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Posted on Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 5 p.m.

Have the courage to speak with your kids about respecting sexual and gender identities

By Scott Beal

Since the beginning of the school year, without really meaning to, I've let this column lapse. It's been a month since my last dispatch. Since then, the following events have been reported:

On September 9, Billy Lucas, 15, hung himself in his family's barn in Greenburg, Ind., after enduring anti-gay bullying at school.

On September 13, Cody J. Barker of Shiocton, Wisc., an openly gay 17-year-old who had planned to start a gay/straight alliance at his high school, took his own life.

On September 19, Seth Walsh, 13, attempted to hang himself from a tree after being targeted by extensive anti-gay bullying in Tehachapi, Calif. He died of his injuries ten days later.

On September 22, Tyler Clementi, 18, jumped off the George Washington Bridge after being the target of anti-gay cyberbullying by his roommate at Rutgers University.

On September 23, Asher Brown, 13, shot himself in the head after enduring anti-gay bullying at school in Harris, Texas.

On September 24, transgendered 16-year-old Chloe Lacey of Clovis, Calif., committed suicide after struggling with anxiety and depression surrounding pressure to "fit in" with social gender norms.

On September 29, Raymond Chase, a 19-year-old openly gay sophomore at Johnson & Wales University in Rhode Island, hung himself in his dormitory.

On October 5, Aiyisha Hassan, a 19-year-old lesbian from Marin County, California, took her own life after personal turmoil which included struggles with her sexual identity.

On October 5, 19-year-old Zach Harrington of Norman, Okla., ended his life after attending a three-hour city council debate marked by venomous pronouncements about the LGBTQ community.

These stories are difficult to read. They should be. Every one of these individuals -- Billy, Cody, Seth, Tyler, Asher, Chloe, Raymond, Aiyisha, and Zach -- should still be alive. They have friends and family who love and miss them. They deserved the same things that we all deserve -- the safety to be themselves without fear of bullying, ostracism, humiliation, or violence. But none of them enjoyed that kind of security, and now none of them are here.

Many commentators (most famously Ellen DeGeneres, Dan Savage, and Neil Patrick Harris) have rightly observed that so many gay suicides in so short a time represents a crisis. Additional voices have pointed out that this reported "sudden rash" of gay suicides is anything but. Jason Kuznicki points out that gay teen suicides are nothing new, and that one third of all teen suicide victims are gay. Zach Despart points out that gay male teens are up to seven times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers. Suicide among queer teenagers is an ongoing crisis, not a sudden flash.

We like to think of Ann Arbor as a bastion of open-minded tolerance. And it might be easier to be a queer teenager here than, say, in Harris, Texas. But it is not easy. During the 2008-09 school year, the Neutral Zone's Riot Youth group conducted an extensive "climate survey" of Ann Arbor Public High Schools. The Riot Youth Climate Survey found that derogatory language toward Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer (LGBTQ) youth is abundant, and that LGBTQ students feel "significantly less safe" than their non-LGBTQ peers.

This is a problem for all of us. I pointed out earlier that every queer teenager who has recently committed suicide has left friends and family behind. By the same token, every bully who made those teenagers' lives hell has friends and family too. We could be those friends and family -- the ones left bereft, or the ones who didn't do enough to counteract a climate of bigotry in which bullying people based on their sexual identity or gender identity is acceptable.

I don't think it's enough for good people simply to avoid being bigoted. Good people need to speak out for the rights of queer individuals, and to openly oppose anti-gay speech and sentiments. Because our silence lets an overtly anti-gay culture run unchecked, with results that are all-too-often tragic.

This is a parenting column. So I am asking you, parents, to have the courage to speak to your children about this. Not to simply avoid it. I know that I, as a parent, have sometimes failed, and have come down on the side of avoidance of difficult or controversial topics. It is hard to talk to kids about bigotry. We sometimes imagine that if we simply avoid discussions of race or sex or class in the house that we will free our children from the kinds of bigotry that swirled around us when we were growing up.

This is naive. We have to be active. We have to find ways to talk to our kids about the spectrum of sexual identities, and to let them know that it's okay for boys to like girls, and for boys to like boys; for girls to like girls, and for girls to like boys. We have to help them understand that if they see or hear someone demeaning someone else because of who they like, or because of how girlish or boyish they act, that such bullying is unacceptable. We have to help them, too, find the courage to speak up against it.

So please. Have courage. Talk to your kids. Let's erode this climate of intolerance in which so many LGBTQ youth suffer.


P.S.: I have been somewhat surprised that there hasn't been more written at AnnArbor.com regarding the recent media reports of gay teen suicides. Therefore I am all the more grateful to Theresa Bassett for her October 2 opinion piece on the issue of bullying against LGBTQ individuals. I join Theresa in hoping that the Saline School Board does the right thing and votes to add sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression to their district's non-discrimination policy.


Scott Beal is a stay-at-home dad.

Comments

bigdreams

Tue, Oct 26, 2010 : 11:28 p.m.

I love what most of you "older" people have said thus far. I am a 19 years old, and a (recently) proclaimed bisexual. Growing up (long story short) I was lesbian until college. My advice to parents is for one, further educated yourself about gender identity. Truth is, it can happen to ANYONE. I have been through the confused and depressed months. The moments where I tried dating a boy and I could only connect with them as a "buddy." No matter what you have known all of your life, I am telling you it is natural. It is very very easy and natural of the brain to like somethings over another, or everything. I agree with the writer all of the way. I, in doing my own studies, feel that education will be the answer to discrimination against gays. As with the Jews and Africans, now we look back like, "The reasons we had to do what we did, make no sense now." As I hope gays will reach that moment where everyone feels bad for their thoughts and actions because homosexuality is apart of being human.

katie

Sat, Oct 23, 2010 : 2:02 p.m.

It is very important that we address this issue and not lose more young lives, which is just heartbreaking to read. As a parent, it is horrifying. One of the things I don't see addressed very frequently is spirituality. It is my belief that this is primarily a spiritual issue. Being fully who you are includes living true to your gender orientation and gender identity. It may appear to be about sex, but it is about living fully as you really are. There is research that supports the position that both gender orientation (LGB) and gender identity (T) involve differences in the brains of individuals. It is not a choice, but a fact of being the unique person you are. Each person deserves to be celebrated and affirmed for who they are. This makes life better for all. It is not an inconvenient truth to be LGBT. People from junior high through college are attempting to clarify their identities, which is ultimately an existential/spiritual issue. A rigidly heterosexist culture is one that finds no joy in any identity, but instead has to enforce a narrow range of choices. For LGBT youth there there are confusing messages everywhere. This makes it difficult to clarify one's identity, to find the beauty in one's unique self. My understanding is that it makes it difficult to clarify ones identity as a heterosexual male or female in a full way as well, but that is a different article. When there is the pain of being targeted, bullied, and scapegoated there is no chance to experience the joy, wonder and beauty of one's own identity. It hurts LGBT youth the most, but it also hurts heterosexual youth in a significant way. If as parents, we want to raise children who are healthy, we need to educate them and not be silent. We need to affirm their discovery of themselves. Thanks for a great article, Scott.

Scott Beal

Sun, Oct 17, 2010 : 11:52 p.m.

"But what is the compassion of men compared to the truth?" I don't know, Scylding. I have a pretty high opinion of compassion, and so have most of the pastors and priests I've come across, not to mention the churchgoers. In my experience of the bible, compassion is pretty big with Jesus, too. In fact, my overall sense of the bible's message suggests that "the truth" is often mysterious, and above our understanding, but that compassion is a consistent demand for anyone who hopes for that "better life."

bedrog

Fri, Oct 15, 2010 : 2:08 p.m.

Good article. Any parent with a good gay kid ( as opposed to one who is a shmuck, sexual identity aside) who unconditionally accepts, loves and nurtures that kid is a better parent.. and human being..than those who dont, whether from religious sanctimony or some other personal malady/failing.

Sierra Hansen

Thu, Oct 14, 2010 : 12:36 p.m.

This article is wonderful. It is so gently courageous, and I'm sure that Scott knows that inevitably, there will be people who believe that he is biased and so won't see his point. It is this that makes me sad, because the point is not to convey his opinion. It is to highlight a general statistic that speaks volumes all by itself, and say that suicides of LGBT folks can be prevented by simple courage and kindness. I do not personally believe that there is any condemnation of the "right" here (and believe me, I hate that bipartisan split that places us in such rigid categories). Also, to address the various people who've posted that clearly are not in a place where they are ready to be either courageous, kind, or tolerant of everyone, I will ask this: Personally, if you engage in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex and feel nothing, if you try to fit into what is considered moral, sane or pervasively normal ever and feel nothing (no sexual love, no feelings of adoration) why would you choose that? Why would you choose that when someone else that makes you feel lovely in every way is available? It has nothing to do with "who treats you right", it is a feeling at your very core that is or isn't there. Accepting it outwardly is difficult as it is, there should not be possible pain associated with being the human being you were made to be. As someone who's experienced the awkward this-isn't-right feelings with the opposite sex and known others who have as well, it upsets me when I see that a stepdad is essentially bullying his stepdaughter in his own home, won't accept her and encourages her to not accept herself. That is a set-up for suicide. Seeing that post, and the fact that he was willing to reveal his true identity and therefore set up his stepdaughter to be recognized as a closeted lesbian who is being smothered, makes me so uncomfortable and really, really upsets me. Everybody deserves love, "in a rainbow" of identities. I think this video is symbolic of what can eat away at an LGBT individual that doesn't accept him/herself. Edit it out if you think it really isn't relevant, but I think it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU8EgviRiKg

pseudo

Thu, Oct 14, 2010 : 12:02 p.m.

@SME2: I have a response to your query: first teach your children that part of tolerance may include keeping their mouth closed. Believe as you wish, behave as you wish but at the point where you are telling someone else what to do or that they are morally wrong and bad in God's eyes, realize that you just opened the door for them to speak right back at ya. Free Speech is not your right to any anything without response. It is your right to do so and not have the government put you in jail. Your fellow citizens to get to respond. Another consideration might be to understand that we are all God's children. God is our judge, not you or your kids. Don't set them up to be one, it is not their job. Second: You are right, certainly people who feel that a separation of church and state is required by our constitution feel that the Morman's church's meddling in California's political process by dumping millions of dollars into hateful fear-mongering advertisements and into that campaign was wrong. Protesting that church's behavior is called for. See above. Going beyond protest is, well, bullying. Outside of schools it is defined by a series of laws depending on the behavior: vandalism, stalking, hate crime etc. Sucks to be afraid. Sucks to feel like the world will hurt you for your beliefs (or who you are). Sucks to be externally judged by people you feel are wrong. Yup, sucks.

Scott Beal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 10:51 p.m.

Nicole Parker Stallworth - I appreciate your affirming that we do need to teach children not to bully gays, and that suicide is a tragedy in every individual case. And I agree that queer people deserve our compassion, support, and love (in fact, I think everyone deserves compassion, support, and love). Apart from those important points, I disagree stringently with the positions represented in your post. I recognize that some Christians and some non-Christians have reasons to "oppose homosexuality" but I do not accept that they are good reasons. The links provided -- particularly the last one -- purport to link to scientific information but instead link to blog posts which are snarky in tone, with no sheen of scientific rigor or objectivity. The American Psychological Association -- the largest association of psychologists in the world -- has concluded after extensive research and peer review that lesbian, gay, and bisexual people are not "suffering" from anything other than the prejudice of those who refuse to accept them. And it is this prejudice -- not queerness itself -- which causes harm. More information available here: http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/index.aspx

Scott Beal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 10:29 p.m.

sme2: Your point is well taken. Bullying of people based on their religious identity is unacceptable. I am sorry for the verbal abuse and intimidation you and your family have faced. I agree, we should try to eliminate all bullying, not just bullying of one group of people. Still, when bullying of one particular class of people is such a pervasive, severe problem, then it is irresponsible and dishonest to ignore the specific context. Focusing on the problem of anti-gay bullying does nothing to hamper the cause of eliminating bullying-in-general. It doesn't take anything away from anybody. The fact is, if we want to honestly confront the conditions that have led to so many LGBTQ teen suicides, we must recognize the culture of anti-gay bigotry which makes these tragedies possible.

Nicole

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 5:22 p.m.

I think there are several difficult truths here. "Data concerning young homosexuals is somewhat unreliable. It appears that about one in three teen aged suicides is by a gay or lesbian. Since homosexuals represent only about 5% of the population, gays and lesbians are greatly over-represented." (Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_fact.htm) This statement seems to be about 10 years old. So homosexuals and suicide is not a new crisis even if it has spiked recently. It seems to me that there is something inherent about homosexuality, especially together with the emergence of sexuality, that is particularly difficult, including but not limited to bullying. Catholic teaching, rather than offering justification for bullying, recognizes that homosexuality is a difficult cross to bear, and those who suffer it (as Mitch says, "why would a person choose to be gay?") deserve our compassion, support, and love. So, yes, parents need to teach their children to respond to such people in a compassionate and loving way and guard against any tendency to bully for this (or any other) reason. This does not mean that parents need to teach that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. Children are *latent* sexual beings, and need guidance and emotional maturity to process complex issues like (hetero)sexuality, much more homosexuality. Catholics, Christians and other people have very good reasons to oppose homosexuality (though no doubt most homosexuals would strongly disagree, and I won't go into such reasons here). It would be naive to deny that there exists a set of political goals which together entail an agenda (by simple definition), although perhaps an article decrying bullying is a less-than-ideal forum to discuss it. Certainly it makes it harder to be understood, because those on both sides really do generally agree that suicide is a tragedy no matter the victim. I agree that there is a crisis. I also agree that children deserve to be children. I don't agree that homosexuality does no harm. And I don't agree that there's no need to teach children not to bully gays. Here's a recent piece about bullying and tolerance from a Catholic perspective: http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/theanchoress/2010/10/12/bullying-tolerance-the-disconnect/ For a response to research that states that kids do as well or better with gay parents, I recommend this post, and the essay it links to: http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/2010/06/not-that-well-adjusted.html.

HaeJee

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 2:18 p.m.

@Heidi - are you kidding me?? Did I just step back in time to write that? In all seriousness, I was raised in your puritan viewed life and that alone put me into a depression. I am not going to go into details on why I completely disagree with your logic. It is too obvious as other commenters have already pointed out. I am a proud mother of 4 beautiful children. Thankfully to opening rights for interracial couples to marry in the 60s. I decided when I was pregnant to parent my children with honesty and openness. I did not want to make the same mistakes our older generations made, but learn from their successes and failures, i.e. teaching against bigotry. I believe Ann Arbor schools have done a good job teaching many of the children tolerance and understanding. We try to support it and compliment it at home. My children know that my husband and I have had gay and lesbian friends and we have never discussed it as an issue. They watch us as examples on treating others as how we would want to be treated. Our children are not bullies and have always been respected by many other children because they were accepting. What they are not tolerant of is bullies or self-centered kids. When we see their parents, we then understand why. The apple never falls to far from the tree. Our children know that if they choose to be with the same sex partner, we would not love them any less or be disappointed. We want them to feel a sense of security and love from us that isnt conditional. I dont want them to feel afraid to disappoint us and hide who they are. Being raised by Christian parents made me feel that love was always conditional. Parents that do this will only create a lifelong strain in their relationship.

FLC

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 1:36 p.m.

Also, sorry if I sound bossy - I know I'm commenting a lot. I just feel pretty invested in this discussion. I'll try to sit quiet for a little while here :)

Klayton

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 1:33 p.m.

How do we know that God is not gay? She may be....

FLC

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 12:32 p.m.

@KeepingItReal: I appreciate your thoughtful response, and I think we may be less in disagreement than we may appear to one another. I am in full agreement that a discussion of race dynamics and discrimination within the mainstream gay rights movements is necessary and important, and I know and want to support plenty of GLBTQ people of color who are involved in challenging white privilege as it is manifested within the GLBTQ community. I also agree that the issue raised in the article is important, and if there are ways that all of us on this thread can be more conscious of the workings of race as we discuss the impact of family discussion on GLBTQ-specific bullying, I for one would love to hear and use them - the queer and allied community should be a safe space for everyone. @everyone else: I'm getting pretty downhearted and depressed about the bickering, baiting and, well, yeah, bullying, that this discussion seems to be devolving into. I have responses to a lot of statements that were made, but to make them all will probably feel exhausting to me and feel to you like I'm running my mouth. So instead, I'm thinking more about the original topic of the article, and I have questions, if anyone is interested in engaging with them: -Without passing judgment on other families, how do you feel like the way you were raised impacted your feelings towards sexuality and gender? -How have experiences of bullying (both being bullied and being the bully) shaped your attitude toward kids and raising them? -If you've had a successful intergenerational conversation about sexuality, gender identity or GLBTQ issues (either with an adult as a kid or with a kid as an adult), what do you think made it work? How did you talk about it? -Educators: what signs do you look for to tell when a kid is being bullied, and do you have advice for parents (of either the bullies or the bullied) about what messages best work to prevent children from mistreating one another? Obviously, this discussion is huge, heated, and multifaceted, and it could make sense to take it in any number of directions. But those are questions that point the way toward practical answers for reducing the harassment that kids experience over issues of sexuality, gender and gender identity, so they're questions I'd be interested in hearing answers to, and maybe using this discussion as a place of strategy-sharing can help people on all sides keep a cool head - I know I'm having difficulty doing so.

Corey

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 12:20 p.m.

@sme2 I don't think anyone said that religious intolerance is any less than any other intolerance. However, just saying that getting rid of ALL bullying will get rid of the problems that the LGBT community experiences is ignorant. The reason I say this is that you will still teach your children that there is something wrong with them against "god's will". So that will spawn indirect forms of hatred and judgment. So long as there is a group of people who think they can "save" homosexuals there will always be a problem. Get over it and let people live their lives.

sme2

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 11:18 a.m.

Scott Beal. Unfortunately, there has been extreme intolerance against my religion for opposing Prop 8 in California. People feared for their lives from the backlash. My religion was merely putting forth our beliefs that "marriage" should be between a man and a woman. Nothing more. My parents home was vandalized because of their beliefs. My husband had to put up with derogatory remarks about his religion repeatedly from his high school basketball coach. I have been berated because of them, so I know full well what intolerance feels like. I wonder what my children will have to face. I believe in the Colombine shootings, some were killed for their belief in Christ. If these aren't insistence of bullying, I don't know what is. Religious intolerance can be just a severe as any other. I just think it is important that we focus on eliminating ALL bullying, not just toward one group of people.

Scott Beal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 11:03 a.m.

Thank you again to everyone who has read the article, and to those who have shared their perspectives in the comments. In consideration of Stefanie's reminder to stay on topic, let me summarize my position. Being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender is NOT a lifestyle choice. But supporting a climate of hatred against LGBTQ people IS a choice -- with damaging consequences. Let us not make this choice. Let us instead use our voices to create greater respect and acceptance for LGBTQ people. Let those of us who are parents, in particular, not shy away from this responsibility with our own children.

David Briegel

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 10:12 a.m.

A person once called the Bible a "reinterpreted, regurgitated piece of classic patriarchal, misogynistic mythmaking that says exactly what the rulers of the church re-wrote it to say". But if you wish to quote all that old testament stuff go ahesd. We can talk smiting and stoning just like the Taliban all you want. If you wish to discuss the new testament love that Jesus taught and preached that is a whole different religion. Mr builder, you speak of man boy love in this discussion? You left out bestiality! These have no place in this discussion. There are no victims of homesexuality and there is no agenda and no promotion nor praise. Those are figments of your imagination. Julie, the reason they can't teach what you suggest is because they don't believe it. They believe they are superior and their "scripture" gives them cover! See above. Scott, I really admire you for bringing up this difficult subject. Your patience is remarkable. And we thought Ann Arbor was an enlightened community.

Terry

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 9:28 a.m.

Oh so many points you touched on. Let me start with the tax paying and children busing. So you think gays shouldn't pay taxes for buses or schools because they aren't allowed to marry? Are you kidding me?!! Let's say we change the moral fabric of our country and allow gays to marry.... YOU STILL CAN NOT PROCREATE!! What other rights are gay individuals being denied? Being placed on your partners insurance? You do realize the reason they began this practice for married couples was to allow for the wife to stay home and tend to the children. This again is an issue a gay couple does not face, hence use the insurance your company offers. As far as protection.you are protected as far as anybody is proctected in this country! Nobody is allowed to physically harm you it is called a hate crime if they were to harm you physically. Please don't come in and spout false statements used to incite hate. The scripture denounces homosexuality...FACT.... the mere reference to this is not intolerence, it is factual basis for unacceptance. What is your reasoning for picketing? This makes no sense to me. There are extremist who picket these very practices, but I fear if the Christian population began resorting to these measures you would scream intolerence in an even louder voice. I am glad to hear you were raised in a Christian religon (not my religon of choice, but Christian none the less). I agree with allowing Christ to judge, but when homosexuality is being praised as an alternative but acceptable lifestyle I have serious concerns and reservations. I am going to have a child in the next couple of months and I do not want him/her and with all the other influences they will face this is just another influence I will have to shield it from. I am always cautious of my comments toward people with different lifestyles, but I will not conceed my beliefs to make somebody feel more comfortable with their choices.

KeepingItReal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 9:19 a.m.

@Scott/FLC: I appreciate your effort in bringing this issue to a community discussion. It is needed. However, my concern is that in its effort to achieve civil rights for its targeted group, the Gay/Lesbian movement has basically co-opted the civil rights movement, and in some instances has displayed discriminatory behavior toward blacks and others, yet expect black to support their cause. This is not an oversimplified position especially when African Americans are discriminated by Gay/Lesbians in the job market, housing, health care,etc. I have no problem accepting the Gay/Lesbian lifestyle but I do have problems when Gay/Lesbians compare their plight to that of African Americans and expect African Americans to support them in spite of the discriminatory behavior toward them. What I find even more dishearthening is that there is no definitive statement from the African American community as to how blacks should position themselves in this debate.

FLC

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 9:07 a.m.

@Terry: I think we need to be very careful and specific here in defining "acceptance" and "life choices." Yes, we all face adversity, and this is, unfortunately, a world where everyone needs a thick skin. There is, however, a HUGE difference between the day-to-day, variable, and unpredictable adversity doled out to all of us from birth and the constant, normalized and *legalized* adversity faced by members of marginalized groups. You've defined yourself as a straight white able-bodied male. I think it would be presumptuous of me to assume that you are therefore unaware of of issues of discrimination and intolerance. As a more general statement, though, I think I can safely say that straight, white, male, able-bodied and otherwise "average" or "majority" people do have more *choice* than marginalized people do in terms of recognizing discrimination. Their private lives are not regulated by the law, they are granted the full rights of citizenship and personhood as a matter of course, and when they are harassed, it is for the most part because of *individualized* "life choices," which is, I believe, the kind of adversity you, Terry, were talking about. Those of us who do not fit into that majority - people of color and/or women and/or GLBTQ-identified and/or disabled, etc - are (though very different from one another in many aspects of our experience) similar in that harassment and discrimination towards us is broadly sanctioned by the state and by society, and is not related to our *individual* "life choices" but is dealt us because we belong to a group we had no choice in being part of. One of the most pernicious aspects of privilege is that it makes itself invisible to those who hold it. Those who don't don't have that luxury. I would hope that the experiences of harassment we have in common would make us more, rather than less, sensitive to the experiences of harassment that separate us, and more, rather than less, interested in evening the field and eliminating the unjustly particular suffering of the marginalized so that we all experience only that suffering which comes of being human, and none of us that which comes of being treated as if we were less than such.

Gahl Liberzon

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 9:07 a.m.

Bill Wilson, I believe there has been some confusion in terms and heated posting between you and those you have been commenting with here, including the author (who is a friend of mine), but a lot of this seems to be more intellectual misunderstanding than actual disagreement. If it would help, I'd like to clarify: When scott or others have referred to race or sexuality as socially constructed identities, they are in no way saying different skin colors or sexual preferences don't exist. The idea of a socially constructed identity simply means that the assignment of one to one of those groups or another is largely based around the people surrounding them. To use race as an example, many dark skinned puerto ricans and south asians (e.g. indians) are identified by the dominant culture as being black, even if ethnically, familially, or nationally they have no african ancestry they are not of the people we consider black people to be. If they are treated poorly as a result of that identification (ie: of other people believing they are black), it is certainly still racism, regardless of whether or not they bear social or historical ties to the black community. Similarly, there are many white americans whose families have come from Italy would not have been considered white a hundred years ago; they would have been considered Italian. Italian-Americans didn't somehow become less italian over the past hundred years, nor did they become more white; its simply that being Italian (as a social construct) was no longer racially significant to the dominant culture; as a result, those people were considered white, white people who were also italian. The problem as pertains to LGBTQ bullying is not of children mouthing disagreement to sexual activity they're witnessing being engaged by queer teens; in both straight and gay cultures to people do such things privately. The problem of LGBTQ bullying is that of children harassing other children because they BELIEVE those children are attracted to children they are not supposed to; because they've been identified as different in a way that is significant to the dominant culture. Whether they are queer themselves or not doesn't change the bullying, because socially they're considered to be queer. Lots of straight teenagers face LGBTQ bullying that is just as real and hurtful, just as many puerto ricans suffer real racism when they are identified by others as black, regardless of whether or not they are. As for the bullying, let me be clear on this: victims of LGBTQ-based bullying are not "hearing disagreement" after declaring their sexuality to others; they're being harassed verbally, humiliated, and even attacked because others believe them to be in some way sexually deviant. We cannot minimize the treatment they are receiving to an expression of disagreement, because it is not an argument these kids are having. Again, the victims of bullying are not asking their bullies what they think about their lifestyle; they trying to go to school. Furthermore, even if the children are openly homosexual (and many of them are), that does not in any way mean that they are sexually active. It is simply a marker of feelings, a boy saying he likes another boy instead of a girl. Say what you will about someone's actions, but feelings, sexual attraction, those aren't things we decide for ourselves. No straight man wakes up and says "today, I think I'll have a crush Lisa from accounting." These feelings, these desires are the effect of biology, and whether or not one views acting on them as right or wrong, one should still be able to acknowledge these feelings exist in a public space without fear of ridicule, ostracization or violence. Even if homosexual desire itself (as you implied with the story of your step-daughter) was some sort of defense mechanism (and for the record I completely disagree with you, but for the sake of hypothetical argument, I'll grant), those feelings would still be completely real and valid to those experiencing them, and those people should be able to go to school without harassment. School is after all, a place they go to learn, not to debate their sexuality. -g.

RobRoy

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 8:56 a.m.

Good article. I always laugh when people talk about the "radical homosexual agenda". The LGBTQ community doesnt have ANY agenda other than being treated with civility and afforded the same rights that straight couples currently enjoy. Instead of embracing the fact that gay partners want to enter into monogamous relationships, they are demonized. Seems like they are damned if they do and damned if they dont. For those folks that claim being gay is a choice- lets not forget there are PLENTY of gay taxpayers that pay taxes to bus around the children straight couples "chose" to have. I think if gays arent good enough to be afforded equal rights and protections, then their tax dollars shouldnt be good enough either to pay for the "choice" it is to have a child. Funny how that isnt so... For those folks that invoke Scripture as an excuse to be intolerant--shame on you. The main tenet of Christ was acceptance and forgiveness. I will leave the judging to Christ rather than any ignorant fool with an opinion. If you want to invoke Scripture at least be consistent. Picket outside abortion clinics, picket outside divorce attorneys offices, disown all your divorced friends and tell them they have no rights and that they are horrible people--how about picketing the churches harboring child predators? I was raised a strict Catholic and my parents always taught me that treating everyone with dignity and respect trumped anything I learned in church. Social injustice should never be tolerated.

Terry

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 8:38 a.m.

Tony- There is a lot of hypocrocy in the churches undoubtedly, but there is no condridiction or hypocricy in what the scripture clearly states. I have no problem pointing to biblical teachings as a basis for my disaproval of the homosexual lifestyle. There are going to be bad seeds in any organization, but those bad seeds should not take away from the beliefs and structures of the organization.

Tony Livingston

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 8:31 a.m.

And I disagree in return, Scot. My point is that no amount of propaganda of any kind can change a person. There are so many people from anti gay religious backgrounds that are in fact practicing homosexuals. Some are open and some are secretive. The biggest argument against gay people is always religion. It is very important to point out the hypocrisy and wrong headedness.

Scott Beal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 8:11 a.m.

Terry -- There's no fog of liberal political correctness here. I am speaking real. I can't fathom why should not teach our kids that they deserve to be accepted for who they are. KeepingItReal -- I have not seen higher levels of racism among LGBTQ people than I have among non-LGBTQ people. I don't think it's fair to generalize the broad LGBTQ population as discriminatory against African Americans. It is true that LGBTQ people of color often face greater levels of discrimination and intolerance than white LGBTQ people. At least two of the recently reported LGBTQ teen suicide victims -- Raymond Chase and Aiyisha Hassan -- were people of color. I think it is a mistake to characterize the struggle for equality as a zero sum game. We need to fight against racism, and we need to fight against homophobia. Improving the liberty of LGBTQ people does nothing to curtail the liberty of African Americans. And vice versa. Tony Livingston -- I disagree. I think the problem is not that homophobia is hypocritical, but that it is wrong. I don't think that casting blanket aspersions on Christian ministers does anything to advance this conversation.

FLC

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 8:03 a.m.

@Keeping It Real: I agree with some of what you're saying, but I think it simplifies the issue. Yes, there are absoutely white (often male) privileged ADULT gays and lesbians who receive a disproportionate amount of media attention, leaving an image of the GLBTQ community as white and upper-class. And that segment of the community has engaged in racism more than once, and should be held accountable to the same degree as everyone else. (I myself am not always entirely comfortable with politics within the media-defined "queer community," although I consider myself part of it.) And yes, race is absolutely still a factor in bullying and discrimination, and it would be folly to suggest otherwise. However, to set GLBTQ issues up as if they are competing for space with issues of race is to erase the experience of GLBTQ people of color and working-and-lower-class GLBTQ people, to ignore the specific bullying of the queer-perceived-or-identified among children, especially in spaces where moderating adults are complicit or not present, and to set up a zero-sum game wherein we have a limit set on tolerance and compassion and every marginalizeed group has to compete for their share. I don't believe there is such a game; I don't believe our capacity for compassion is so petty. Also, many of these comments seem to me to be proving my earlier point about the lack of familial support available to queer-identified OR questioning youth. Kids get hit with the double punch of being taken less seriously because of their youth and being expected to keep their queer identity secret in order to gain acceptance. This goes a long way towards explaining the importance of "chosen family" in the queer community: finding people who believe in and support you and making family of them. I've engaged in this even with the support of my own immediate family, and I've provided chosen family to my friends. There is, however, no explaining the degree of damage done by families who refuse to look beyond whatever "values" they've been taught and see their own children suffering. I can't understand it and I will "tolerate" it better when it stops leaving irreducible marks on people I love.

Steve in MI

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 7:37 a.m.

@Scott - excellent article; thank you for shining a light on this issue! To those who are arguing the "it's a behavior" angle: I support your right to be Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. That's your choice, that's your behavior, and in America, that's your right. I don't get to decide whether you as a Muslim have the right to hold down a job or rent a house; I don't get to decide whether practicing Christians should be allowed to marry each other. LGBTQ Americans are looking for those same rights in return. And yes, that includes the right of two consenting adults to choose, out of their own free will, to marry each other. Is it really so un-American in your view that a teenager can have a crush on someone without being beaten or driven to suicide?

Scott Beal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 7:36 a.m.

Also, let me point out that "queer", while historically an anti-gay epithet, has been reclaimed by the LGBTQ community as a blanket term inclusive of a broad scope of identities including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender individuals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer#As_a_contemporary_antonym_of_heteronormative

Terry

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 7:33 a.m.

It is a shame people feel they can hide behind the church. People who avoid "coming out" by entering the ministry is dispicable. Anybody of TRUE Christian faith would not act in the manner we have seen recently. On another note; to point out a hand full of ministers as a black-eye to any religon is as dangerous and misguided as pointing to a hand full of gay men and claim they are pedophiles. Stereotype are just another type of ignorance uneducated people cling to. Just to clear this up I am NOT calling anybody a pedophile, as I know how people like to copy and paste errant quotes to stir heated debates. I am tolerant but unaccepting of the gay lifestyle, I am slightly less tolerant of having the gay lifestyle promoted as something we MUST embrace and cater to.

Scott Beal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 7:26 a.m.

Bill Wilson: Discriminating against someone because of their perceived race is bigotry. And discriminating against someone because of their perceived sexual identity and/or gender identity is bigotry too. Whatever you think you can or can't see on the outside, people DO judge one another's sexual and/or gender identity by sight alone every day. These 13 year-old-kids suffering extensive anti-gay bullying at school -- what do you think that's based on, if not people's outward observations and judgments? Not all victims of anti-gay bullying are gay. They are identified and stigmatized as gay by others. All of this strikes me as largely beside the point. No one should be tormented because of who they are on the inside anymore than they should be tormented because of who they are on the outside. No one deserves to be told that "no one would know if you just kept it to yourself." NO ONE.

KeepingItReal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 6:49 a.m.

I am opposed to discrimination of any sort and having read the recent stories about bullying, I believe that we are now entering a phase in our society where there need to be major education placed on helping people to understand the reality and depth of diversity in our society. Whether we like it or not, these differences must be accepted and accommodated if we are all going to strive to build healthy communities. However, there is an important issue that must be addressed by the Gay/Lesbian community and that is their tendency to discriminate against others especially African Americans. I can name numerous instances where Gays/Lesbians enjoy greater freedoms and access to society resources than do African Americans and I can name several situations(documented, locally) of discrimination by Gays/Lesbians toward Blacks, yet the African American community, strangely enough is completely silent when it comes to addressing this issue. For Gays/Lesbians to compare their cause to Blacks and then discriminate against them is at the least hypocritical and for blacks not to have an active voice in this matter is shameful.

Terry

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 5:06 a.m.

This unfortunately is not an issue of intolerance or ignorance. Bullying has been around for thousands of years. There are going to be bullies from kindergarden through the end of our careers. We need to stop teaching our kids that they can chose to any lifestyle they want and everybody must accept it. We need to teach them if you chose to be openly gay people are going to disprove of that decission and you are going to have to be strong enough and confident enough in that choice to accept this criticism. Yes I do belive homosexuallity is a choice since I also believe in God. To say He created a person to be gay, which is something explicitlly denounced in scripture, is saying God messed up. If we could just get away from all this liberal political correctness and start talking REAL without worring about the persecution of all these activists maybe we could resolve some of the issues and knock down some of the walls that seperate people. We have people almost afraid to step outside their comfort zones of their 'click' because they may accidentally offend somebody.

Bill Wilson

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 2:47 a.m.

Well, no. Race is a social construct that cannot be determined by visual observation alone. Even if your categories are only "black" and "white", which is itself extremely reductive, one cannot make visual determinations which are socially consistent across statistically significant populations. Interesting... so unless the KKK can positively idenfify the Mandinka from the Jamaican, they haven't really commited any racial prejudice. But more immediately, I worry for your step-daughter, based on the impression you have given of your interactions with her. Based on your posts, it appears you have told her that no one would know she was queer if she didn't profess it openly, and that you have implied to her that there's something shameful about her desires and/or her behavior, and that they are only a phase or a coping mechanism she's adopted, rather than a feature of her personality. Again, I think you're revealing more about your own intolerance. Queer?? You do appear to have some Archie Bunker in you. But not so fast here. Tell us how it is that you can spot a "queer" by sight, alone. If you can do it with your eyes, you must be able to capture it on a camera. Are they a different color or shape? Does one require Photoshop to see them? All of this serves to minimize her feelings. What do you hope to convince her of? As a parent, I hope always to provide a safe and secure environment for my children to be who they are. What gains could you hope to make by questioning that? I hoped nothing. I simply pointed out the truth: Like you, her need for acceptance from those who would disagree with did more to define her own intolerance than display any enlightenment.

Scott Beal

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 2:09 a.m.

Bill Wilson -- my first point of departure comes here: "I simply pointed out to my step-daughter that unlike race, sexual preference cannot be determined by visual observation alone: behavior must be attached." Well, no. Race is a social construct that cannot be determined by visual observation alone. Even if your categories are only "black" and "white", which is itself extremely reductive, one cannot make visual determinations which are socially consistent across statistically significant populations. But more immediately, I worry for your step-daughter, based on the impression you have given of your interactions with her. Based on your posts, it appears you have told her that no one would know she was queer if she didn't profess it openly, and that you have implied to her that there's something shameful about her desires and/or her behavior, and that they are only a phase or a coping mechanism she's adopted, rather than a feature of her personality. All of this serves to minimize her feelings. What do you hope to convince her of? As a parent, I hope always to provide a safe and secure environment for my children to be who they are. What gains could you hope to make by questioning that?

Bill Wilson

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 1:45 a.m.

Sexual orientation is not a choice. It is not the result of an agenda. The bullying that gays and lesbians of all ages are subjected to is absolutely real and has absolutely led to the deaths of too many people, both through suicide and through "gay bashing" murders. MGB, I think you're quite mistaken. Certainly, for many (and probably most), homosexuality isn't something they've simply chosen: they are biologically "hard wired," so to speak, in that way. However, for some, it's a defense mechanism. My step-daughter is an example. I became her step-dad when she was 16 yrs old, and she had been let down and ignored by every man in her immediate personal life up to that point. So she choose behaviors that would gain her attention by shocking those around her. She would purposely leave vivid books and magazines in inappropriate places where unsuspecting people could stumble upon them. I'll never forget my very Victorian aunt's face when she came across some smut my daughter has placed in a stack of books I has set aside for my aunt. I think people like my step-daughter are the ones who sometimes leave the lifestyle, if they actually address their emotional issues through some type of therapy.

Bill Wilson

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 1:29 a.m.

Bill Wilson -- I think you are misinformed about both race and sexuality, because neither is an absolute category defined either by appearance or behavior. These truths are self-evident to me, but I understand that they are not so to everyone. Scott, I said nothing of the kind. I simply pointed out to my step-daughter that unlike race, sexual preference cannot be determined by visual observation alone: behavior must be attached. If we line up twenty different people, we can certainly tell black from white, but we cannot tell homosexual from heterosexual: we must interact. If you believe that you can, then frankly, you've got a little Archie Bunker in you. As for your truths being "self-evident," I cannot comment, for you haven't stated any. You've posted opinions. Like I told my step-daughter (and SB has noted), certainly, there are many other people in the world who hold differing opinions. And like her, your need for acceptance from those who would disagree with you does more to define your own intolerance than display any enlightenment.

johnnya2

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 12:17 a.m.

@Bill Wilsson Good point. So when you line those peoiple up, can you tell their religion. I guess if you disagree with what the catholics teach it is ok to tell your kids they are too stupid to know better, Compare gayness to RELIGION or POLITICAL affiliation. These are two CHOICES. So you think it is ok to discriminate base don those characteristics? Make yourself clear, so we all know how deep your stupid bigotry is @ jaded You said: " Put away the intellectual garbage and just look at it for what it is". I think that ssums up your position, and those like you. Quit using your brain, Pretty telling that is YOUR argument. Sorry, I can not turn off my brain. Obviously it is easy for those like you If A2.com chooses to delete these for "personal attacks" they need to grow a set and delete those making a PERSONAL attack against gay people. No matter how they cloak it, it is PERSONAL. If somebody came in here and started spouting lies about any persons religion you would delete it, but you allow attacks on peoples sexuality.

johnnya2

Wed, Oct 13, 2010 : 12:04 a.m.

"when my children or I tell someone our beliefs about homosexuality, will we be respected or does tolerance only work one way" your beliefs do not MATTER. Just because you are bigot about your beliefs does not make it acceptable. I do not have to tolerate Fred Phelps. I do not have to tolerate Nazis., I do not have to tolerate the KKK. Your BS line about hate the sin, love the sinner is the PURE evil of the world. You are the same as Fred Phelps. It is putting lipstick on the bigoted PIG you are. I know this will be deleted by A2.com, because they do not have the guts to leave it.

Scott Beal

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 11:54 p.m.

sbbuilder -- as others have pointed out, pedophilia, child marriage, and stoning have victims. They all involve a person or persons in power exerting control over a person or persons without power. Can you explain how this is any sort of decent corollary to LGBTQ identity? This appeal to moral relativism is tired. I am not a moral relativist. I believe in the right of every individual to self-determination. Pedophilia and child marriage restrict self-determination, whereas the free expression and full realization of one's LGBTQ identity are crucial to self-determination. It's true that it would be more difficult to speak out against homophobia in Riyadh than it is here. That says more about the unfortunate political situation in Riyadh than it does the rightness of homophobia. As a (I suspect) patriotic American, you of all people should understand this. Bill Wilson -- I think you are misinformed about both race and sexuality, because neither is an absolute category defined either by appearance or behavior. These truths are self-evident to me, but I understand that they are not so to everyone. Here are a couple of links with more information: http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-x.htm http://www.utdallas.edu/counseling/selfhelp/sexual-identity.html

momgoblue

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 11:25 p.m.

We lived in A2 for many years, and my daughter had many friends who had same-gender parents. When she asked me why her friend had two moms, I answered her honestly, "Some women fall in love with women, just like other women fall in love with men." In our family, we hold the belief that people don't "choose" to be gay or straight -- they are who and how they are and that is just fine. I have a friend whose teenaged son has started cutting himself because of his struggles over coming out. He has a loving family and supportive friends, but lives in a world where he knows some people will condemn him just for being who he is. Sexual orientation is not a choice. It is not the result of an agenda. The bullying that gays and lesbians of all ages are subjected to is absolutely real and has absolutely led to the deaths of too many people, both through suicide and through "gay bashing" murders. I am grateful to Scott Beal for raising this topic. Several people I love are LGBTQ, and comparing them to pedophiles and perverts is disgusting and insulting. If many of the comments on this board are any indication of the world we live in, it is no wonder that the bullying of these people is so pervasive.

Scott Beal

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 11:23 p.m.

Thank you to everyone who has read the article and taken the time to comment. I appreciate that people are paying attention. I feel as if the comments section is taking on a life of its own, beyond my ability to keep up. Still, there are a few points I would like to address, so I will do my best. sme2: Thank you for your commitment to teach your children to treat everyone with kindness and respect. If this commitment were universal, I feel like we would be much better off. The question about whether "tolerance only works one way" is one I have heard before, and one which strikes me as disingenuous in context. Simply put, there is no culture of intolerance against Christians in this country. In regards to the specific events which my article addresses, there is no recent rash of teens who have committed suicide because of anti-Christian bullying, nor statistics which show that Christian youth are more likely to attempt suicide than their non-Christian peers. So it is deceptive to imply that some equivalence exists, and that the "real question" is not how we should respect LGBTQ people, but how we should respect anti-LGBTQ people. I have similar trouble with the class of responses (not just here, but in the wider conversation that has taken place) which suggest that bullying-in-general is the culprit here, and that all this attention to the victims' sexual identities is misguided. Bullying-in-general IS an issue, certainly. Both I and my children have dealt with it in ways that are serious and severe. You will never see me minimize it. But to look at the cases before us and then to deny that a culture of intolerance for queer people is at work would be an act of willful ignorance. In fact, I think that looking at a clear case of anti-gay bullying resulting in suicide and saying, "well all bullying is bad," is exactly the kind of personal erasure of gay people that creates a climate in which people can believe that their sexual identity is so unspeakable that they cannot live with it. We need to face facts and recognize that anti-gay bullying is not simply an accidental corollary to bullying-in-general. Heidi, I disagree with you on virtually all counts, for the reasons cited by several other commenters (e.g., Susan Montgomery, Mitch, and Julie). Jaded in Ann Arbor -- I confess that I am puzzled. I was raised Methodist. I've read the bible. I understand that the Lord made us in his image; that he is all-knowing, all-seeing, and all-powerful. Gay people exist, so it stands to reason that the Lord made them that way. Why would a loving and just Lord do this if he wanted us to treat them with anything short of love and justice?

say it plain

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 11:15 p.m.

@sbbuilder said "and yet we are asked to 'agree to disagree' with those who think that homosexuality is OK". Yes, you are indeed asked to agree to disagree! I like that about the U.S. versus, say, Riyadh.

Bill Wilson

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 11:13 p.m.

Also, Bill Wilson: Firstly, what are you talking about in relation to race? Really. PBS actually has a game where they give you a bunch of pictures of people and allow you to group them into races... out of 10 years of assigning this my teacher said no one has ever gotten it right. Anyways, we're drifting. Not to be rude, but I think your teacher is pulling your leg. Any person of color will tell you that often times, they are segregated by behavior directly related to their race. Secondly, what do you mean when you say "Behavior alone, defines one's sexuality"? Are you saying that being LGBTQ is a choice? I don't understand. WHY would someone choose to be gay? See Mitch. Is this what you were saying, by behavior? That's pretty simple, too. Homosexuals are human beings. They enjoy the same things heterosexuals do: a walk in the park, a hockey game, a good burger, etc. The only difference: their behavior in the proverbial bedroom. Like I told my step-daughter, it's only the people you tell, who know.

Allusion

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 10:58 p.m.

Alright. Here is a question. So... two heterosexual parents teach their children that it is not okay to "like" people of the same sex. BUT, What happens if the child of these two parents, is LBGTQ? I presume there would be some huge issues of self-hatred and confusion and general stress going on... inside the child's head. Actually, I'm not even presuming. I just don't understand how this type of parental education could benefit a child. Also, Bill Wilson: Firstly, what are you talking about in relation to race? Really. PBS actually has a game where they give you a bunch of pictures of people and allow you to group them into races... out of 10 years of assigning this my teacher said no one has ever gotten it right. Anyways, we're drifting. Secondly, what do you mean when you say "Behavior alone, defines one's sexuality"? Are you saying that being LGBTQ is a choice? I don't understand. WHY would someone choose to be gay? See Mitch. Is this what you were saying, by behavior? Thirdly, sure, people have the right to voice opinions. But... I think you're alluding to the idea that if someone's gay it's okay to harass them (or forcefully voice your opinion in a way that would torture a person and make them feel horrible), BECAUSE they came out. It sounds like you're saying, "Gay people are asking for it" Which is really crazy. Does someone's existence give you the right to insult them? That'just mean and bullying. Please tell me this isn't what you were saying. Fourthly, how's your relationship with that step-daughter? I would feel so alienated if someone in my family said that to me. Really. I don't know. Please make me happier by telling me this is one big misunderstanding.

sbbuilder

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 10:33 p.m.

s Sorry, but if you had the courage to read some of the material, you would see that, for example, the Man Boy Love Association advocates for the abolishment of all age of consent laws that do not involve coercion. They are just pushing the boundaries on age. Who is being harmed here? Of course, at some point most societies draw the line at some age or another for consentual acts, and marriage. As you can see, though, those lines tend to vary all over the map, so to speak. We happen to draw the line differently than other cultures, and other times. Clearly, in India, child marriage is still practiced on a large scale. Do the parents of the 'bride' think they are causing harm to their daughter by marrying her at the age of 11? You and I may think so, but they don't. Would you have the courage to stand up in the midst of a wedding ceremony in rural India and proclaim that child marriage is wrong? This begs the question of universal truth, doesn't it? If pedophilia is wrong here, shouldn't it be wrong everywhere? If child marriage is wrong here, shouldn't it be wrong everywhere? Yet we are asked to 'agree to disagree' with those who believe that homosexuality is OK. Stand on a street corner in Addis Ababa or Riyadh and proclaim how homosexuality is OK. (I don't think that would be a wise thing to do.) There are over a billion Muslims that think this is not OK. Who is right here? and why? Respectfully, I do not 'agree to disagree'. That is just linguistic mumbo jumbo, when concerning moral issues. That may be an allowable attitude when considering which rock band was the greatest, but I do not think it works with larger issues.

say it plain

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 10:32 p.m.

I totally agree with @FLC, very nicely said.

Dan

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 10:30 p.m.

@ David Briegel probably should take up some debate or argument lessons before trying to make what seems to be an incredibly one-sided and obscure point at that.... All in all, obviously people should be treated well regardless of whatever "anything" that they are a part of, or are themselves...However given the argument that is stemming in the comments section which is moving away from the article itself, I think tolerance needs to be defined clearly here.....

Bill Wilson

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 10:22 p.m.

@ S, SB's point eludes you. Let me explain, as I once explained to the step-daughter I raised (in Ann Arbor). One's sexuality is not akin to one's race: you can line 20 different people up and determine black from white, but you cannot determine one's sexuality. Behavior alone, defines one's sexuality. If one chooses to define their sexuality publicly, it's their right. But always remember, if you're going to do this, it's also the right of those who disagree with you to voice their opinion, and because you may disagree, that does not make them wrong: it's an opinion. That step-daughter, by the way, was gay.

s

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 10:06 p.m.

Thank you for this article and thank you, Mitch! ssbuilder- you listed things that harm others. Loving someone does not do harm to anyone else. To assert that two people being in love is causing harm is outrageous and an outright lie. Comparing two people of the same gender who happen to love each other to pedophilia or stoning people to death is intellectually dishonest and frankly laughable.

FLC

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 9:59 p.m.

"Tackle bullying in general and any particular group suffering will be eliminated." I wish this were true; everything would be easier. Please understand that by saying this I in no way wish to diminish the effect of bullying on any child, regardless of the reason for or method of bullying. Here's the thing, though: there are a lot of types of bullying (based on appearance, etc) that a child can experience at school, then come home and automatically experience acceptance and love from parents, even if the parents are unaware that the child is being bullied. That automatic safety net too often simply isn't there for LGBTQ kids, because plenty of them come home to families who, albeit in a kinder language that school bullies, teach the same idea: that being who they are is wrong, gross, immoral and correctable. Asking parents to talk to their kids, and to talk specifically about LGBTQ issues, aims to combat this. In that way, it isn't specially privileging one group's experience of bullying; in fact, it's aiming to make that bullying experience more akin to that of other groups, who often, though not always, can come home to a place where they need not question their own value.

Allusion

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 9:39 p.m.

Did anyone else just fall in love with Mitch? A little bit?

Joe Hood

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 9:12 p.m.

@Julie You are correct. This article does highlight its intention but we're talking about bullying. The article does a disservice to the issue. Tackle bullying in general and any particular group suffering will be eliminated. The simplest way is to engage parents. Have the parents ask their kids if they know of any bullying. Kids know it and it takes the onus off of the kids being bullied.

Julie

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 8:41 p.m.

Um Joe? Did you read the title? It states quite clearly the articles' intent.

Joe Hood

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 8:26 p.m.

If the article's attempt to was to highlight bullying in general, it failed.

Mom in Town

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 8:16 p.m.

Well said Heidi.

David Briegel

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 8:13 p.m.

jaded, (a great name) There is no agenda. Their is no choice. There is certainly NO promotion. Why would anyone choose or promote to become a persecuted minority where intolerance is the "norm". There is nothing normal about intolerance. You may have whatever conversations you wish with your "Lord". Man created God in his own image. Deal with it. Mitch and Julie are quite correct.

indigonation

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:55 p.m.

@Jaded in Ann Arbor its people like you that I cannot understand, I believe tolerance is a fundamental right but I have NO tolerance for people who spew stuff like what you just said, THERE IS NO GAY AGENDA!!! I know how difficult it is for some people and I understand what they are going through, Children should be taught in a loving way to accept themselves for who they are and accept others for who they are. Realize that there are other religions as well and even Christian denominations that teach to love and accept people for who they are and not try and Change them. Its attitudes like yours that are responsible for these cases. As a bisexual who has felt suicidal myself in the past I didn't choose my feelings and I shouldn't be scared to be myself. Homosexuality will not bring any more unhappiness than Heterosexuality, it is about the relationship, and its about love, not gender. This world is a beautiful place, just think what would it be like if you were gay and getting bullied. Peace

Lauren

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:55 p.m.

Acceptance does not necessitate being in agreement with a person's beliefs, lifestyle choices, sexual orientation (NOT a lifestyle choice), or any other facet of their lives; merely, it necessitates understanding that every person is different than you, respecting their individuality, and that your beliefs are not more "right" than another person's, just different. Moreover, if one is not hurting you or others by their lifestyle choices, then who are you to oppose them? Homosexuality does not HARM others directly any more than you can claim that heterosexuality does. Neither can opposing religious views or political views if they are purely a difference in viewpoint. Therefore, if you don't "agree" with homosexuality, fine. Agree to disagree and respect every person you encounter until they give you a valid reason not to. And PLEASE, teach your children this as well. Every human has rights and should be able to feel safe and loved going through their lives, but bullying, harassment, and discrimination prevents this from being the case for many individuals. While this world may never be perfect, if you keep your mind open and give others the same respect you would give yourself, you just might realize that some of the most good and admirable people you will ever meet will come from a walk of life far from your own.

Jaded in Ann Arbor

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:36 p.m.

Being Gay is NOT the norm. Ann Arbors' complete acceptance and promotion of this lifestyle will only lead to heartache. You know darn well it's not right. Put away the intellectual garbage and just look at it for what it is. Tolerance is fine but I can only handle so much before I worry what the Lord is thinking. He is love but he is Just.

FLC

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:35 p.m.

"...to propose that the solution to this problem is simply to teach children from an early age about all the types of "sexual expression and identities" out there is bad parenting. Children deserve to be children." I have no wish to derail discussion, and this is a can of worms, but I'm going to open it: children are sexual beings. To assume that all curiosity, interest, discussion and harassment surrounding sexual topics on the part of children is a result of being taught "too much" or "too early" is wishful thinking. Yes, what children are taught can do them good or ill. Yes, hypersexualized images passed down to increasingly younger children through the media are harmful, especially for what they teach about self-worth and for their privileging of certain bodies and bodies used certain ways. However: the messages children receive are not simply pollutants corrupting fundamentally "pure" (what a charged word) souls. Children are people. They live in their bodies. They experience the world through and with their bodies. They have feelings adults would classify as sexual, or sensual, and the reason we don't recognize them is because they are not yet expressed in ways in keeping with societal expectations about sexual behavior, not because they don't exist. Children do not learn how to feel *with* their bodies from the teachings and example of adults. They learn how to feel *about* their bodies. They learn to police one another, to hide the aspects of themselves society deems "deviant" or "wrong," and to punish others who express those aspects openly, because failing to do so might mean bringing punishment on themselves. Teaching a mature, age-appropriate and, above all, loving attitude towards feelings kids don't know what to do with on their own is not bad parenting, it's responsible parenting. It's the attitude with which I was parented, and the attitude I received from countless adults who supported me as I grew up, and being queer (as I am, was, and at some level *always* knew myself to be) still presented me with hardships I never asked for or deserved. I have friends who were raised instead with values that forced their experience of the world into the realm of secrecy and shame, and more than one have tried to take their lives. I want to respect the wisdoms and values of other families, but I can't accept a charge of "bad parenting" for the kind of support that makes life livable for me, and for more kids, really, than any of us know.

Susan Montgomery

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:32 p.m.

@Mitch - Well said. Anti-gay policies will eventually go the way of laws banning interracial marriage, and eventually it will seem just as odd that they ever existed in the first place...

David Briegel

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:29 p.m.

sme2, Can you teach your children that it is ok to be a bigot? Can you teach them that it is ok to be a Catholic? Methodist? Budhist? Atheist? Agnostic? Do you teach them to be tolerant of these deviants? When your child comes out to you, how will you respond? Personally, I did not teach my kids to be tolerant of bigots. They aren't and they turned out just fine!

Julie

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:26 p.m.

Here's another one (this is a summary from a research article), from American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry: http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_with_lesbian_gay_bisexual_and_transgender_parents

Julie

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:21 p.m.

@Heidi and others, here's a link to a very thorough report on Gays and Lesbians fostering and adopting. And this was via a 30 second search, and it's NON-biased, good research, not propoganda: http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/FinalAdoptionReport.pdf

Julie

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 7:16 p.m.

@Heidi, I am dismayed by your response. First off, Mitch is correct. The research has been done, it is your responsibility to read it and understand it before you start spouting off non-truths based on whatever you've been *told*. Secondly, why on earth can't you emphasize acceptance over judgement? Why can't you present to your children thusly: "Our religion teaches us X, therefore that's what we believe. But there are lots and lots of other religions out there, and other belief systems, and we are not "better" than people who believe differently, and it is extremely important that we respect all people, no matter what their religions or belief systems teach them." See the difference????

frozenhotchocolate

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 6:49 p.m.

what happened to the good old days when kids got bullied for being nerds. I got bullied for being Mexican eventhough i am not Mexican. it was because I looked different, I got o over it, my nickname was my English last name modified to sound Hispanic. deal with it, that or talk about how bad the world is these days. may sound negative but coming out of the closet may be better in college than in middle school, one can't expect immature classmates to understand such things. I t sucks but its the way she goes.

Allusion

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 6:28 p.m.

Scott- a brave article to write. Really. A risk taker even in the Ace. I wish tolerance sounded more... than just the bare minimum. I don't know... the general term of tolerance just sounds sort of not welcoming. I understand we all have our beliefs. However... I think children assume a lot. So, if you teach them that it is not okay for girls to like girls and boys to like boys... they assume that one life style is better than another. I know I did. Kids I think make these connections, and these connections stay with them. For the longest time I though LGBTQ people were selfish and millions of other negative things... I wish someone would have communicated with me when I was younger to establish what was "right" and what was "wrong." OR... REALLY, lack thereof. But, I guess it's hard to line things up with what different people believe in. It's difficult. Really difficult. Don't know if it can be done. Is there enough evidence to show that children thrive best with heterosexual parents married for life? I don't know if there's enough data and fair footing to really make that work. In my own experiences homosexual offspring turned out great. Exceptional. Also, I don't think anyone is planning to "use" the deaths of these young adults as an opportunity to seek a special, protected status for the LGBTQ community. (On a side note, it doesn't seem very tasteful to say that anyway, but... whatever, it's good to bring up any points...) There's issues. There have been issues. Finally something's being recognized and MAYBE people will start being proactive about it. I mean, overall, we wanna prevent death, right? As a general scheme. LGBTQ people don't want some special treatment... they actually just want to be on the same equity/acceptance level as anyone else. They don't want to have to explain their sexuality or for it to be an 'outlier.'They just want to blend in, honestly. Well, the ones I know. They don't want it to be a big deal. No one wants to stand out if, when they do stand out, they get teased. I don't think it's positive to bring up the issue of exploitation. I don't think that helps anything. Maybe it might... but I don't know... it seems irrelevant. If people are getting excited about not bullying and about being nice I think we should just let them go for it. I don't know. Just a few thoughts. I really appreciate the article, Scott. It was a risky one to put out there.

Susan Montgomery

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 6:15 p.m.

@Heidi "However, to propose that the solution to this problem is simply to teach children from an early age about all the types of "sexual expression and identities" out there is bad parenting. Children deserve to be children." There are ways to have age appropriate conversations without the sexual angle. We started with "sometimes boys get crushes on girls, and sometimes they get crushes on other boys" More generally, not directed at Heidi anymore, you don't have to believe that heterosexuality is normal to teach your children that bullying in any form and for any reason is not appropriate, and that no one should tolerate such behavior in others. Bullying itself causes enough harm, but the sense of isolation when witnesses do nothing about it must be overwhelming...

say it plain

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 6:09 p.m.

Oh please! People who argue that somehow there is a GLBTQ 'agenda' that the right-thinking must 'resist' :understand that it's not part of some abstinence-advocacy to bully the queer kids lol! It's not like the young people who took their lives did so because they had been going around advocating premarital sex--you can look at mainstream heterosexual media for that niche--and the folks who treated them as though they were sub-human were merely being good disciples, you know! They were *bullies*, calling names and taunting subtly and not at all subtly, brattily invading privacy in one horrific case, at a time in their victims' lives when coming to terms with *who you are* is a terribly emotionally fraught process. Stating your beliefs about the "wrongness" of the non-mainstream orientation only contributes to this and I hope it is not lost on you all that despite the 'values' rhetoric you use, it sure looks like merely a cover for non-acceptance, pure and simple; it only seems to justify the bullying.

Heidi Hess Saxton

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 5:50 p.m.

Anytime a young person takes his or her life, it is a tragedy. Each one is someone's child, someone's friend who chose a permanent solution for a temporary problem (by "problem" I'm referring to the immediate crisis that preceded their deaths). THIS is the crisis that needs addressing... teaching our children to manage their feelings and to get help when they feel incapable of doing this. I have no doubt that many of these children and young people were in crisis because of things their peers said and did to and about them. I attended a funeral just a few weeks ago for one such person (he wasn't gay, but had other issues). He was a good kid with bright prospects. His family has been destroyed. As you pointed out, suicide is the third-highest cause of suicide for teens and young adults. However, to propose that the solution to this problem is simply to teach children from an early age about all the types of "sexual expression and identities" out there is bad parenting. Children deserve to be children. Furthermore, we need to distinguish between actual bullying and those who simply resist the GLBT agenda on moral principle. It is not "hate mongering" to teach children the simple conviction that God created sex for marriage, that teenagers should not be sexually active prior to marriage, that the complementarity and difference between the sexes is a good thing, and that children thrive best when raised by their mother and father, married for life. "Sexting" and other forms of direct sexual exploitation against an individual (regardless of orientation) is absolutely wrong, and should be prosecuted. No question. But to use the deaths of these children and young adults as an opportunity to seek a special, protected status for the GLBT community borders on exploitation. These beautful young people were far more complex than this -- and deserve to be remembered for all that they were, and not merely their sexual orientation.

sme2

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 5:44 p.m.

I appreciate your article but there is one part I cannot agree with. I cannot teach my children it is okay for girls to like girls and boys to like boys because I don't believe it is. I will teach my children to be kind to everyone, and even if we do not agree with others' decisions, we still need to respect them. The real question is, when my children or I tell someone our beliefs about homosexuality, will we be respected or does tolerance only work one way.

Cash

Tue, Oct 12, 2010 : 5:27 p.m.

Excellent article, Mr Beal. How many of the behaviors of the bullies, the intolerant, etc were learned from the parents? Teach by example.