Ann Arbor Administrator Roger Fraser said confusion over location delayed response to fatal fire
City Administrator Roger Fraser gave a report to the Ann Arbor City Council Monday night, explaining more details surrounding a tragic fire that claimed the lives of three people on Nov. 1.
Fraser said the lack of good information from 911 callers on the home's location contributed to the delay in response by the city's fire department. According to the timeline Fraser outlined Monday, the time between the first call of smoke and arrival at the Waverly Road address was 15 minutes.
Firefighters search the rubble for family members on Nov. 1.
Mark Bialek | For AnnArbor.com
Three members of the Alexandropoulos family were killed in the blaze in their southwest Ann Arbor home. Their bodies were found at 1701 Waverly Road several hours after an early morning fire caused the home's walls and roof to collapse into the basement.
Fraser said the first call "came from some folks who live in the area and smelled smoke, got up from their home and drove into the neighborhood trying to find the location where there might be smoke coming from a property, and they located a home on Greenview."
"They called in because there was a lot of black smoke emanating from the chimney and there was nobody home, and they were concerned that this was the location of that smell and that call came in approximately 2:53 in the morning," Fraser said. "We actually dispatched two trucks to that location at that time, from two different stations, and when they got there, it was plain that that was not the (location)."
Fraser said another 911 call was made from a residence to the west of Greenview. The caller reported spotting a fire to the east, "and their address was on Waverly," Fraser said.
"Whether or not they actually meant the place across the street from them or not, we don't know," Fraser said. "But the fact is that they did not specify that."
Fraser said the first dispatch the city received with the correct address came at about 3:06 a.m. He said the police department then responded within a minute, and the fire department was there in two minutes.
Fraser said the geographic layout of the neighborhood was another challenge.
"It's quite a matrix of streets for which there is not direct access to particularly this block," he said. "You have to get at it indirectly through several different side streets and it's very difficult to find, particularly if you don't have a specific address and that was part of the dilemma.
"We got incomplete information and, given what was going on at that time of the morning, it was very difficult to isolate where that was occurring based on information we got from calls."
Council Member Marcia Higgins, D-4th Ward, said she talked people who were near the scene.
"They did say that when the firefighters came it was fully engaged - there were flames coming out of the roof and the firefighters did an extraordinary job of containing those flames," she said.
"I believe it's also likely that when the first call came that that home was already fully engaged, so the information came late," Fraser added. "There was no indication on the property that there were smoke detectors ... and we have a lot of information about the scene that indicated that these folks probably got trapped by a fire that started in the basement."
The cause of the fire has not been determined. The county Medical Examiner's Office previously said Demetri, Joanna and John Alexandropoulos died of smoke inhalation. John Alexandropoulos, 42, also had a brain hemorrhage, but it's unclear whether that occurred before or during the fire, officials said.
Mayor John Hieftje said one lesson everyone can learn from the tragedy is to check the batteries and connections of their smoke detectors.
Fraser added to that.
"Our request is that if you have such an incident that you're unfortunately involved with, please give us as specific information as you can when you call," he said. "Because at that time, in the context of what was going on, our firefighters knew nothing more than the fact that that Greenview address could have been the location that they were all talking about."
Ryan J. Stanton covers government for AnnArbor.com. Reach him at ryanstanton@annarbor.com or 734-623-2529.
Comments
DaveQ
Wed, Nov 18, 2009 : 11:50 a.m.
Excellent point Steve. Everyone is so eager to cast blame and point fingers. It's really a sad way to approach this.
Steve Johgart
Wed, Nov 18, 2009 : 11:07 a.m.
Man, I'm trying to find the cause of the brouhaha here. It sounds to me like everyone did their best. The first callers smelled smoke, suspected a fire, went to a lot of trouble to find a house which quite reasonably appeared to be the source of the smoke. They called the fire department, as was appropriate. The fire department went to that address, saw that there was indeed smoke coming from that address but determined there was no house fire. No one at that point had any reason to suspect there was any other fire in the neighborhood...smoke was smelled, the supposed source of smoke was found and investigated, there was no fire at that location but due diligence had been taken. Everyone did exactly the right thing (and the neighbors should be particularly commended for going to all the trouble they did). Then once the correct address of the fire was called in, the fire department was there in 2 minutes despite the confusing neighborhood. Not bad response time in my estimation. Where's the cause for all the hand-wringing here? Tragedies happen sometimes, despite the best efforts to contain them. It's not always necessary to cast blame.
Cash
Wed, Nov 18, 2009 : 5:02 a.m.
Wow. That explanation is a DISGRACE. 1. Where's the 911 tapes? 2. Why is the geographical matrix of the area difficult to the folks who need to get there the fastest? Goodness. If I lived there I'd be moving! Firemen can't get to my house fast because its.....difficult. 3. Were these callers called back for further information? 4. This is a medium sized city. How do governmental agencies find fires in LARGE cities? It must take them days! 5. When people call with emergencies they are upset and need to be guided by dispatchers to calm down, get the facts straight etc. And I am sure these dispatchers are trained to do that. So was it really the callers fault? What really went wrong? I am sure the city administrator is concerned about lawsuits right now. But the taxpayers are more worried about the ability of the emergency folks to report to an emergency situation in a timely manner.....and what will happen when THEY need help. Again, the explanation is unacceptable.
a2phiggy
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 11:11 p.m.
This tragedy may have been averted by a system that should be in place already - a system in which we, as residents, can register our cell phone numbers with the police so that they are linked with our home address. I have asked the PD about it, and they just say it's not possible. We can't afford to keep a home phone line anymore, and I bet many of the cell callers on this fire lack a land line. In addition, if you are going out in the middle of the night to try to ascertain where a fire, fight, or emergency is taking place, you'll most likely take your cellular phone -- even if you've stepped from your home, they would know the close proximity to your location. A2 needs to consider implementing this type of system to avoid this type of tragedy and many others. Imagine your school-aged children grabbing their cell phones if you, their parent, has a medical emergency. In their panic, do you really think they could clearly articulate your address and directions to your house? I doubt it - even as adults, we're often left speechless by a tragic situation we're dealing with - the more safeguards for promoting positive communication between residents and the FD & PD the better.
Thick Candy Shell
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 10:36 p.m.
Jim Rogers, I appreciate the "drills" and the need to know streets, but we are talking about close to 400 miles of streets with 1500 different names. With cut backs these guys move everywhere. I have been all over this town for over 20 years and still draw a blank on a few streets. The way we design neighborhoods to make them look nice does not help the emergency folks. There is a reason in the past we had square blocks (down town) it resulted in easy and quick access.
Jim Mulchay
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 9:03 p.m.
(1) It seems from the articles that no matter how fast the Fire Department responded the lives would still have been lost; (2) It seems like the 911 process does not have a consistently accurate procedure for identifying the location of the problem; I guess I would like to see the city discuss how a 911 call is handled and what tools are available for correctly identifying the location prior to dispatch - if the caller is not "at the site" is that identified? DTE has a tracking system based on home phones - does the city have access to that (or something better)?
Jim Rogers
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 8:03 p.m.
Speaking as an ex-fireman, in our city we constantly practiced "street drills". You were expected to know the streets and addresses, especially the difficult ones to access, for all firehouses in the city and many of the surrounds. You may have to "fill in" or assist or transfer.
David Briegel
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 7:45 p.m.
You are all missing a very salient point. Most of these people don't live here and aren't familiar with the area! Why do you think the roads are so clogged at rush hour! Most are part of the occupation army that lives in the paradise outside of civilization. They don't pay our taxes and they commute! They can't understand the directions and don't know where things are!
KKB
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 7:03 p.m.
I live just a few houses down from this tragic location. Just giving directions to family/friends has often made me wonder (read: worry), "If I ever need an ambulance, or fire truck, I hope they find me." This article and subsequent thread makes me feel no more secure in that, even though some of our lives depend on it. That being said... let's ensure our police, fire, and EMS units are more-than-knowledgeable about even us small, obscure, "hard to find" streets. Some of our lives depend on it. I fully support our first responders, and know they did everything they could. I would never bash them (as so many of you have -- shame on you). Instead, I propose that we commit to learn from this tragedy, and move forward. Some of our lives -- ALL of our lives -- depend on it. R.I.P neighbors...
DaveQ
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 3:39 p.m.
Fraser stated that he thought it was likeley that the home was already "fully engaged" at the time of the first call. For the readers that think the callers are being blamed, it sounds like even if everyting was executed perfectly, but the callers (and the FD), they would would still end up with the same tragic result.
John Hritz
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 3:32 p.m.
I'm with the Mayor and @bellhelmet on this one. Working smoke detectors and exit plans (particularly for two story structures) are likely primary causes. We owe the folks that called in our gratitude for attempting to pinpoint the source of the smoke. Mr. Fraser's assertion that root cause for the delay was the imprecision (and lateness) of the callers' report is incorrect regardless of the contents of the 911 recordings. There may be other things to learn after the FOIA request is filled.
af3201sps
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 3:14 p.m.
Lee, I appreciate that you would respond and I hope the city provides ALL the tapes/calls. It would seem that someone called from a landline or home phone which would provide dispatchers an address or landmark. I remember reading that neighbors on Waverly Rd had called AAPD dispatch. Not to sound disrespectful but reading what you quote Mr. Fraser as saying makes this sound like it was an unorganized goose chase and it appears that the citizens that called are being blamed. Could the dispatchers not have kept someone on the phone until fire crews arrived to confirm that they were in the right area? There needs to be some hard questions asked about this incident. Ten minutes to respond to a working fire is too long. Perhaps the city could ask the state Fire Marshalls office to come in or the Michigan State Police and conduct an investigation from beginning of calls to actual arrival of crews on scene.
Jody Durkacs
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 3:09 p.m.
In Fraser's and the firefighters' defense, this neighborhood is really convoluted and hard to navigate. You have to jog around several side streets to get to Waverly, and even people who live there have trouble navigating if it's not directly to or from their houses. As someone who was both a food delivery driver and taxi driver in the 90s, I can say that even professional drivers whose job it is to know the city streets inside and out can get turned around and have to pull up a map to get to houses in there. It is well known among drivers as one of the most confusing subdivisions in Ann Arbor.
Sparky79
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 3:05 p.m.
@racerx - "So from 2:53am from the incorrect location, to 3:06am with the correct location what was the FD doing in those 13minutes?" Go back and read the story. The first CALL was at 2:53am, NOT when they got to the scene. I imagine it took them more than a few minutes to leave the station and arrive at the scene. To suggest they stood around and did nothing for 13 minutes is uncalled for. Second, looking for a puff of smoke in the middle of the night when it's dark? Didn't they smell smoke and go search? Greenview is about a half mile away from Waverly and depending which part of Greenview you're on, your view to the west, where Waverly is located, is blocked by houses and trees. Trying to spot smoke in the middle of the night would be very difficult. As for expecting them to drive around in circles looking for something, well, if the smoke has already traveled a half mile and probably further, which way should they start looking? There are a lot of streets in that area. What if the fire truck starts going in the opposite direction while blindly looking? Now they're even further away when they get the actual address. Then you'd be hiding behind your keyboard complaining about that. I grew up just down the block from the house that burned down. Fraser is correct in saying Waverly is a difficult street to find, especially if you aren't familiar with that neighborhood. I don't know if the fire trucks have GPS. There's an "easy" way in off Scio Church, then there's accessing the neighborhood off Stadium. I didn't take Fraser's remarks as offensive as some of you folks did. If the FD didn't receive accurate information, like the first call that sent them to Greenview, then obviously there's going to be a delay in finding the real source of the fire. They did the best job they could based on the information they were given. It's very sad what happened to my neighbors, but myself and the other folks in the neighbor are thankful for the FD's response in preventing the fire from spreading any further. You guys can go back to bashing them now. Simply put, I won't.
saltedpistachio
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 2:45 p.m.
I misread the story, I thought it was the fire department commenting on the calls. Ugh, sorry for the mistake.
racerx
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 2:15 p.m.
A2.com. Thanks for attempting to obtain the tapes. This will hopefully provide more information. I agree with some of the comments. Why hasn't the FD responded instead of Fraser? There is still a chief right? Where were the patrol cars that night who typically respond also? Could they had driven around looking for smoke in the air/sky? Despite it being dark, a plume still could had been seen or smelled. Sadly, cell phone technology only pinpoints a general area once the signal is bounced along a tower. If for example a "land-line" was used this might show the location on GPS if the community has this technology. But, two trucks were sent and both found nothing? What were they doing in the meantime? What does Fraser mean when he says, a couple of times, "...what was going on..."? So from 2:53am from the incorrect location, to 3:06am with the correct location what was the FD doing in those 13minutes? What were the PD doing? Was the PD there even? So Fraser also says that due to the location of the street Waverly, "...it's very difficult to find..." Isn't it one of the important jobs of both the FD and PD is to know where streets are? How did the PD get there before the FD? Again, couldn't a patrol had driven around the area looking? Or were they parked watching for speeders on Main St., Stadium Blvd., Packard, Washtenaw, M-14, Depot. Oh, and thanks Mayor, I'll remember to get a smoke detector and change it's batteries at Daylight savings time. Sheez, what advice. Thanks for being a "leader."
Lee Higgins
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 1:42 p.m.
We have requested a copy of all 911 calls, dispatch and radio communication for this incident under the Freedom of Information Act. We will obtain this material, review it and write about it.
wuttha
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 1:37 p.m.
No GPS? No GoogleMaps?
saltedpistachio
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 1:34 p.m.
Don't 911 dispatchers have caller ID? Can't they call back in a situation like this to explain that they need clarification? The callers were citizens helping out. These were not false reports. The attitude of the fire department only exacerbates the problem of people thinking "Why should I call? Someone probably already called it in." Suspicious activity is enough to make a call. Smelling strong smoke is suspicious. If you wait until you know what the absolute exact location of the emergency is before you call 911, it may be too late.
Eric64
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 1:18 p.m.
Well Roger way to push the blame off the city.Well then maybe the city should stop laying off all the fire fighters. Way to go Roger you should be proud
af3201sps
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 1:12 p.m.
I agree with you bellhelmet. There needs to be more transparency from city officials to this story. Annarbor.com, why are you not asking for the 911 calls and providing them to your readers? Many times communities immediatley release 911 calls to the media so that the public knows exactly what happened and not just a police chief or city administrators spin on the story. It does seem like the people who called are being blamed for the tragedy.
af3201sps
Tue, Nov 17, 2009 : 1:08 p.m.
Mr. Fraser should make the 911 calls available to the public (and news media). Stating "lack of good information from 911 callers" can mean different things. Not having heard the calls and not wanting to assign blame, I wonder if police dispatchers did a thorough job of trying to clarify exactly where the home on fire was. I believe in an earlier story in annarbor.com, people that called complained that police dispatchers stated to them that they didn't even know where Waverly Rd was. Why not allow citizens to hear those calls and determine what was being told to police dispatchers and why the confusion. Were the residents who lived in this area the ones not providing "good information" or would better training for police dispatchers help them to know the streets and geography of the city?