Heady99

Thu, Apr 29, 2010 : 7:51 a.m.

To SWCornell that right there is the absolute truth - the bullies seem to be more saavy at avoiding trouble. This is very personal to me because after years of bullying (since 3) my son decided to start fighting back when he got into high school. Although we had taught him to turn the other cheek and to take the high road - he was sick and tired of being pushed, punched, verbally and physically abused, had extremelly nasty things written on school property about him and it goes on. When he took this avenue the kids that bullied and taunted him got a way with it but the school decided that they could't prove what the bullies had done but could prove my son retailiated and he was therefore suspended. I have spent nearly 15 years trying to get this taken care of to no avail. Teachers and principals sympathized with me but again no action was ever taken against the same group of boys and girls who hararrased my son until he couldn't take it any more and quit school! I was really trying very hard not to put my personal stuff out here but my message remains the same - until someone aggressively goes after the schools/districts for continuing to turn a blind eye to this situation it will continue! And yes, it does sometimes leave lifelong scars! To the boy's father I am so sorry for all this pain and anguish you are experiencing and I hope and pray that your son will have a complete recovery! I also hope that you will fight for your son as I did mine and I hope that they listen because this still affects my son to this very day! People quit preaching about how great thou art about your parenting skills and democrats/republicans, teachers, etc... and remember that these are children any way you look at it and THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE EDUCATION AND CONSEQUENCES TO THOSE WHO CONTINUE TO BULLY OTHERS - THIS IS VERY VERY REAL!

Kristin Mercer

Wed, Apr 28, 2010 : 2:56 p.m.

I am sorry, but if that parent was on the playground and accepted the responsibility,as such... He/she is certainly responsible!! As are the staff and any other adult in the community who allowed this type of behavior to happen! It is OUR duty as parents, educators, and community to stand up and say "NOT ACCEPTABLE!!" to any of this type of behavior or the watching or tolerance of... This didn't just happen!! It built to the breaking point! SHAME on each and every adult connected to this... They FAILED at their job and/or duty to be aware of what is going on around them!! SOMEONE NEEDS TO "CLEAN HOUSE"! Saline schools needs to figure out who failed these children and hold them accountable!!

swcornell

Tue, Apr 27, 2010 : 11:48 p.m.

Be careful where blame is placed before all the facts are known. It is not uncommon for a group of students to get tired of a bully and take him/her on as a group. I know of an incident some years ago where an older bully urinated on a younger student in a high school bathroom and other students in the bathroom retaliated quickly and decisively. However, the bully played innocent and all were suspended. Yet the bully was never properly punished for the initial incident. The boys that protected the younger student were a group of Boy Scouts just protecting one of their own. But nobody was really willing to listen to and get the real story. Bullies are usually very good at covering up their crimes, they are often good liars.

robyn

Tue, Apr 27, 2010 : 1:25 p.m.

Child's Father: I am so sorry that you had to come here and read through some of the remarks that have been made. My thoughts are with you and your child - no child should be a victim like that for ANY reason. The thought that it could have possibly been racially motivated is even more upsetting. If you are able to - considering that this school attack is still under investigation - can you at least post some information on how your son is doing? I hope that he is recovering from his injuries and that there will be no physical problems in the future resulting from the injuries he sustained. Unfortunately - the mental and emotional injuries will take much longer to heal - if they ever do.

bornblu

Tue, Apr 27, 2010 : 8:43 a.m.

@Chris Please read my post, what I said was "it is not Granholm's failure---". I guess I am glad that I don't get your big picture; as you appear to want to trivialize this incident into a political, Democrat/Republican issue. In my big picture I would rather see us all, various organizations, schools, parents, etc., teach our children (and adults/ourselves) the virtues that would eradicate this type of behavior in any segment of society. While this may seem euphoric, I am of the firm belief that we all can become more tolerant, respectful, understanding, etc. in how we view and deal with others whom are different than us. To me this is a personal issue where I have the responsibility to mentor and to live my life as an example of these values. THIS IS NOT A POLICIAL ISSUE!!

URmaster

Tue, Apr 27, 2010 : 7:31 a.m.

@ bornblu, you are still not 'getting' it. Let me try, try again? You state: "Granholms failure to disburse funds appropriately/timely that would have allowed Guidance Counselors present to prevent this occurrence." You forget: The Republican held Michigan Legislator, shot down any of Granholm's plans to generate more revenue to avoid cutting school budgets state wide in the first place. Why did they do this? Partisanship: They're angry at her for being a bright, smart woman who actually cares about the state's children, instead backing up big business. The irony here is that all you so-called Republicans are willing to sacrifice your own children in the name of ideology without really understanding the full repercussions of your actions. It is truly sad. Now, kids are jumping each other and we have no money to hire qualified counselors. Nice!

angela

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 8:39 p.m.

I do have children, two in fact, girls if you must know. They have been raised to think and respond, to deal with the reactions of what they have done, and most importantly, work for what they get. They know to go to a teacher if someone is in danger, they know to get help if help is needed, they have been taught from an early age to respect and to treat others the way they would wish to be treated. And to who ever it was who said we dont deal with problems with a rumble < what is this west side story, You deal with a problem by getting the proper people involved to deal with the situation, fighting as never been an option for my girls because it is not allowed, neither is bliaming everyone else, making excuses for ones mistakes, and crying the blues about everything that doesnt go your way. Bad things happen to good people who dont deserve it, noone can change that fact. Bullying sucks, my kids have been picked on they reported it and the problem children were dealt with, the process took months but our kids knew what the outcome would be. If something escalates to the point of injury we still wouldnt sue, why would I expect to gain money for something we didnt work for, but I would most assuredly expect the school to remove the cause of the problem. School staff are not trained ninjas, or secrets agents. Everyone needs to play a part for problems like this to occure, from parents on down to the school staff, even our children. Teachers are meant to teach. Social behavior should be taught by parents.

Michael K.

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 1:38 p.m.

@ ChildsFather, Thank you for letting us know. Believe me, many of us are very sad, and very ashamed at the racial component. We had heard rumors, but did not want to broach that publically without more information. I think most parents intuitvely understand that their child could easily be either the victim or the perpetrator. There are no guarentees. And the bullying could be over weight, glasses, speech, culture, boys, girls.... any of our kids. Please, please let us know what we can do to help your family, if there is anything. There are, of course, no easy solutions. But this is already igniting the kind of dialog we need going forward - in the com munity, in the schools, at home. I have high regard for the Saline teachers and administrators. But we all, obviouly, have been clearly warned - and need to act!

bornblu

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 1:33 p.m.

Chris: I believe I get the big picture. It is not the defeat of the millage, less money spent on other necessary services (police/fire), the SEA not accepting a large pay cut, or Gov. Granholms failure to disburse funds appropriately/timely that would have allowed Guidance Counselors present to prevent this occurrance. These are significant issues and deserve to be discussed but again are not the determining factor for this incident. This event may have occurred at any location (and has), whether it be the mall, a front lawn, city parking lot, etc. It is the responsibility of us all to raise our children (and act ourselves) to be more tolerant, to understand and accept the differences of those from various ethnic backgrounds, sexual identities, or with disabilities. In short, how to behave and act properly towards all people at all times. THIS IS THE BIG PICTURE!! @ChildsFather I have been "in your shoes" and received that call. I understand what you are experiencing; my prayers are with you, your family, and your son as he recovers from this injury.

KrissyK

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 12:28 p.m.

Please STOP! Until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes, stop judging! Quit assuming that the School, the Teachers and the Saline Police Department are complete idiots! Quit assuming that it is the School's and Teacher's responsibilty to "prevent" this from happening. For those parents that have children, look at yourselves! Perhaps you're doing things right, perhaps parenting is not so easy for you!

ChildsFather

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 11:32 a.m.

My son (the victim) was not just pushed, he was pushed down, punched in the back of the head and repeatedly kicked and hit to the point of having seizure then going unconcious. This came about to weeks after some of the same students got in trouble for taking his things, throwing them, telling him to go get them and calling him a slave. I also heard from one officer that there were other racial slurrs at the time of the fight. Some call it bullying, some say assault, but me.... I don't care what u call it, I just know that my was hurt and I'm truley upset about it. There's slot of aspects of this story that the school or the police failed to mention but I have no problem with telling u what I think. And oh yea.... Yes we are black. Now I have never been racist but I can't speak for others. I just know that being informed of your child being unconcious after having a seizure only later to find out he was JUMPED, is something I would wish for ANY parent (no matter what color they are. Yes, it hurts.

URmaster

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 11:18 a.m.

@ bornblu, it is okay, you missed the 'big picture'. Let me try again? We always seem to be able to find a few bucks for public works projects, banks, and other corporate investments, yet when it comes to education funding, it is usually the first on the chopping block. Have you noticed this? Until we reverse this notion and put public education first, we will only run into more problems with greater, disastrous consequences. For example, If you could hire, for a example, a qualified teacher-in-training counselor at 25-30 dollars an hour to supervise kids during lunch hour, instead of a paying a unqualified 'volunteer 8-10 dollars an hour, these types of stories would not happen. We need trained professionals that can recognize the danger signs and the requires money to pay them. I think this is a clear case of getting out of a system what you put into it. Is this clear enough for you? Do you understand?

Michael K.

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 10:44 a.m.

RE: "Cuts don't hurt" Saline just gutted their Guidance Counselors, effective March 17 I believe. Now I expect they will have to bring in consultants on bullying, and conduct some educational sessions, as mentioned in the Cadillac Bullying article. The counselors are/were the front line, working with some potentially dangerous kids. (Don't know if any were involved in this, but they are out there.) From the Saline paper, Feb 10, 2010: "Lost in tonight's comments by several board members is the fact that they followed Superintendent Graden's recommendation to eliminate all elementary guidance counselors. These award-winning professionals and program has been in existence for over 15 years and have serviced thousands of children and families in need," he said. "The middle school counseling department was further reduced to one part-time counselor." In some cases, a good counselor might be the only person a potentially violent - or bullied - kid might trust!

Michael K.

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 10:37 a.m.

@Ben, I am **so sorry** to hear about your friend! I have an 11 year old at Heritage. Your friend could easily be my child. Believe me, there are teachers and parents here who will do **anything** to help your friend! Please tell him to approach the principal, the administration, or a trusted teacher. Please read this article, just breaking today, about bullying in Northern Michigan that lead to a suicide: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BULLYING_ONE_BOYS_STORY?SITE=AZPHG&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT There is a policy here that the Saline School District needs to immediately ennuciate - after two really vicous assults last week that resulted in hospitalizations, not just a bloody nose: "Since Alex's death, the Harrisons have received e-mails and Facebook messages from parents in the school district who've said their children are being harassed, too. (The principal) Liabenow has vowed that each one of those claims will be investigated by his staff."

bornblu

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 8:45 a.m.

@ Chris Your implication that the millage defeat played any role in this is as ludicrous as blaming it on Obama being elected. Just no correlation! One fact that I am not sure of after reading the article is whether the child who sustained the injury was the one who instigated the bulling or was the receipent of the bullying. Not that either makes a difference in that no child should suffer this type of injury during any altercation; especially at this age or location. Tempers will flair, fights will occur, but at any age our children need to know what the results of their actions will be,and the significance of the injuries they can inflict (any child, and adult, should know it is unacceptable to kick a person in the head at any time, etc.). In cases such as this there is no direct responsibility or blame; we can lay blame on untrained volunteers, school system, teachers, parents, and all of us who fail to act, mentor, and model appropriately for young children. I am also sure that there is no administrator, teacher, volunteer, or parent that would knowingly not intercede if aware of what was occurring. Not only do we need to continue to address bullying, we also need to let children (and adults) know the significance of injuries to the head/brain from any altrecation or action.

URmaster

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 7:59 a.m.

I find it sad that most comments do not recognize the correlation between increased school millage funding and the quality and safety of our public schools? What did y'all think was going to happen when the millage got shot down? That your kids were going to be safer, have greater opportunities? C'mon, so you saved a USD 100(on average) on you property taxes, but now our kids are tearing each other apart on playgrounds as teachers and admins look on. Serves you right.

Ben Armstrong

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 7:51 a.m.

I used to attend Heritage School. And i knew a kid who was part of the "unpopulare group" in fact he was my best friend. Ever sense i was kicked out of Heritage he told me over E-mail a long time ago that he was being bullied. I seriousley hope that the kid who was beat up isnt my best friend.

SalineMom

Mon, Apr 26, 2010 : 6:05 a.m.

@Robyn I couldn't agree with you more!! Parents can be a big part of the problem - me, me, me kids entitled by the yes, yes, yes parents. I've also had my share of calls about my kids and it was dealt with and not an issue again (hopefully) - none of them are perfect. When my kids complain about something at school - I usually ask them to talk to the teacher, principal, etc first - and if they aren't satisfied with the answer (and it is a real issue), then we will step in. For some of the other commentors on this topic, there is a bullying policy in SAS, if you haven't got a good response at the building level, or at central office - the board is your next step.

eom

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 9:32 p.m.

@casmom....Teachers get lots of breaks! Specials is more than an hour, a half hour for lunch and lets see...every holiday,weekend,summer,snow day and every other stupid day off school our children have.(There are many of them) Get it out of your head that recess means another break for teachers. If anything our children need closer supervision while on the playground. Wake up and watch our children! You certainly (in Saline)are paid well enough to do so. Clearly, you have never had the need to EAT LUNCH in your lifetime. I understand that everyone thinks that teachers get too much money and have too much time on their hands, but they do need to eat and pee. Sheesh.

jafecu

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 6:47 p.m.

@Angela: Not everyone in this chat room have suffered the same indignations from bullying. I didn't grow up here. Where I am from, I grew up with bullies that killed. I had friends that lived in my apartment building killed as kids...and some of them, not all, had good parents. I have also witnessed and/or investigated the same type of crimes in my career, and from professional and personal experience, I can assure you that there will be some kids who BULLY, that will be tomorrow's violent criminals. None of what I mention is from speculation. Acts of bullying, assaults, etc., need to be addressed early for the safety of the perpertrators and the victims. The days of settling disputes in a "rumble" after school are over. Kids are arrested and people are sued, and sometimes children end up dead, and not just from the initial perpertrator, but sometimes from the victim or victim's relatives seeking some "get back". I've seen it on more than one occasion. I applaud the parents who are concerned and who take a stand to do the right thing in the interest of safety for all of our students.

casmom

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 6:29 p.m.

I have been thinking a lot about this story today. This brought to mind my own elementary school experence. I just wanted to share what went on in my own school when bullying became a problem on the playground...Mrs. Eastman was the principal of our little school. She was a little old lady (maybe 65ish) with a huge heart. She made it her mission to keep bullying to a minimum.Everyday (and I mean EVERY day)she came out to our playground.She gathered any child who was interested for a game of kickball. She used to "pitch"us the ball and act as a referee. Her presence on the playground made a lasting impression in my mind. Thinking back I realize that she was out there each day because she cared for her students. I am sure there were days she would have prefered to be inside,out of the New England weather.I am more sure that playing a game of kickball with her students everyday was not in her contract. She simply CARED! I will always remember the lessons learned from Mrs. Eastman...and they have nothing to do with kickball!

robyn

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 5:56 p.m.

Heady: I don't require a 'pat on the back' - I am just doing what any responsible parent would do. Teaching my kids to be decent humans. And I'm sorry if you mistook my statements and thought that I was alluding to them being perfect. They are certainly NOT perfect. I've had my fair share of calls from both the school and the bus driver when they've acted up. The difference is - I address the problem and don't ignore it or blame everyone else for my child's actions. As for the schools here - maybe it all has to do with attitude. I have NEVER encountered any problem within the system here - from the Superintendent's office to the schools and their staff to the bus garage and my kids' driver. As a matter of fact - my kids' bus driver calls me whenever my kids act up on the bus. (The 10 year old has been particularly 'active' this year.) But she also knows - we will deal with the problem behavior. And don't read into that statement as our spanking or beating our kids - we don't do that. I think the fear of 'MOMMY or DADDY' holding their hand while they walk them to school because they can't act like a 'big girl or boy' freaks them out enough to make them think before they act. Oh and that's also the deal for misbehaving IN school. We WILL go to school and hold their hand all day long until they can act like decent kids. Never have had to do it - guess their pride is worth more than their will to do stupid things... While the school has a responsibility to keep our kids safe while they are there - we have a responsibility as parents to raise our children in a way that they are not a threat to the other kids in school. Unfortunately - even when schools do try to discipline the kids - they have to face a fight (sometimes even a legal battle which cost the school district money - and thus takes away from EVERY child there) from the parents. It's a no win situation. Maybe instead of kicking bad kids out of school - they should make the parents attend school with their kid so that the parent can discipline the child instead of getting all bent out of shape when the school is forced to do so. Besides - I bet it would be a great bonding and learning experience for the parent. If they are so oblivious as to how their kid acts - they'd have a front row seat to see just how 'wonderful' their kid is.

proudtobeme

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 3:40 p.m.

the entire staff addresses the issue,not just the counselor. The entire staff is very aware that bullying is a major issue.

goblue1

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 2:57 p.m.

Saline Schools enjoyed over staffing for too long. A K-6 counselor coming to your room once a week or so, with the I-Care Cat in hand, is not going to eliminate bullying. The classroom teacher is the most powerful tool for teaching and learning. They have the opportunity, if they would simply take the time, to build positive relationships with every child in their classroom; after all, they spend all day, every day, with them.

tracyann

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 12:33 p.m.

I have a feeling that the people calling this a "stupid story" and that we are raising a bunch of "sissies" don't have kids. If I'm wrong, Lord help them. But anyway, regardless of who started what and whether it was continued bullying or a conflict between kids that escalated, a child was assaulted (yes, by definition, it's assault) to the point that he went into convulsions, which is indicative of a head injury. And, hell yes, if one of my kid were being picked on at school to the point where it was affecting their work, health, what have you, I would be "crying about it" too. Why should my kid pay for your lack of parenting skills?

proudtobeme

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 12:29 p.m.

the students at Heritage have had lessons about bullying (before the school counselor's position was cut) but she was able to do her lessons starting at the beg. of the year until March. So the students have heard that being a bystander and not telling an adult is not the right thing to do. We talk to the students constantly about this. if you think the school is not talking about this,then you are mistaken. And it's very obvious that many people commenting have never had experience with 5th and 6th graders. My experience with 5th and 6th graders is that no matter how much you tell them they need to tell an adult,probably 95% of the time,they DON"T. Even after the conversations being had with the students now,there will still be many students who won't say anything-they don't want to tell that they are being bullied for fear of retaliation and they don't want to "tattle" when they know others are being bullied for fear of looking like a snitch. It doesn't mean the adults won't try,it simply means that 5-6th graders don't always listen to adults.

bunnyabbot

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 12:15 p.m.

perhaps what to do is to "punish" the rest of the students who were not involved. That is to say that they don't get recess for lunch any longer or for a few weeks, but instead have to sit in the lunch room getting lessoned about bullying. Maybe if they learn that even if they are not involved directly, that if they do nothing while someone else is being bullied they are helping to contribute to the abuse. That if they see someone being teased/harrased/bullied that they should tell their teacher and that they can do so without the other kids knowing they told. Chances are that many other students knew about this behavior prior to this child being beaten to a pulp.

Ram

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 12:01 p.m.

@Barb: You're guessing that on what, pure random guessing?

Barb Wood

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 10:59 a.m.

Last week the Michigan State House Education Committee took testimony regarding anti-bullying legislation. A vote on the measure is expected this week. The bill being reviewed is HB 4580, introduced by Rep. Pam Byrnes (D-Lyndon Township). It's time to contact your state Rep. in support of this legislation. My guess is that the boys being held responsible for the attack at the Saline school were identified as bullies way before this incident occured.

Saldoggy

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 10:42 a.m.

@Angela, Right on!!

Heady99

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 10:35 a.m.

Robyn if you are looking for a pat on back for raising such exemplary children then here it is - but for a lot of children in Chelsea and all other school districts bullying is a huge problem that needs to be addressed now rather than later. Also, just to clarify when you send your children to school it is their responsibility to keep our children safe. Just like it is any business' responsibility to keep their employees safe when they are at work - this is no different! Also, if your children have not experienced anything like this than that is great but I promise you there are children in Chelsea and other places that get harassed verbally and physically by other children on a daily basis - this does include buses too! Also, the parents that don't believe that there is a problem usually are the offenders parents because they seem to be the only ones who think there is no problem!

emu2009

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 9:34 a.m.

This type of issue isn't limited to just Saline schools unfortunately. Children aren't afraid to put their hands on each other anymore and they know how to keep it from adult eyes. These kids aren't receiving the proper guidance and training from their parents in their home. Many parents spend their days in denial about what their children are truly capable of. I have witnessed firsthand when I have tried to talk to a parent and their child while trying to solve a dispute between our children. No one wants to remember that their are 3 sides to every story out there.

proudtobeme

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 9:10 a.m.

wow. I can't believe my comment was removed b/c I asked scottyboy where he gets his information?!?! so it's ok for someone to post something that is false yet when I ask a simple question it gets removed. and yes,for the record, there is no policy or rule that says teachers are not allowed on the playground and only parent volunteers are.

josber

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 7:38 a.m.

Kelly, well said, well said. As parents we must insist on proper care of our children when not with us. This was preventable incident.

Kelly

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 7:25 a.m.

Student safety is the direct responsibility of the the school employees. Administrators must determine adequate student:supervisory ratios. Administrators must then create an atmosphere where staff enforce the safety rules. Staff must put the children's physical safety needs firt and foremost. They must create an atmosphere where children feel safe to go to them knowing the staff member will react appropriately. Students must follow the rules. They must let staff they trust know when an unsafe situation occurs. Parents must enforce safety rules with their children. They must communicate with administrators and staff when things are not going as expected. Staff must also communicate with parents when children's behaviors are not meeting acceptable standards. The community and first responders must demand adequate staff:student supervision ratios throughout the school day. This includes time on the school run buses and on the playgrounds. Girl Scout and Boy Scout organizations have strict rules on adult:child ratios. Perhaps it is time for the schools to look outside their own culture to those around them for guidance. Children should not be injured to the point of having seizures by other children. This is a supervision problem. As adults, this can not be allowed to continue.

RB

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 7:11 a.m.

@ffej440: It's great you were a middle school track coach! Wonderful to get involved like that for the betterment of the kids. The point I was trying to make concerning teachers supervising the children during recess is the teacher knows his/her students. He/she knows what kids are most likely to cause problems. So in addition to keeping a general eye on all the kids he/she can keep a close eye on the troublemakers. He/she is the best qualified to PREVENT the problem from occurring in the first place or minimize injury with quick intervention. Recess occurs during normal school hours. It is not an after school, OPTIONAL activity such as track. The school and its staff are responsible for keeping our children as safe as possible DURING SCHOOL HOURS. I believe the teachers are best qualified to do that. BTW - Teachers don't eat their lunch during recess.

angela

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 3 a.m.

Lord all mighty, there is not a single person that has commented about this stupid story that has not been picked on or pushed or teased. Does anyone remember boys teasing girls because really they liked them, now apparently we are so sensitve about it that we remove are kid from school or we sue the district or we start campaigns to protect our kid from ever feeling anything less then pure joy. Why dont we stop the mean teachers from ever giving a grade below a b and we should start a commitee to force the icecream man to give treats away for free because its not fair some kids didnt have any money to pay for them. why dont we have rallies against the police if they have to taze a drug riddled suspect because he ran from them then fought with them, oh we do. Then how about we get all angry because a cop had to taze a student because he was beating up teachers, oh shoot we do. If punishment is brought upon a student for causing problems you people cry the blues, if someone turns a blind eye on the issue you cry the blues. Stick to tree hugging and stop procreating, because that little kid is going to have to suffer the indignity of watching thier hero (you) crying the blues about everything. Who needs a sissy for a hero, there is a reason the baby boomer gen and thier offspring will never be known as the greatest generation. If you keep forcing your kids to stop growing we are going to have a nation of 40 year old video game players who still live in thier parents basement hoping someone will give them what they have always been told they deserve, oh darn we do

Ram

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 12:05 a.m.

I'm guessing that volunteers were watching the students because the teachers are on their lunch break. Sounds pretty legitimate to me...

BigSexy76

Sun, Apr 25, 2010 : 12:01 a.m.

The school district needs to send a clear message that there will be ZERO TOLERANCE when it comes to bullying. They also need to look at why untrained volunteers are supervising our kids instead of teachers and staff. Hopefully the administration will finally do the right thing for once!

Ram

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:50 p.m.

rici: Assault is a more appropriate term than bullying, yes. I would call it an "Altercation" because there was hostility from both sides. Bullying, in my opinion, is an attack against someone who has not harmed you. Some will say the victim in this incident was an unfair target because was outnumbered - I cannot argue with this. That being said, students who think they can talk their mouth off and verbally assault other students without fear of physical retaliation are in for a lesson. (NOTE: I do not mean this in the context of this situation, because I don't know the whole facts of the background of the case. I aim this statement towards the general discussion of bullying, with too many people through around too loosely). angela, you are right on the money with your statement.

15crown00

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:46 p.m.

Skip the parent permission.Any brat that had anything to do with the fight gets interviewed.Either that or they get arrested then they get interviewed.Throw the wonderful parents in jail for obstruction.This is a perfect example of PC winning and common sense losing.

michelle

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:36 p.m.

WOW...after reading all these comments I can not understand why people don't see this kid was bullied???? to the ones who say it is not...you must be or have been a bully, and the ones that agree know of or have been bullied. If this kids was picked on before by one of the other students and the school knew about it then this is a problem, not to be dismissed.

MGoYpsi

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:26 p.m.

jns131-"Willow Run and Ypsilanti is where I expected this to happen. Not Saline" Nice stereotypical statement-So all the kids in Saline are perfect and would never harm another kid. Get a clue jns131.

angela

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:26 p.m.

I fear for our future. What a great thing to teach our kids. First we wont keep score in any sporting events because its not fair to win, second dont stick up for yourself, run and have someone else stick up for you. What great lessons, because we all know that when we grew up, everything was fair everything was just noone ever got hurt or cheated or wronged. Jeez I hear all the people talking about how painful it was to be bullied 30 years ago. My word, if being picked on in 3rd grade was the worst thing thats happened in your life count yourself lucky. Or perhaps move on with your life. Your childeren need moments like this to grow, they need moments of turmoil to prepare themselves for the toughness of normal life. Some people win some people lose. How boring life would be if we were all exactly the same.

Rici

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:07 p.m.

ram wrote "the other boys didn't tolerate it so that wanted to teach this kid a lesson" and claimed this wasn't bullying. So let me get this straight: the kids wanted to teach him a lesson and so resorted to physical violence, and this isn't bullying? So what exactly is it then? Assault, perhaps?

casmom

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 9:29 p.m.

My daughter is a 3rd grade student at Plesant Ridge Elementary in Saline and though we have not experienced anything quite like this,I have to say that I am less than impressed with the supervision of our children on the play ground. Last year my daughter was knocked unconsious when she colided with another child. She reports that when she came to,she was confused,talking nonsense,had tunnle vision and bit almost all the way through her lip.She was not helped by an adult until she walked herself to the nurses office. It is my understanding that the adults on the playground were told of the situaion by her friends,but were not concerened enough to walk over and see if it was serious. It seems to me that recess is social hour for the adults and as a parent I am fed up. anonamouse...I have to say your argument does not hold water with me.Teachers get lots of breaks! Specials is more than an hour, a half hour for lunch and lets see...every holiday,weekend,summer,snow day and every other stupid day off school our children have.(There are many of them) Get it out of your head that recess means another break for teachers. If anything our children need closer supervision while on the playground. Wake up and watch our children! You certainly (in Saline)are paid well enough to do so.

Saldoggy

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 9:24 p.m.

I am a Saline parent of a student at Woodland Meadows (share parking lot with Heritage) and I can't believe I didn't hear about this incident until I saw it on Channel 7 News at 6pm last night. I was bullied on the bus in Kindergarten and never retaliated. Again, as a sophomore in high school I was often punched in the hallway by an individual that was much bigger than me. One day, after receiving the usual punch...I returned fire! He never touched me again. Bullies are complete cowards. I have preached to my kids to help defend victim's of bullying and to stand up to this nonsense b/c the school system won't. This includes most school systems. Both my kids have had training in Karate (one is still very active).

Marie Powers

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:40 p.m.

My son was bullied in school 10 or so years ago. When I reported the ongoing problem to the Superintendent his is response was "Mrs. Powers bullying has be going on for eons...what would you have me do about it?" I will never forget those words. It is that apathy on the part of administrators for years that has created the crisis we have today.

MissM

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:37 p.m.

AMOC- It is not appropriate or accurate to state that in most districts students are unsupervised in halls and after school. As a teacher, I assure you we most certainly do monitor the hallways during passing time as well as give up 5 of our 25 minute lunch everyday to ensure students are where they need to be. Furthermore, I know my own child's elementary teacher walks their classes to the busses.

Anonymous Due to Bigotry

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:32 p.m.

@jafecu I hate to say it, but most likely your cases were taken seriously because your children are minority students in a majority white school, and especially if they were called "nigger" by white students. I suspect that if you want bullying incidents taken seriously and you're white in a mostly white school then you're going to have to claim that your kid is gay or muslim or something. Then they will take things seriously partly for political reasons and partly because the administrators know that they stand a much larger chance of getting in serious trouble if they allow a minority student to be harassed in a racist or other bigoted manner. Of course if you happen to be a black kid in a mostly black school getting bullied by black students then most likely that's not going to get taken seriously because nobody can be accused of racism for not doing anything. All children need to be protected and all teachers and administrators need to be in just as much trouble for doing nothing as if the student were being bullied in a racist manner. If a parent or student brings a problem to their attention and that student is later injured then the teachers/administrators who were informed of the problem should be prosecuted. I'm sure there is some law that applies here.

jafecu

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:56 p.m.

As a parent who has two kids (5th and 7th) in the Saline school system, I have gone through the experiences of my kids being bullied...and I mean bullied! I have had my daughter BULLIED by a bigger boy and my son BULLIED by an older boy, along with other similar incidents over the years. Each time, my wife and I communicated with the respective principals and the situations were resolved to our satisfaction. Just recently my son was assaulted on the school bus. On the same day, he had to endure a classmate refer to him as a "nigger"(we are African-American) and continuously used that word throughout that day and the following day. We contacted the school and the matter was appropriately handled. Prior to that incident, my 13 year-old daughter was terrified when some Saline high school athletes (they had on "Saline" letter jackets) drive by her in a car, and yell at her a name that brought her to tears. These are just a few stories. I have also had kids drive by me and shout obscenities at me while I was walking. Also, I'd like to mention that I am in law enforcement and I have worked and lived in other parts of the country, and Saline schools, however excellent, have some of the same problems as other schools in similar suburban areas. Most importantly, these problems (bullying) can negatively affect our kids, regardless of their race.

ScottyBoy

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 5:23 p.m.

The Saline Superintendent of Schools, Scot Graden, made a policy of no teachers on playgrounds. Only parent volunteers are used on playgrounds in Saline Schools.

ypsiman

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 5:21 p.m.

saline is like the new ypsi,, look at all bad thins that happen,, or is ann arbor,com just only looking there

URmaster

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 5:09 p.m.

Parents and volunteers need to be more vigilant when it comes to supervising kids on the playgrounds. That's all. They're kids, they need supervision and to be monitored carefully. Common sense anyone?

Anonymous Due to Bigotry

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 5:01 p.m.

Kids need to be taught to defend themselves. Unfortunately most teachers will just tell kids to stand there and not fight back, then tell a teacher later. (To the teachers who say this, would you stand there and not fight back if someone started punching you?) Even if I told a teacher about an incident, the teacher would never do anything because "she didn't see it" or whatever. It was obvious that the teachers were idiots and I had no further respect for their advice after that. Some kid tried to bully me in middle school and at some point started shoving me. I punched him in the face and gave him a black eye. That was the end of the problem right there. I got no more bullying from anyone for the rest of middle or high school after that. Sadly I think this is the right solution to bullying in most cases. Bullies are cowards and will stop once they see that if they want to fight then they're going to take some damage too.

anonnie

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 4:42 p.m.

As a former playground supervisor (paid) in another school district, I was never trained as to what my responsibilities were. My common sense told me that I needed to secure the safety of the children, and prevent or break up altercations when they occured. However, when I actually did this, I was taken to task, and the childrens' word, not mine, was assumed as fact by the authorities. With such limits on my authority, I was powerless to effect any behavior "rules", and resigned. If we want to ensure the safety of children, let's agree on what the responsibilities of supervisors are, and what steps they are allowed to take to protect the children.

chelseami

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 4:19 p.m.

We have just started this year in the Chelsea school district. My daughter was getting picked on during the bus rides. It is something when your child is so excited to be on the bus and then they start and the older kids tell them that they are going to stab their eyes out, shoot them, punched in the stomach, and of course you are missing food because the older kids will not let your daughter sit with them until she gives them food. I have met with the bus driver, the transportation director and the principle with no success. I eventially removed her from the bus system completely so in their eyes the problem is resolved. I was informed that it is not called bullying because 2nd and 3rd graders don't know what that means yet. The bus system in chelsea goes by schools not grades. I had an adult offer to ride the bus every day to and from school, but was told that would be a liability and it couldn't happen (but not have 60 plus kids on the bus isn't). It starts in K. I hope everything goes well with the boy. It seems like it is happening younger and younger...

Riley

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 4:07 p.m.

AMOC - FYI: The counselors used to teach a bullying curriculum. However, Mr. Graden felt the need to cut all of the counselors K-6.

John Galt

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 4:06 p.m.

If we want this type of behavior to stop, we need to be able to lockup and sue the parents of these little "darlings" that allow their offspring to run rampant. Just like the liability for a dog. Then, maybe, parents would be more active in controling and raising their kids properly.

SalineMom

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 3:30 p.m.

@michaywe Heritage School is within the city limits of Saline, they have to call Saline PD. Saline High School is in Pittsfield Township - they have to call Pittsfield Township police - pretty simple - there is no choice.

robyn

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 3:22 p.m.

Heady: My experience with my childrens' schools has been very positive. They're in elementary and junior high now. And I have seen the teachers involve themselves in trying to guide the kids in a positive direction when it's possible. Like the teacher above stated - there ARE parents that just don't 'get it' - unfortunately their kids will be the losers. Chelsea High did (may still) have a drinking party rep. Again - that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the school system - it has EVERYTHING to do with the 'parental system'. And the McFly comparison... Oh please. I DO teach my kids to stand up for themselves, I think most parents do. But I do not teach them that the first thing they resort to if someone picks on them or says something stupid to them is to punch the person! They also understand that if someone is hitting them - they do have a right to defend themselves - but they shouldn't do things to provoke or instigate fights either. One really cool trait I've noticed in both of my kids is that they will defend other kids too. They don't like to see others picked on and will stand up for those kids as well as for themselves.

Michigan Mom

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 2:45 p.m.

Has anyone seen the movie Back to the Future? McFly lets himself get bullied in school, and he ends up getting bullied in his adult life. Change of scenario: McFly decides to stand up for himself, doesn't get bullied in his adult life. Anyone who expects there to be an adult supervisor around every child at all moments of time while in school are naive. Kids need to learn how to be social, deal with peers that they don't get along with, and how to avoid confrontations like this incident ON THEIR OWN. Its a big part of growing up, and is a valuable lesson they will need in the future.

goblue1

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 2:43 p.m.

JNS - why would you expect this in Willow Run or Ypsilanti? Kids are of lower SES? Kids are of minority races? What an ignorant statement. Let's see....Chelsea held the teen underage drinking title until Saline took it over in the last few years....or are they still tied for first? And, isn't it Saline that had the bomb problem last weekend? Bombs left on front lawns in upscale neighborhoods? Oh that's right, the news reported it as "Pittsfield Township". It was Saline. How about admitting that all districts share the some of the same issues and instead of pretending that we don't, let's start working together to help ALL of our children.

Macabre Sunset

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 2:24 p.m.

The problem is the state. When we were kids, we knew that if we crossed a line and tried to seriously injure someone, we would be expelled. The state does not allow expulsion today except in extraordinary circumstances. This needs to change. Instead, they have these silly "zero tolerance" laws that suspend kids for pointing fingers or bringing an aspirin to school. The state protects the most violent and dangerous children at the expense of everyone else. I wouldn't blame the teachers or the volunteers here. They weren't even on the playground in the past, and this sort of thing never happened. Yes, kids fought. But once the fight was over, there was no attempt to kill the downed kid the way there sometimes is today. Today, we allow crimes against our most vulnerable citizens that would land an adult in prison for the rest of his life.

LadySilence

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 2:11 p.m.

I am a teacher. We are trained to teach our subject matter, grade papers fairly and on time, and to assess skills. We did not have any classes in my program that taught us how to teach anti-bullying/life skills to our students, yet we are expected to do so anyway. And we try. We use examples from our own lives, we use examples from former students, we take events as they happen and turn them into "teaching moments". -but what good is my telling students that wanting to punch someone for saying their glasses are fake just makes them look foolish, when their parents and friends all tell them that "if someone says something to you, you go after them." Granted, most of the kids I work with are officially labeled At-risk or High-risk. But the problem goes beyond just my little school. Teachers do their best to help with properly socializing kids, but if the parents are counteracting what the teachers are trying to do, it's the parents who get listened to. I had a parent lecture her girls that they had to be respectful to all of their teachers, and then come up to me and demonstrate that her idea of "acceptable respect" was to talk back, interrupt, yell, scream, name-call, and snipe to get what they wanted. Guess which the girls followed? Mom's actions, not her lecture. I had another parent (different school)come to pick her daughter up after a rather rough girl-fight (hair on the floor type of fight), and when the vice principal told her "your daughter said some very nasty stuff to that girl" that started the fight, mom said "good, that's exactly what I told her to say." How can we teach kids not to fight, when the parents are teaching them that fighting is the best (if not only) way to get what they want or get their point across? Please do not blame the teachers for not teaching the students better morals, or for actually taking their one break during the day. The neglect here is on the part of the parents, and the misfortune of the untrained volunteers who probably expected the playground to be like it was when I was a kid - bullying consisted of name-calling, but kids were more interested in playing games than in beating each other up. Sure, Saline should invest in a training program for their playground attendants so they know what to watch for and how to break something up, within the sometimes ridiculous "hands off" laws they're hampered with. But the main responsibility lies with a) the kids who did the fighting, and b) the parents who taught them that fighting was a good idea.

akelly001

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 1:45 p.m.

alan B.....the point was you cant just "lump" kids together and say they were all bullies, for watching a fight.

angela

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 1:23 p.m.

I cant believe someone called Saline a hostile environnment, what a sissy. If your kid is anything like you no wonder they got picked on. Why is it that anyone with an ounce of confidence is called a good ol boy or a bully or mean, on top of that I have a feeling that most the people leaving cry baby comments, are in fact that, cry babies. Wake up cry babies sometimes things are meant to be handled with each other and not the teachers. Let the teachers teach and maybe as parents we can help are kids become productive adults. Or we can just teach them to run from all there problems and switch schools.

jns131

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 1:17 p.m.

Willow Run and Ypsilanti is where I expected this to happen. Not Saline. I guess it is spilling over into the better schools as well. When I pulled mine out of charter into an Ann Arbor school? She was bullied the first year. I became a volunteer during her lunch hour to make sure she was safe. She wasn't. I threatened and they made sure she was no where near the bully. As of this date? The bully is no longer in the school system. I do agree with the points made. Ann Arbor pounces on bullies faster then any school district ever. It will be interesting to see if these bullies are held up on charges like the one where that girl committed suicide and her playmates are now on charges. I will be watching how Michigan handles this. I hope they do not drop the ball on this one.

AMOC

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 12:36 p.m.

Dancer-girls' comments about the lack of training for lunch supervisors in Ann Arbor are consistent with much of what I've seen. School districts hire part-time staff or solicit parent volunteers in order to give the teachers a break. And while they mean well, those people consistently end up in a conversational cluster rather than engaging individual and small groups of students. In most of our local districts teachers also DO NOT supervise students during passing time (in middle and high schools) or before and after school bus loading / unloading. These crowded and unsupervised times are EXACTLY the times at which vulnerable kids in our schools are regularly bullied, harassed and assaulted. Very frequently, bullies use these opportunities to get even with a kid who has previously reported bullying behavior on the part of the aggressor. There is no silver bullet to solve this problem. Teachers need to explicitly teach students that bullying behavior is wrong, help them develop skills to resolve conflicts without physical assault or name-calling, and tolerance for differences in opinion and interests. All the adults in the schools need to pay more attention to what the kids are doing than to their conversations with each other, especially when students are moving around / mixing with other classes. And information on even minor bullying incidents where a staff member intervenes need to be 1) documented and shared with the parents of all involved students and 2)shared among all those adults, so that they can be on guard to head off retaliation. Without the sharing and documentation, the bullies can and do claim innocence, that this is the first time there has been a problem with their behavior, or that they were talking to someone else or... and the uninformed adult will almost always give them the benefit of a doubt. After a second, third, fourth experience with unchecked retaliation for having reported a problem, most victims refuse to talk to the school staff, and many will even stop confiding in their parents. This has happened with all three of my kids at various times and various schools.

amccauley

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 12:22 p.m.

And stuff like this is why I have been home schooling my kids! School should be a safe haven for kids to get a good education not a place where they fear for their lives. I blame our government and the parents for the sad shape our public schools are in. The class sizes are way to big, there are not enough books for even half the students per class. Too many parents don't care what their kids are doing these days as long as they are doing them somewhere else. I hope this child will recover from his injuries caused by the kids that did that to him! I hope that the guilty kids are punished for what they did! I'll even go as far as hope that the parents of the guilty are punished for not having better parenting skills and control over their kids! @RB: Yes, untrained volunteers are the ones that "keep an eye" on the students during lunch hour and recess.... at least that's how it worked when I worked for the Farmington Hills school district a number of years ago.

michaywe

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 12:20 p.m.

Who called the police? Why was Saline PD called and not Pittsfield? High school officials call Pittsfield PD when Student crime is suspected. Pittsfield PD interviews minors without parents present while bldg. Officials recite to students the district policy that requires students cooperation with police or get suspended! Does Saline PD interview minors without parents or other advocate present? My hunch is not and Heritage school officials have a choice of police dept's. I'll bet the Superintendents office was contacted by Heritage officials prior to calling police.

bunnyabbot

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 12:20 p.m.

@ypsigirl, as someone who was bullied in elementary school I would say pull your kid out of the school if you can. It left me with anxiety throughout middleschool and highschool

sh1

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 12:16 p.m.

"To this date I have never ever heard of any kids getting in trouble for the way they treat others." Just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it's not happening. Students are generally suspended for fighting in AAPS.

Elizabeth Nelson

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 12:12 p.m.

It's interesting to read these comments, the wide range of positions from "This is very serious and we need to address it" to "Big Deal, kids do this kind of stuff all the time." I am frequently reminded that all the nastiest kids I went to high school with-- the kind who had no empathy, obsessed over their social 'status' at the expense of others, felt like bullying was 'no big deal' or perhaps just harmless fun-- basically grew up just like I did and had children, instilling those same values in their children. The comments on this story are more revealing that the sparse details in this story. Without specific reference to this story (which sounds like it may or may not be true bullying), I would say: anti-social behavior isn't okay simply because everyone is doing it or kids are savvy enough to get away with it. Those of you who are happy to turn a blind eye to your children's lack of empathy (I suppose you could call it 'playful' viciousness) would be smart to reconsider that position.

stevek

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 12:07 p.m.

If after the police do a thorough investigation and find the student at fault, they should charge the parent, let due process run it's course, and throw the parent's butts in jail. What is done at home to discipline children these days? I'm sure the parents (of all involved) will say what good children they have. Shut-up and raise your kids correctly.

KeepingItReal

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:58 a.m.

DaLast Word: How can you blame President Obama for this incident!! The economy was screwed up before he came into office; we entered a war over a lie that is costing us close to a trillion dollars. The President didn't start that war: people are going bankrupt because of medical cost and they don't have insurance or insufficient insurance; our economy is all messed up because of greed by wall street and a lac of vision by those that reaped the benefit of this economy for many years. And you want to use your imagination to blame the President for this school incident!! My sympathy goes out to the parents of this young person because no child should have to go to school afraid for his/her safety no matter how bad the economy is.

Heady99

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:46 a.m.

Again Robyn all we can do as parents is raise our children not to do this kind of thing - but believe me there are many parents who do not and when that happens we need the school to step in and literally save these kids from bullying. When you have a job teaching children they are your responsibility and when they see this happening it is their responsibility to report it and hopefully bring the parents in and let them know! But when the parents have blinders on or they feel that this is nothing again the school has a responsibility to keep our children safe!

schoolsmuse

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:44 a.m.

AnnArbor.com--This is exactly the kind of story where you need to have resources at the end regarding where parents can go (besides the principal) when their children are being bullied. For instance--the Student Advocacy Center, Ozone House... And that is necessary even if, after the fact, it turns out that this child wasn't being bullied, because obviously the commenters are thinking about bullying.

Heady99

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:39 a.m.

Robyn you must have your head in the sand - Chelsea is one of the worst offenders of letting kids get away with bullying! I've been around for decades and have seen it first hand - I'm glad your situation worked out but that would be the first I've ever heard of! Yes we have wonderful schools but believe me they allow bullying everyday - it is alive and well in Chelsea unfortunately!

robyn

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:38 a.m.

Heady: Just wondering.... Where do we place parental responsibility? The teachers at the schools did not chhose to give birth to all the kids that attend the school. They are there performing a job, most teachers that I know go far beyond what their teachings responsibilities call for. Most do care about the kids they teach. That said - parents are the one's who made the decision/choice to bring a child/children into this world. In making that choice they must assume responsibility for raising their children to be responsible, decent human beings and they must be accountible if they fail to do so. I'm not sure when people decided that having kids but leaving it up to the schools to raise them properly became the norm. As a matter of fact - I feel it's my right and my responsibility - not only to my kids, but to society as a whole - to instill decent values in my my own kids! I don't really want to leave THAT important part of my parenting to anyone else. That goes equally for their 'spiritual' and their 'political/socio-ethics'. It's up to ME (and their Dad) to guide our children - not the school.

Riley

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:29 a.m.

Most people believe in zero tolerance until it is their child who gets in trouble. Those are the parents who say, "I don't support what my kid did, but....."

Riley

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:24 a.m.

Just because someone is "near the area of the incident." DOES NOT mean they are experts in what happened.

Heady99

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:23 a.m.

Until parents step up and make the school responsible for allowing bullying it will go on. I truly believe that the school districts should be sued because of this. They continue to allow students of all ages bully other kids and that is wrong on all levels. When the kids decide to fight back they are the ones that get in trouble and the kid(s) that were doing the bullying gets away scott free! Please people we really need to address this situation now and not later! These kids can be so mean some time that the kid they are bullying truly fear for their life. I loved when the papers had front page headlines "Zero Tolerance for Bullying" to this date I have never ever heard of any kids getting in trouble for the way they treat others. Since the schools aren't listening or taking this seriously I hope that someone will file a lawsuit and then maybe just maybe they will listen before we have a tragic situation on our hands!

Ram

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:13 a.m.

As a relative of a child who was near the scene of the incident...this wasn't a "bullying" situation. The generally agreed upon story is that the victim was calling the other boys names, and the other boys didn't tolerate it so that wanted to teach this kid a lesson. While I don't support the violence, especially to the degree that this student received, I don't agree with the "bullying" label that has been applied to this situation.

robyn

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:10 a.m.

They can 'educate' these kids in the classroom every day - all day long... But the bottom line is the basic education and social behavior is supposed to be taught in the home. Any kid has the potential to become a bully, it's up to the parents to take a good - honest - look at their children and change those behaviors BEFORE their child is involved in something like this. I have a daughter that has Asperger Syndrome, while she is quite high functioning now and in regular classrooms (she's even on the honor roll) - when she was younger she had a very difficult time controlling some of her more 'odd' behaviors. She made odd hand movements, she rocked (even while standing) and she seemed fairly oblivious to what was going on around her. She loved to play softball so we put her on a league when she was 8. It was not the other kids that treated her badly or said things to her - it was the parents in the stands. THEY made the comments and rude remarks. As the kids got older - the children of THOSE parents were the ones who began to pick on her in school. In my experience - I think I would have to draw a correlation between how the parents talk or behave and how their children eventually learn to talk and behave. The behavior of the adult/s in the home set the exapmle that the kids follow. Fortunately - we have an excellent school system that has done phenominal work with my daughter. (Chelsea) Most people would NEVER know that she is any different than any other kid her age. The school is also pretty vigilant about watching how the students interact and intervening before it gets carried away. Unfortunately - there is not much they can do about parents that ignore, laugh off or make excuses for their childrens' behavior. As for the boy in Saline - my heart goes out to him and to his parents. As a parent, we NEVER want to see our child hurt. The thought of them going to school - where it is supposed to be a safe place for them to learn and interact with other kids - and being picked on or beaten up is just heartbreaking. As a parent - you cannot step in and 'fight' their battles - but then again - WHY should they have to be burdened with these kinds of battles to begin with?

Mick52

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:06 a.m.

In investigations of juvenile offenders, those under the jurisdiction of the probate court, the police cannot interview the child unless a parent/guardian is present per Michigan law. Does anyone know if this happens in private schools too> Perhaps private schools are the way to go these days. Public schools, it seems are becoming too much of a burden in many ways.

brighton61

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 11:02 a.m.

This story is extremely sickening. Brings an immediate flashback to when I was growing up in the 70s, same scenario, except it was girls. I think about the person often who was the victim. I was a sixth-grader and although I did not partake in abusing this girl, I witnessed it. Forward 10 year increments beyond that until now and taking about the past at class reunions, it's still a topic of conversation. There are a lot of people carrying guilt to this day. My feeling is kids who are aggressive at school are aggressive at home, towards their siblings, etc. Somewhere this has got to stop.

Isabel Smith

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:49 a.m.

It is really sad that we are willing to blame anything and everything for a student being injured by another student...just because these things were occurring years ago or yesterday...THERE IS NO ACCEPTABLE EXCUSE!!! It is time we step up to the plate and realize we are perpetuating abuse amongst each other and then accuse other peoples of abuse, just done in a different manner, IEDs, bombs, etc., neither is acceptable! We are intelligent people, start using our intelligence and find ways to help our kids deal with conflict, keep them active physically and mentally, AND remember, we the parents, chose to have them and it is our responsibility to teach them how to get along.

DaLast word

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:37 a.m.

Last year my Saline, elementary age granddaughter had another disturbed young boy tell her that he was going to bring a gun to school. Teachers and principal were notified.....Nothing was done!

Eric P

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:37 a.m.

I see more than a few parents posting on this thread about the bullying their kids are experiencing-- I just want to encourage each and every one of you to make sure that you are documenting these reports. Write down the date, time and all the who, what, when, where, how and why that you get from your kids. Try to get as much exact information as you can about what is going on. As an old college professor of mine used to say, you didn't write it, you didn't do it. Also a picture is worth a thousand words, and with digital cameras and camera phones it's never been easier to snap a photo of your kid's ripped shirt, black eye, bruises or bloody noses. It is hard for a school administrator, staff or even the police to blow you off when you have that kind of evidence that something happened.

TXteacher

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:27 a.m.

Unfortunately, kids have numerous examples of adult bullying to "fuel their fire". Reality shows are examples of bullying to a large degree. Sites like this, which involve personal attacks routinely, are influences. Our political system, with mean snippets and personal attacks constantly run on TV, are examples. Let's face it- we have become a pretty ugly society when it comes to personal relations. It so easy to be mean-spirited when you don't have to be mean to anyone's face-via email, text message, facebook, etc., or be responsible for your words. It's so sad!

Alan Benard

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:25 a.m.

If you witness a Murder for being in the same area you are now part of the crime??? If you are a material witness to a crime and refuse to cooperate, you are obstructing justice. Lawyer up, mom.

Steve Bean

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:15 a.m.

For those interested in helping young kids understand reality and untrue thoughts, I highly recommend the book, "Tiger-Tiger, Is It True?", by Byron Katie, as well as her other books for adults, starting with "Loving What Is". Videos of Katie doing the Work with various (confused) people are available to view on her web site, www.thework.com.

krc

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 10:03 a.m.

@Dancergirl, it takes a special person to be a noon hour supervisor and you are to be commended.In your school, how many of you are there? To all you other commenters: At lunchtime, ALL the kids in the school are on the playground (easily a hundred or more) as opposed to during the day when only one or two classes are out there at once. That is, one adult watching maybe 20 kids. But the playground was divided into K-2 and 3-5 areas. Never were all the kids mixed together, and every play area was visible. Our system of disclipine was Wall Time. However, that was before the 'hands off policy' was instituted. How on earth do you break up a physical fight now? Stand on the sidelines and politely request that they stop it? Maybe use a little psychobabble...Now John, tell Timmy how you feel when he cracks you in the jaw, or pushes you down and jumps on your back... It is really sad when parents threaten to sue, and teach their kids to say that to the teacher or other adult if the kid is being urged to follow the rules (I had this happen to me in a KINDERGARTEN class), and then refuse to give permission to allow the principal to talk to their little darlings. I am all done raising my children, but parents out there, think about the message you are sending by 'protecting' your kids from being disciplined at school.

Hillary

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 9:50 a.m.

Wow, this absolutely makes me sick. Schools need to implement a zero tolerance system for bullying instead of trying to cover it up or set it aside. I am a student teacher and bullying is the one thing I refuse to tolerate. I was a victim of bullying myself as a child and have seen so many children bullied in the public schools which I have be in and out of.

MissM

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 9:44 a.m.

As a teacher I have seen numerous examples of parents teaching their kids that fighting is what they need to do when someone so much as says the wrong thing to them, or that telling on another student is something you never do. Kids need to be taught that if another student would be harmed then telling is exactly the right thing to do.

momwhocares

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 9:15 a.m.

HuronBob... you are dead on. The majority of the comments below are assumptions made by people that don't know the story. This was NOT a bullying incident. There are many facts omitted. Lets leave the investigation summary to the authorities that have heard all of the facts. Even they are not privy to first hand witness of the events, they are subject to their own life experiences when evaluating the combined stories of the witnesses. I sure don't envy them! I hope they can consider the constitution when they complete the judgement. As for the assistants that were responsible on the playground... how many of you have ever tried to watch over 50-100 children on a playground at one time? There is no certification that can make one adult more qualified than another to conduct this task successfully. What might appear to be bullying or playing may be the other. What started the "ring" of kids, is unknown to the comment writers. Did anyone consider that the child that was injured requested this as a game? The second incident does not imply the kids in the ring were the second offenders; the injured child could just as easily have been the cause or start of both incidents. Assumptions are not going to resolve this issue, they only fuel a simple situation at a school playground that is being escalated into a bigger issue than it really is.

stunhsif

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 9:13 a.m.

@ffej440, Ditto my friend. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and calm down. I graduated Saline in 1977 and have two kids that graduated in 05 and 08. Currently have a son who is a sophmore who will graduate in 2012 and a son who will enter kindergarten in 3 years.Saline Schools have a lot of problems but bullying is at the bottom of the list. There is a huge problem with drugs and drinking which far surpasses bullying issues. @RB, give me a break about your concern having an "untrained parent volunteer who is responsible for the safety of our children". We all are PARENTS RB!!!!! I think we all know how to interact with children on a playground? I am not a teacher but I coached Saline Middle School track and field in the early eighties (when I was in my early twenties) and was responsible for around 100 boys and girls for 2 hours five days a week. Had some discipline issues here and there but overall I never had a problem. So get off your high horse and quit it with the thinking that "only certified teachers can handle the students".

Scott

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:50 a.m.

I wish we could point out specific reasons why this incident happened and how to prevent it but let's face it folks - bullying seems to be the new national pastime. Everything from cyber-bullying (just read some of the comments on this site for local examples of trolling) to angry mobs outside the White House (yes, I know it's our right to protest but some of the hatred coming out of these gatherings is becoming very scary). And kids are watching it all, learning that if you don't like something or someone you bully your way through it or them. If someone gets in your way, just shove them. Who has time for "Please excuse me"? It's their fault for being weak, right? People, we need to get back to being civil to one another. Teach by example.

angela

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:36 a.m.

Teachers are to teach our kids. I imagine everyone who commented thus far also complains that the teachers do to much. We should be thanking the volunteer for volunteering, not degrading her. If this is an ongoing event with the child who got beat up perhaps he his starting the trouble himself. Doesnt anyone remember seeing the bully get beat up. Doesnt anyone remember seeing a fight or someone getting picked on growing up. Some people are to lazy to work, some people are not smart enough to succeed, some people just have bad luck but we all have to struggle some more than others but struggle none the less. If the "victim" was a victim, the aggressor or a willing player none of us know. Yet we still jump to what we think is the righteous cause, in more cases than not causing more problems for all involved. In the words of the late Goerge Carlin "we are screwing up our kids with all the things we do to them, if we really love our kids, leave them the f. alone and let them grow and figure things out so that they can become functioning adults." Or I guess we can all just gather around and cry about everything.

ypsigirl

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:30 a.m.

My son is being bullied at his school (not Saline). He comes home from school crying and has headaches. He does not want to go to school. We spoke to the principal and were told it is being handled. Now he gets bumped intentionally when in line, pinched and things are said on the playground that my son will not repeat. Bullying happens not only in school but also at work for adults. I know a person who has been off work for months because of bullying on the job caused this person to be physically sick and unable to eat or sleep.

sh1

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:25 a.m.

@dancergirl: Re "The teacher's union fought to be free of these duties during noon hour. This is their break time," this is the teachers' lunch time. They have 45 minutes to eat, return phone calls, and set up for the afternoon. They are thankful for this time and the lunch staff who cover it.

ffej440

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:22 a.m.

NEWSFLASH- Children fight on playgrounds! Please where did you people grow up. Saline grad here k-12, and a playground fight is not really news. I've seen a student knocked out before and plenty of fights. As children age it tapers off- more fights in younger grades but they don't knock each other out. There is no one to blame -its called growing up, and its the same in every public school. Also we only had one teacher and a couple of volunteers and that was over 30 years ago.

aasalineparent

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:12 a.m.

I am quite surprised and disappointed that I had to read of this incident in the newspaper. I have a child in attendance at Heritage and all I new of the incident shortly after it ocurred was in an email that I received from the Heritage principal stating that there was an incident on the playground and that after the incident, many of the other students were spreading rumors about it and we should not believe what our children were telling us. I asked my child and he told me that he knew that somebody was hurt at recess and that he knew the name of the injured student, but he didn't know the details. It makes me very unhappy and concerned for the welfare of all of the students that the parents were not informed by the school right away -- that those "in charge" do not have enough trust in the parents to tell us the truth immediately and let us step in and step up to help.

annarborfan

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 8:11 a.m.

As a parent of Saline Schools, wondering why parent volunteers are watching our children. Why wouldn't an adult volunteer walk over to simply check it out. Where there is a huddle of kids... something is always going on. Wake up Saline Administration - you are responsible for all the children during school hours.

dancergirl

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:58 a.m.

I have been a noon hour coordinator in Ann Arbor for six years. Unfortunately, I can imagine this sort of incident happening on the playground. My staff is committed to the safety and well being of these children. We care about these kids. However, there is no training and some are paid $8.00 to $10.00 per hour for two hours of work during the middle of the day. The teacher's union fought to be free of these duties during noon hour. This is their break time. Administratively, no one really wants to be responsible for noon hour. It is also difficult for us to intervene unless there is a physical altercation. We are not allowed to touch the children and we are not allowed to address social issues like exclusion that can lead up to these kinds of situations. Vulgar language can be reported, but often 'bullying' behavior is continual and intentionally concealed. Observing a group of children encircling another child should always be investigated. What helps us is actually knowing the kids you're working with and having enough people to supervise sometimes 100 children on the playground at a time.

akelly001

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:55 a.m.

I realy wish the facts in this story were reported correct. The actual physical fight was between 3 students, and the others were "watching". While we all hope that our kids would know what to do at 11 and 12, the fact is, most adults would not jump in to stop a fight. So if you were watching...you are now a bully? If you witness a Murder for being in the same area you are now part of the crime??? Everyone is quick to blame and judge for everything these days and not bother to gather all the facts in the story. The kids that were involved in the physical fight should be punished, and I hope that the child is ok.

anonamoose

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:52 a.m.

Kids have been beating up kids forever. It is interesting, however, how much more violent these actions have become. Is it because our kids are playing realistic video games? My 2nd grade son came home from a playdate, they had played Halo. WONDERFUL!! not.... Stop allowing your kids to play video games that are not age appropriate! In fact, throw the whole game system away. Kids don't know how to play anymore... Is it because our kids have no outlet from school, organized sports? Why must it all be so structured? Where is the freeplay? Is it because parents hover over their children and don't let them get dirty and work it out with other kids? Is it because we expect our boys to sit all classday and deny them recess when they can't sit still? This happened to my son, for real. I pray for the family.

scooter dog

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:51 a.m.

Hello, Jeffery Fieger,I hope the schools have good insurance because their going to need it Schools are RESPONSIBLE for kids safety while in school,not the case here.

Lola

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:45 a.m.

This is exactly why I pulled my kids OUT of Saline Schools. My daughter was being bullied by a bunch of Mean Girls starting in the 3rd grade! The mothers didn't think that their little darlings would never do anything like that. When you go to the principal - Les Sharon, I'm talking about you - I was told that they are there to teach the kids and if they don't get along it's a neighbor issue, not a school issue (um, the mean girls don't live in my neighborhood, we only knew them from school). Teacher can't be bothered to watch kids at recess and if they do go out there, they chat amongst themselves. WAKE UP SALINE - start taking care of your schools. Get Graden and his gang of good 'ole boys out of there and lets get some qualified people to run the show. I'm SO HAPPY that my kids are out of this hostile environment. Prayers to the child that was injured and I hope that the authorities go forward with charge against the bullies. Let's keep our kids safe.

anonamoose

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:44 a.m.

Of course, it's the teachers fault! What do they expect: a lunch break? A bathroom break? Teacher's should not only receive a cut in pay, but they should not be allowed to eat at all during the work day and they should wear diapers. That would definitely solve EVERY problem!!

Judy

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:31 a.m.

Actually, school violence has experienced a serious decline in the past 10 years or so. It certainly does feel like it's happening more and more because of increased media exposure. Of course, this doesn't minimize the seriousness of this situation. I must say that I would hope that the police would get my permission to talk with my 11 year old. My son has reported some more minor fights on the playground at his school where teachers supervise. He frequently jokes that it rarely seems to occur to teachers that the circle of kids might signal a fight (or something else that they shouldn't be doing). So, it's not just parents who miss this type of behavior. There are lots of effective anti-bullying programs out there. I sure hope that local schools take this seriously.

nancy

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:30 a.m.

Schools have a responsibility to assure the safety of its students. Admittedly, they cannot watch everyone all the time and certainly conflicts occur. However, when these disputes esclate to injuries leading to hospitalization something is amiss. You don't have to wonder why more parents are opting for home schooling. I hope the student is OK.

YPboyWRheart

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:28 a.m.

A kick in the head is an assault to intentionally injure the victim. Wake up Saline,the bullies are there. How come it took so long for This story to reach the paper. What happens next,will the victim bring a weapon to school to protect him self? Sound like the 50,s at Ypsi Hi.

greymom

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:25 a.m.

Teaching children should start in the home- parents need to do their part also! But, we as a whole should all be setting a good example, are you? Bullies have been around forever but we need to put a stop to it,NOW!!! Adults do you get into disagreements in front of kids, do you ever go to blows in front of kids- we are part of the problem, we must set the right example first!!!! How we behave effects all young people!

bs

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7:23 a.m.

Josber, I work in education (not at saline)... please be aware that the problem does not lie entirely with the schools. I witnessed a situation once where a student walking down a hall, with absolutly no provocation and with no previous history with the other student, lashed out and struck him in the face with his fist, knocked him down and hit him two more times before anyone could step in. It took all of ten seconds, there was a teacher no further than 15 feet away. There was absolutly no way to stop this attack, short of never allowing two students within striking distance at any time. My frustration is all of the judgemental finger pointing that goes on, and how everything seems to be the fault of the schools or a teacher. If someone can prove fault, I'll be the first to advocate for a serious response, until the, can we just stop allowing uninformed posters from playing judge and jury. These comment sections pull down the integrity of this "news" organization to the point that they eclipse the actual content and drive people away.

josber

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 7 a.m.

That is a good example of what can happen if the schools are not diligent in their care of children throughout the whole day. And think HuronBob, maybe the kid kicked by a bunch of others, and pushed, had secondary medical complications that made him susceptible to even more injury and you may never know that. That was a preventable incident. Let it be a teachable moment to all schools.

bs

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:53 a.m.

"and the idea that a push in the back snapped the boys head back hard enough to cause a seizure, that doesn't make sense. " You might want to look into that, doc...that's not what the reading i've done says....

bs

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:49 a.m.

"Amazingly, the police still need permission to talk to the students? Why is it that the person perpetuating the crime is always protected first? " perhaps it has something to do with the constitution and the protection of the rights of children, but, heck, what do I know?

bs

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:48 a.m.

"This behavior is beocming an everyday event. "...really Breina... could you cite the data on that?

bs

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:47 a.m.

Good job gang... let's indict everyone involved, parents, kids, teachers, administration, nobody has mentioned god yet, but I'm sure he'll catch some blame from one of you eventually..(and, don't forget Obama, seems like EVERYTHING is his fault recently). What you have here is some pretty loose reporting with very little information... what do we know for certain??? A student was injured at school, it seems the injury was caused by one or more other students. That's about it, the police haven't investigated yet, the school hasn't released any additional information.. But hey, pile on...that's what these comment sections are for.. it allows anyone with a keyboard to be judgemental, jump to conclusions, point fingers, laugh, and belittle everyone in an article.. beam me up, scottie, these people are beyond my understanding...

Breina

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:24 a.m.

This behavior is beocming an everyday event. What has happened to our children? They are violent and seem to have little respect for life. The bigger question is, why are grade schoolers beating another child to a point that a child is put into a hospital? What are they thinking? What are their parents doing? Who is teaching humanity? Granted, teachers should have been paying attention...see a group of kids gathered, there is probably something going on. This is much bigger than supervision!

trespass

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:17 a.m.

Something sounds fishy. First, if the students had time to gather in a circle around the two boys, then it was a fight. Thus, the following quote doesn't make sense. We havent talked to all the kids involved, but theres no information we have yet that indicates this was an assault to intentionally injure the victim, Bunten said. Second, I am a physician and the idea that a push in the back snapped the boys head back hard enough to cause a seizure, that doesn't make sense. This sounds like bullying and the school administration is trying to minimize its significance. That is just the kind of behaviour on the part of school administrators that allowed the recent suicide of a teenage girl who was being bullied and the administrators all claimed ignorance of the bullying after her death. Let's have some candor and responsibility on the part of the school administration.

BJ One

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 6:03 a.m.

Amazingly, the police still need permission to talk to the students? Why is it that the person perpetuating the crime is always protected first? If this is the second incident with this child being attacked, then obviously he is being bullied. What has the school done to protect him? How come there was no teacher in sight? Maybe the first punishment was not strong enough to show the previous and current attackers that the school is serious about protecting students in school and that their acts would not be tolerated at all. All these questions need to be answered by the School principle, obviously he/she failed to have any adequate planning in protecting the kids at school. The previous punishment failed to send a clear message to all students about bullying other fellow students at school that it will not be tolerated under any circumstances. This should not be brushed easily aside, we need answers and responsible people to provide education and safety for our kids in Michigan schools. Unless this is properly addressed, it will most likely be repeated.

tajjer

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 5:34 a.m.

My son reported an incident to me on his Saline Area Schools playground, but it was dismissed because no adult saw it. When I decided to visit the playground at recess, all the adults were in one spot and kids were all over the place. No wonder no one saw anything. And if there is a group of kids - you should investigate, not just say I couldn't see anything because there was a group of kids in the way. I think there needs to be a little more vigilence on these playgrounds.

RB

Sat, Apr 24, 2010 : 5:31 a.m.

An untrained parent volunteer is responsible for the safety of our children during the school day? Where are the teachers? Sorry, but the teacher should be out there. A parent volunteer may be an aid to a teacher but not have sole responsibility for the safety of 20-30 children.