With Poll: Ann Arbor City Council considering parking fine hike

Nothing says "Never come back to Ann Arbor" like a big ol' parking fine. If the goal here is to drive away people from visiting Ann Arbor, a hike in parking is the way to go. If instead you want to keep people coming back, good parking, easy to use parking systems, etc... that's the way to go.

Prior post on this topic for reference:

http://www.annarbor.com/news/increasing-parking-fines-using-social-media-topics-of-ann-arbor-city-council-session-tonight/

I guess Fred is saying the most important reason people come to Ann Arbor is that they can park illegally and not have to pay. If that is all the city has to offer then it is in deep trouble.

The city has plenty of parking spaces. I have lived here over 20 years and worked downtown many of those years. Never had a problem finding a legal parking space day, evening, or weekends except during exceptional times like Art Fair, etc. People who complain about parking tickets just aren't paying attention.

(Now if you want to talk about parking rates that is another argument for another time.)

Well John I agree with you. If the city wants to save or raise money Why doesn't the city council take a pay cut or stop buying new police cars and stop building all the new things. With all the parking garages the city still thinks thisd is a good idea.

So the city is short of cash, eh.
Whose bright idea was it to send out those fancy slick color photo calenders to everyone from the water department?
I think I would prefer a break on the water bill in lieu of this unsolicited offering from the city!

And how about all the money spent on those ridiculous street "improvements" downtown with curbs jutting out into the path of traffic.

first, they put in these meters that you can not add time to when someone pulls away, even if they still had time in the spot, so the city pockets that bit extra "for free" now they want to raise parking, when there is such a high concentration of unique small local businesses downtown, which this will hurt. And at this time?

CC priorities are questionable

I'm not sure that Fred was arguing that people come to Ann Arbor to park illegally aaman. Perhaps the thought is if you are having a pleasant conversation over lunch and happen to lose track of the meter for 10 mins, $15 is enough to pay when the vulture descends minutes after expiration. I got a ticket at 2:37pm the other day, while running for the meter that expired at 2:37. Nice work- that efficiency makes our downtown so appealing.

City council is right to study comparisons to cities like Traverse City and Royal Oak. Those are fair comparisons, size and regionally. We are not Austin or Seattle (regionally, economically). We have a much more troubling economic situation to deal with then those areas. And, we need to encourage people to come to our city in the midst of this challenging economy. The parking vultures are a huge turn off.

How can Hieftje even begin to be objective? He sits on the DDA's board! To suggest that patrons just park in a DDA own parking structure is still double dipping! This from the same person who's building a 600 space Coliseum, while narrowing Division street to two lanes. What a cluster job that will be with cars attempting to get out of downtown at 5-6pm. Who's going to want to park in that thing, so patrons will attempt to park at, and I use this term loosely, "available" parking meters on the street, but with fee's increasing to the cost of a "small plate" at most downtown resturants, the city really should try to find revenue eleswhere. Again, this from the same mayor who would put bike lanes on every road in the city, but is building a momument to the car. What's next? Fee's to park your bike at those cicular hoops on the streets that nobody knows what their for? Oh, gawd forbid I give the city any ideas on how to yet generate more revenue. Sell the golf courses, close Mack pool, live within your means just like "real people" do!

BINGO: "Hieftje, who sits on the board of the Downtown Development Authority, said there's an easy way for the public to avoid parking fines: Park in a DDA parking structure."

The mayor appoints his puppets to the DDA, builds more structures, raises fines, and then uses the increased parking strucuture profits as a cash cow for the city. That's why Greff and DeVarti are gone as will anyone else who opposed the Bob Marley tune singing mayor.

Bingo!

"...they put in these meters that you can not add time to when someone pulls away, even if they still had time in the spot, so the city pockets that bit extra "for free" now..."

I agree 100% - they have already raised their revenue from the meters.

Rate increases are inevitable, but why does Ann Arbor have to compare itself to other cities? I like the early payment option (for a lower fine). Why not make it possible to pay the fine at the parking garages? So out of town folks can pay it ASAP? Its more the hassle of paying it than the amount.

I own a business in the Kerrytown neighborhood. The meter people are merciless. Its hard enough to compete. Already, the city has increased the parking fees, now the fines as well. We just had a fine increase in the last couple of years. The mayor and council are way off base as usual. The spending is out of control. Everyone has to cut back, the city has to do the same. The city hall expansion was a bad idea from the beginning. Vote the mayor out next time!!!!

Clever way of getting the city tax passed, eh? Disguised as a parking citation.

Raise your hand if you believe this increased fine is another way the city is taking your money because they aren't allowed to raise taxes.
Raise your hand if you already avoid shopping downtown.
Raise your hand if you enjoy shopping in the surrounding towns and villages that don't charge you to park.
Raise your hand if you think this mayor has been in office way too long.

In every city in the state, under Michigan law, the Mayor or the City Administrator is required to sit on the DDA. The Mayor gets to choose. This proposal came from the Administrator's staff, not the council or Mayor.

I am forever amazed at the gripers on this site. It is almost as if A2 were not in Michigan where every city is hurting. (Like most across the nation.) The major problem in A2 city government is that 40% of the land is non-taxable. The city gets 27% of the property tax stream.

Don't want a ticket? Pay the meter. As the man said, tickets can be avoided, just park in a structure.

Ann Arbor needs more parking, it is too bad the new structure is only a replacement for what they lost when they took down an old structure and what they will be losing when other spaces go off line.

Seattle is too big but comparisons to Traverse City and Royal Oak don't make sense. No big campus small towns and what does TC have? 20,000 people? Royal Oak? Boulder, New Haven and Grand Rapids seem like a good group.

"This proposal came from the Administrator's staff, not the council or Mayor."

That's a good one! Lol.

The Ann Arbor City Council is a bunch of ding dongs. As a York Township resident ( Milan MI) I almost never go to downtown Ann Arbor because parking is such a fiasco. Have had several tickets over the past ten years parking at meters because one never knows for sure how long you'll be dining or shopping. The only alternative to that is to park in the parking structures but I find it much easier to simply not go downtown anymore. There is nothing there that I cannot find elsewhere.

I think it wrong for any city to use ticket writing as a revenue source. Tickets should be only be used to enforce a law so that everyone can be safe. If there are no violations there should be no tickets. The danger in letting government use tickets to generate revenue is who can you complain to, the guys in power control everything.
I have never agreed with folks who claim that the police only stop people to raise revenue but this type of action strongly suggests otherwise.

I think the city has lost sight that they are supposed to be working for the people and not against them.

I think it is time to have a citizen’s oversight board to make sure that tickets are issued fairly. This would include rates as well as tickets for various situations that seem to be unfair to the people as there are a lot of gotchas in the law that the city can use to nail you.

How about Forgiveness Tickets? Some cities with heavy visitor traffic have done this. This is from the City of Portland, Maine parking website:
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"The City has put into effect a forgiveness ticketing system. People receiving a ticket related to parking at an expired meter, overtime parking or parking in more than one space, shall have the first parking violation notice every six months January-June and July-December automatically waived by the City."
link to page: http://www.ci.portland.me.us/parking/tickets.asp#fees
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Also, unrelated to parking but related to raising revenue, see what Pittsburg, PA is proposing. Might we consider this in our little town?
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09313/1011971-53.stm

The legacy continues: Ann Arbor's version of the "Welcome Wagon" is a tow truck . . .

This is why I don't go to downtown unless I absolutely have to. Sometimes my kids and I will take the number 9 bus to go to the Hands On Museum but if I think I need my car, we just do not go.

Personally I do not find downtown Ann Arbor to be friendly to cars. It's hard to drive with all the pedestrians jaywalking. It's hard to find parking and now, if your meter runs out, you get a big old fine.

I'll continue to stay on the outskirts and avoid downtown.

4 even easier ways to avoid parking fines:

1. Live close enough to downtown that you can walk.
2. If you don't live close enough, take the bus.
3. Actually put enough money in your meter.
4. Be willing to walk 4 blocks to downtown and park for free on a side street.

I'd rather see fines increased on people who park illegally or can't use basic common sense when paying a meter than increase taxes on everyone. This is also a good way to get out-of-towners who pay nothing for their use of our crucial infrastructure to pay some of their share (but only if they do something illegal!).

The article does not mention what the rates for parking in public structures are in the "comparable" cities, though I will note from personal experience that the Ann Arbor hourly rates in the structures are extremely cheap.

As for those who claim people won't come to Ann Arbor because of parking fines I say (1) you're wrong, look at how many annoying out of towners crowd downtown everyday, especially on the weekend. And this in the middle of a huge recession. And (2) even if you are right, it'd be a good thing. Maybe downtown would get more businesses that cater to the needs of residents, and less to people on mini-vacations from West Bloomfield.

That said, it does seem like the city is doing its typical thing in trying to imitate much larger cities (Seattle, Madison, Austin) than ones such as new haven and Boulder that are ACTUALLY comparable size-wise.

Great, just great. Already too high parking fees are going up again. I avoid the downtown area because parking is so expensive and its hard to find, unless you want to use the garages. Another thing that annoys me. With the new meter system used downtown, with the parking space numbers, appears to be a double dip by the city. It appears that if a driver leaves the space before their time has run out, that time does not show when the next person parks in the same spot. Am I correct on this? If anyone knows if the new system tells you there is time on the system for the space, does it indicate that? I think parking should free. Who would be willing to sign a petition to make parking free in Michigan. Reduce tickets to fines of $5 or $10 max, and eliminate towing except in handicapped areas or for safety issues. We already pay too much in taxes.

I have another reminder not to go downtown

Fun Fact: In 2008, the city of Ann Arbor issued 107,474 parking citations. According to Horning, in a typical year, the city's parking referees hear about 10,000-11,000 appeals.

Ryan:
An interesting angle you might want to explore is how much the City pays for processing of tickets, which I understand is outsourced to an out-of-state firm. Can you look into this and let us know the details--especially how much money the City actually receives per ticket after paying the processing fee, postage, etc.? Thanks.

Unbelievable! All this angst over parking tickets. Don't get a ticket! If you do simply pay it right away and the fine is greatly reduced, A2 is one of few cities that offer this service.

The city has cheap parking in the structures and as Rusty says you don't even have to park downtown if you don't mind walking or you can take the bus or ride a bike. But, simply don't get a ticket and you have no worries.

I wonder how many who are against the parking ticket hike are against the new parking structure? The city needs more parking, too bad the new structure only replaces what they are losing.

Townie: I wrote the city about this a couple of years ago. What I heard was because of all the students from out of state the city was losing a lot of money because the students would leave without paying their back tickets. States sell their license plate info to the highest bidder so the city had no way to track down the dollars once the students left town for good.

There are only a couple of companies that can track people in all the states because they do it on a large scale so the city had to go with them in order to get paid.

If one is really interested in raising revenues it would make more sense to find ways to make parking more affordable and create more parking. More people could come downtown and purchase more goods and services. The addition of all of the "hi tech" meters and ability to generate higher fines makes the parking process more complicated and consumers would decide why bother. If there is a choice where to shop or eat I will look for places where it is easy to park and do not have to worry about getting hit with surprise (tax) fine if I am late. Looks like the malls and small towns have an advantage on this issue.

Good grief, people, direct your anger at some worthwhile thing -- get Mugabe out of Zimbabwe or stop the US torturing people or fight world hunger. Fight your enemies, not your friends.


I'm with Rusty. Raising fines is better than raising the parking rates in general -- parking meter fines are completely avoidable. AA has a lot of really cheap parking lots, so you don't have to risk it at a meter if you don't know how long you'll be.


Parking in front of a hydrant is only $25 to $50? If you doubled those fees, you could raise more money and increase public safety - that's a no brainer. And I love the idea of "cheaper if you pay more quickly" -- if you are dedicated to saving money, that's a bargain!

@rusty

It bears repeating.

4 even easier ways to avoid parking fines:

1. Live close enough to downtown that you can walk.
2. If you don't live close enough, take the bus.
3. Actually put enough money in your meter.
4. Be willing to walk 4 blocks to downtown and park for free on a side street.

How about valet only parking downtown, that way they can get the money they want up front. I aklso have an alternative, go to downtown Ypsilanti and feed their meters, they could use the revenue. They don't have as many meter hawks either.

Like Yogi Berra said, "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
I hope all the grippers do stay away. I like being around people with positive attitudes. That said I do think fines and tickets should only be used to promote safety as well as fair and efficient access, not to raise revenue. I’m a liberal and think revenue should be raised through fair progressive taxation.

This might be reasonable if there was adequate parking available in Ann Arbor. Maybe the council ought to tie all parking fine revenues to the constuction/acquisition of new parking lots. I personally avoid downtown Ann Arbor and the University Hospital because the parking is so onerous.

One minor point: the meters accept dollar coins (at least the ones I've used). So, if you use meters a lot, ask for dollar coins at the bank and you won't have to haul as many quarters around.

I used to get my hair cut once a month downtown on my way home from work. But because of the parking situation, I've switched to a barber shop on the outskirts of town (with a parking lot).

It's just too much of a hassle driving around the block 5-6 times looking for a parking spot after a long days work. or driving up to the 4th or 5th floor of a parking structure, waiting on the elevator, walking 5 blocks, ect...

I personaly just think it's alot easier to find someplace else to get my hair cut/shop.

What's the fine for parking in front of a $3500 wayfinding sign?

I am approaching my 20th anniversary of living in Ann Arbor. I have never had any issues parking, other than exceptional events like Art Fair. I have never had a parking ticket. I have never failed to find a safe, legal parking space.

I have a fool-proof method of avoiding parking fines at meters: I wear a watch.

Don't want a fine for blocking a fire hydrant? Easy, don't park there. Don't want a fine for inappropriate use of a handicap space? Easy, don't park there. Don't want a fine for over staying your meter? Easy, note what time your time will run out and then do something useful before that time occurs.

The bit about not letting people take over a previously used space that still has money in it is justified griping, though. A parking meter rents space at the curb by the minute. If someone puts money in the meter -- no matter who it is -- the space is rented for those minutes. The city shouldn't have a say in which car sits there.

Dave66, I agree with all your points but your last. I think technology now lets the city make additional $ which I'm all for. I know that every once in a while you park at a meter and walk up to it and "wow! there's still an hour left! My lucky day!". It was like the lottery every time you pulled up to the meter. They new system is different, yes. But it is better.

Ann Arbor needs to ease off on the disincentives to shopping downtown. Rather than always seeking more revenues, the city should lower its spending requirements. Of course, it is up to the citizens of Ann Arbor to put people in office who understand that priority.

Wow Dave66, great to hear you're such a perfect person with absolutly no faults.

Also great to hear that you are so lucky, that you have lived in A2 for 20 years, and "never had a problem finding a parking spot".

I however have lived in A2 for over 30 years. And I can tell you that I have numerous problems finding parking...and I think most other locals can attest to that.

One time I was meeting family for dinner at Zanzibar. I drove around the block for 20 minutes looking for a spot. I finnally gave up, and had to park at the top level of the structure on Maynard. I got to Zanzibar 20 minutes late...But it didn't matter because EVERYONE else in my party was late because nobody could find parking.

So Dave66, consider yourself to be the luckiest person in A2, since you have never had a problem finding parking.

The problem is that you spent 20 minutes circling around before going to the meter. Could drop $20 plus for dinner but not $.80 per hour for parking? Also, there's plentiful FREE parking north of Huron on State and those sidestreets. So, if you want to park for free you may need a little extra time before hand. If there were no meters, it would be even harder to find parking because no one would ever move their car!

I wasn't the one paying for dinner.

Also, you might want to consider that some people have physical limitaions that might prevent them from walking from Lawrence st. all the way to state and washington...

But I'm sure you haven't made any consideration for how those people might be affected by the parking situation.

As a resident of Ann Arbor and Traverse City, both for significant periods of time, I can say that doing a comparison between both cities won't be very helpful. Though a significant amount of retail is focused downtown in Traverse City, the population density, lack of a major university, and lack of a large scale multi-faceted downtown (TC's "downtown" is highly localized in one basically rectangular area, whereas Ann Arbor's is spread between Main St., State St. and South University) make the comparison at least to Traverse City very irrelevant.

Don't you people know you can't compare Ann Arbor to anywhere, it is one of a kind and there is nothing like it.

Also, you might want to consider that some people have physical limitaions that might prevent them from walking from Lawrence st. all the way to state and washington

That's why the state has handicapped plates and placards. (And I'm in favor of heavy penalties for people without them--or forged placards--who use handicapped spaces.)

Actually, you could have physical limitations that might prevent you from excessive walking, but still not be eligible for a handicap sticker.

I would be a perfect example...I have gout in my ankle, but I'm not so disabled that I would qualify for a handicap plate.

Fraser said,"As you can tell, this hasn't been done in five years, and it's somewhat overdue." This isn't completely true. Council increased the discounted expired meter fine from $5 to $10 on 5/16/05.

Do parking meter fees go to DDA and parking fines go to General Fund? I'll be surprised if the DDA doesn't veto this proposal.

Hey Atticus, there are 1,370 parking spaces within 1 block of your destination. Elevators and everything.

dotdash- "get Mugabe out of Zimbabwe". You're right- I'll get right on that. I have a lot influence with that situation and should have used my time more productively to deal with it.

Parking tickets effect people directly and they commented on it. In Ann Arbor why does it always have to be "if you're not out dealing with the unfairness of the world, and protesting man's inhumanity to man, then there is something wrong with you"? You can go stand in front of the post office with a sign and pump your fist when someone honks, and if people want to comment on parking fines here, that's fine too.

Marvin, you speak as if there are 1370 empty spaces within a block of Zanzibar. This is not true...most of them are occupied.

Atticus, at dinner time you should find plenty of spaces. At this very moment (4:50pm) there ar 555 spaces available. Next time you and Scout go to dinner, you should be able to find a space very easily.

It is soooo easy to avoid downtown - unless you happen to work there. The stores don't sell anything you really need and can't buy cheaper elsewhere, so why bother. It is a pleasant place to go for a walk, though. If something in a window catches your eye, you can always go home and find it online, with free shipping and no sales tax! People who shop downtown deserve what they get - overpriced merchandise, limited selection, and inconvenient, expensive, parking.

Thats ok Raise all you want.The local malls outside the city limits have free parking.So all you spineless council persons keep all you high costs.I'll take my business elsewhere.Out of Ann Arbor ,Mi

poster susan said she has a shop in the Kerrytown area. as someone who works in the area I would like to point out that there isn't a structure to park at to shop at there. The city says that the Ann Ashley structure is for the kerrytown area, which is rediculous. That leaves only metered lots or on street parking with 3 hours or less limits on parking. Parking enforcing comes by NO LESS THAN 8 times a day. Some days I have counted 14 times that they come through.

not everyone wants to ride a bike or take the bus. nor does everyone live within walking distance of downtown.

I spent some of August and September in France, Italy, Malta, Monaco, and Spain. I didn't see a single parking meter during the whole trip, which made me wonder why we need or put up with paying an additional fee to park along public streets we've already paid the city to provide. If we must however, then all that parking fee and fine revenue should go directly to additions public transportation.

Interesting: Parking in a downtown area anywhere does not add costs to the city. Indeed, it adds to the well being of the entire downtown business group(s). Further, the streets and sidewalks are paid for without the use of parking fees & fines.
To be sure, many many cities in this state and country do not have parking meters.

As a result, parking fees are clearly a revenue generating scheme. And, therefore, parking fines are also a revenue generating scheme. Thus for any person of the city administration to state the contrary is simply more lies from your "elected" officials, whose sole goal in life is to remain in office. And, the best way to remain in office is to extract as much money from other to obtain and maintain power.

The whole issue of parking is really not about parking, but about taxes without voting. When the citizens of the city finally get it, maybe they will change the situation. Until then, anyone who does not like it should simply not patronize downtown Ann Arbor.

In fact, I would be very happy to join a group which proposes to publicly boycott the city on a given day and go to a city that does not have parking meters as a group and spend our money for that day. We could keep a tallyof the entire amount spent and present this to the city as a "loss of revenue" due to their parking policies.

I added this to the "more info" section:

2008 PARKING STATS
• City tickets issued = 119,690
• City tickets paid = 107,474
• City & UM appeals heard = 10,365
• # tickets reduced = 2,265
• # of tickets voided = 4,657

Source: City of Ann Arbor

The real question is why we even HAVE a downtown. I'd much prefer all parking structures and Walmarts.