Three bodies found in Ann Arbor home gutted by fire; cause not yet known

Wouldn't this have been a good time to use "mutual aid"?? If you are tied up on other calls, it would seem like you should call upon your neighbors to at least get some fire trucks headed that way.

@not a billy: I asked the fire department about mutual aid; they said that all the city's fire trucks arrived at about the same time, which was roughly 10 minutes, and it would have taken longer for fire trucks from outside the city to get there. They said it's the first few minutes that make the biggest difference, and no other departments would be close enough to get there any faster than they did.

Mutual aid would seem an appropriate call. Isn’t Scio Township close to that location? If that’s not possible, what about the other City fire stations? If the responding fire station is out on another call, wouldn’t one of the other stations respond to the 2nd fire? Seems that would result in a much faster response than waiting for the busy fire truck to clear the 1st call.

the goverment shouldn't have gotten involved the neighbors and the home owners could have taken care of this with out all that costly goverment intervention.

Seems like the fire was well on it's way before anyone noticed.

I'm off to go check my smoke detectors.

@zero2sixty: All the city's fire trucks were sent at the same time, according to the battalion chief. Normally, closer stations would get there first, then be backed up when other trucks arrive. In this case, he said, because the trucks were on another call, all the trucks from the city arrived at the same time.

This was such a tragedy, I hope and pray the family was not at home. Everyone needs to know that with the proposed cut backs in the fire department in Ann Arbor, it will happen more frequently, response times will get even longer and make an unsafe environment for everyone. Why A2 doesn't consider planting less trees and turn out some of the expensive lighting downtown to save more cuts in the FD? Fire departments are like insurance, you hate to pay for it, but it sure comes in handy when you need it!

Unfortunately, this fire highlights the essential need for functioning smoke detectors. If anyone had been inside, that was probably their best chance for early detection and escape. We can only hope that no one was home.
The other problem with this particular fire was just locating the house, which was not certain for a few minutes. No mutual aid trucks could have arrived any earlier than Ann Arbor's.

Why are so many people "projecting" about this incident? The two most important items of information are yet to be reported: was the family killed in the fire and what was the cause of this particular fire?

Yapping about response times and advocating more money for the fire department based on spurious reasoning isn't exactly objective. Saying "this will happen more often" in reference to house fires (whether or not they involve fatalities) isn't even connected to the availability of fire fighters: the condition of the building and practices of the occupants determines the frequency of house fires in any sample population.

We have a fire fighter in our family. We are proud of him and what he does. That doesn't mean that we veer off from facts when it comes to important things like fire safety - which is a responsibility of ALL. We don't depend on our family member and his colleagues in the fire department as "insurance": we take responsibility for our own lives and safety.

@trublu: Yep, it's all our responsibilities. May as well cut all the FD. I mean, it your responsibility to keep yourself in good shape. Heart attacks are your own fault. Everyone should be a better driver too. Car accidents and pin-ins are probably your own fault too. And from what you lead us to believe, not having smoke detectors is this families own fault as well.

You must be so blessed to be so perfect that you need no help from any agency. Use a lot of windex in that glass house?

It took them 10 minutes to get there! Really unbelievable after looking up the location!! After reading the article, I assumed it was further away from town, not the middle of a densely populated
neighborhood!

What if this fire happens six months from now, near the station they plan to close? And the next closest truck is on another call? Trucks from other cities take longer than 10 minutes to arrive, and you do know that they have THEIR OWN CALLS sometimes as well. And before you say it - yes I know that is a lot of "what ifs". But having lived through a house fire, in a northern Michigan town with an all volunteer FD where it took nearly 15 minutes for the FD to arrive, I wouldn't want to take that chance. But hey I guess that is just me. I suppose it was my parents fault - according to some of you, we should have had a better garden hose.

A few details on mutual aid:

Pittsfield FD station on Ellsworth is 4.3 miles away, "10 minutes" says Google Maps; of course that's Google's estimate, not an actual estimate of the time.

Scio FD station on Zeeb is 6.1 miles away, also "10 minutes" according to Google, same caveats on accuracy of that time estimate.

Saline FD is 8.5 miles away, "18 minutes".

I am sure this is not a comprehensive list of fire stations in the area, and I don't know that list and the list of existing mutual aid agreements.

More info on mutual aid is the Washtenaw Area Mutual Aid Association, or WAMAA:

http://www.wamaa.com/welcomepage.htm

"The Washtenaw Area Mutual Aid Association currently has 23 Member Fire Departments. Our membership includes over 700 Fire Personnel. Our equipment pool includes 65 Engines, 15 Ladders, 28 Tankers, 34 Brush Trucks and 31 Rescues. We protect all of Washtenaw County as well as parts of Western Wayne, Oakland, Lenawee, Monroe, and Livingston Counties. Our Association also promotes interaction between support agencies and other Emergency Response Agencies as well. We meet monthly at various location around our coverage area. "

How could this happen? I'm wondering how old this couple was...if their son was 41, they'd be...60-80? Older to elderly anyway. I'm thinking even if they had a fire alarm, what might their mobility have been, or if maybe the son was gone with one of them, would the other be able to get him/herself out, even with warning? This is what the fire department is needed early for. Surely the 911 callers would have mentioned that the blaze was already going...shouldn't that have indicated they didn't have 10 minutes? I guess if they couldn't get there faster, they just couldn't, but that's a problem.

According to Gmaps pedometer, the home was but 2.8 miles from the fire station on Stadium at Packard that was closed due to budget cuts several years ago. How many minutes do you suppose it would have taken a truck to go that distance at 2AM in the morning?

So much for the fiction that the budget cuts would not impact fire protection.

As for TruBlu's comments, all I can say is "unbelievable" but not unexpected in these wildly selfish and anti-social times in which we live.

Would we want our Firefighers out working in Pittsfield Township all the time? This would have been 2 Saturdays in a row that AAFD relyed on Pittsfield. I am pretty sure after a while they are going to say no more.

You know, it amazes me how many "experts" write about these topics who have never faught a fire or even stepped foot in a fire station. Here's some other facts for you... 1) the surrounding communities of the city are volunteer or 'combination'. Meaning you get one or MAYBE 2 guys in the truck. 2) per the article, the city fire fighters CLEARED the other fire call in 10 minutes. Meaning, they were already on the road AND in their gear. 3) again per the article, there were sent to the wrong address.

Think before you speak people. Residents died today. It's a sad day for the residents of Ann Arbor. Facts are facts. This problem will get worse. And by the way. So what if a 'mutual aid' truck got there in 30 seconds. It takes PEOPLE to save lives. I don't care how fast you get a truck on scene. If you don't have enough people to carry out the tasks, you're just spinning your wheels waiting for more resources to show up.

I live down the street from this home. I have the utmost respect for the fire department and the very brave men and women who do this dangerous work. There is some concern, however, about the miscommunication or misunderstanding that caused the delay in response. Greenview is seconds, not minutes away, and one neighbor repeated a haunting quote from a dispatcher who said, "we don't know where Waverly and Weldon is" . This may not be accurate but this speculation will hopefully lead to a close investigation. This is right in town, not too far from Pioneer and the Stadium. Scary and very, very sad.

not a billy and zero2sixty point out a very major problem when it comes to fire and police protection in the city. They have NO idea what the city has as far as resources to rely on. Zero2sixty asks why a different station didn't respond. Do you REALLY think all 20 fire fighters came from ONE station? 20 firefighters would be the city's entire force.

Mutual aid would be nice, but there are several problems. First of all, the closest departments have very low staffing. Scio may have only one on duty firefighter for the entire township. Pittsfield may have 2 or 3 per station. None of these other firefighters were going to get there any faster, and they would not have been much good anyhow until more bodies showed up.

On the first football Saturday of this year, there was a house fire on the city's north side where a house was destroyed. When mutual aid was called for it was found that all of the other area departments were already tied up on another mutual aid call. Ann Arbor got no help. Firefighters even had citizens helping to pull lines off of trucks at one point.

Sadly, most people in Ann Arbor are simply uneducated about what kind of public safety resources there are. It is nice to be able to complain about the police and fire departmemts being lazy and greedy, but most people have no idea what is involved in the job.

Maybe Mr. Fraser can get himself a hose and a helmet and lend a hand at the next fire.

I'm the nephew of Joan and Demetri and lived in the destroyed home in the late seventies when I was a student at UofM. I'm stunned by the news as many of the neighbors are. I just wanted to comment and say thank you to all of the neighbors that as best as they could tried to notify and help my relatives. In some small way I feel connected with you through your kindness as I feel connected to Demetri, Joan and John that took me into their home when I first arrived from Greece to attend college in Ann Arbor. Thank you and may God rest your souls. --Ioannis--

Based on the information in the story, it sounds as though the home may have been completely involved before the neighbors discovered the fire, and even "instant" response by the fire department may not have made a difference in this case. My condolences to family and friends who lost loved ones in this tragedy.

Very sad story. In these hard times, this is a reminder to prioritise the police and fire departments when the scant resources are divided. These are the most basic of services. Everything else is secondary. Thoughts to the family, etc.

SMOKE ALARMS..SMOKE ALARMS..
God bless those lost.

So all of the city's trucks and personnel were at another call, looking at black smoke from a chimney, when this call came. Although the second call was seconds (not minutes) away, it took them ten or so minutes to get there. And somehow this proves it would be dangerous if there were any cuts to the fire department budget?

@DagnyJ - that is NOT what the story says AT ALL. Read it again. The truck from the closest station, which would normally respond to this call first, was at that call you speak of. That is the reason it took 10 minutes for that truck to respond. All of the cities OTHER trucks were also dispatched from further stations, all of the trucks, including the truck that was at the chimney smoke call arrived virtually at the same time. This information is all in the article if you actually read it, instead of skimming it or go by the comments, whichever you did.

Dagny, could you enlighten us as to where the article states that all city trucks and personnel were tied up at the other incident? The closest station and maybe some trucks from downtown were at the Greenview incident. They do have to load any deployed equipment back on to the trucks before they can respond to another call.

Department personnel are very aware what resources are available to them, and they are the most informed people to make the decisions necessary to save lives and protect property. The only mismanagement of resources here may be going on at City Hall, not in the department itself.

This is a tragedy and my thoughts go out to the family, friends and neighbors.

I can only wonder what the reponse time might have been if the station at Packard/Stadium was open. That truck would have responded to Greenview and possibily freed up the truck on Eisenhower or Jackson/maple to respond to this fire. As it's been said it might not have made a difference this time but will it next time? This is a dangerous gamble Mr. Fraser is very, very willing to make. His comments in the last few weeks have shown that. If he makes the proposed cuts it would shut down one of those stations and possibly another.

And doesn't city counsel want to cut 14 more fire fighters? How many more people are going to have to loose their lives until the city counsel starts supporting the BASIC needs of the community? Did they really need to spend $245,000 on a "city tree" inventory? They need to stop wasting our money and support the fire AND police departments.

I was maybe the 3rd or 4th neighbor to run over - at 3:02 a.m. (The times are on my cellphone which I had grabbed to call police because I thought the yelling was some sort of halloween shenanigans). I'm struggling with the 10 minute response time - I guess we'd have to look at the calls they logged, but it was more likely about 15 minutes after the first 911 call. To answer other posts, yes, the 911 operators were told the house was in flames and there were thought to be 3 people inside.

By 3:03 - just 5 minutes after the first 911, the house was too far gone to save anyone. Just a few minutes later, it seemed that the house next door was in danger of catching fire.

I am very sorry for the deaths of my neighbors. When you're helplessly watching a house going up in flames, and you're reasonably certain that people are inside, there's a feeling of helplessness that's hard to describe. 10 minutes or 15 minutes - it felt like an eternity.

I'd happily give up many of the niceties we enjoy in Ann Arbor - or pay more taxes - whatever it takes to have properly staffed police and fire departments.

Stopthink and 751: you'll have to forgive DagnyJ. They never saw a tax dollar to any governmental entity that couldn't be cut.

To Joan and Demetri's nephew Ioannis and the rest of the family, I am heartily sorry for your loss....
For the rest of you seemingly callous self absorbed politico whiners, shame on you for losing the important focus of this story...the lives of people that were loved ended today. I am sure they will be missed by their loved ones. Maybe instead of discussing the budget, possible cuts, this, that and whatever, you simply may want to offer up your sympathies and count your blessings.

I live less then a block from this house... This is unbelievable. I didn't hear a a thing and 3 people died and other families were at risk.

Thank you to the neighbors that called 911!

Change your smoke detector batteries!

I have a curious question... why didn't we smell the smoke? I often smell the smoke from my neighbors fireplaces ....

DJM, I think you're missing the point. Everyone is sad about the loss. Everyone is also sad at the fact that there aren't enough firefighters as it stands now to protect the residents, and the city wants to further reduce them.

These kinds of events are very unfortunate. There's no question. But making the situation WORSE won't better protect the lives of us residents. Lives were lost today. The fire department has been screaming that they are understaffed. City leaders have tricked most of us into believing that 'everything is fine'. Well, explain that to their family Mr. Fraser. The point is, we need to make things BETTER.

Misquote? I'd bet my last dollar that first quote should be "It was fully engulfed." not involved.

@DwightSchrute,
It's not a misquote. He said fully involved, which is a common term in the fire service.
Here's the definition: Fully involved: Term of size-up meaning fire, heat and smoke in a structure are so widespread that internal access must wait until fire streams can be applied.

I hesitate to "trivialize" the deaths of these folks by analyzing response and and fire department staffing from my computer keyboard across town. Reading the story above it says "When calls of the fire came in, the city's closest fire trucks were already on another call on Greenview, where black smoke from a chimney had been reported." Reading that sentence "fire trucks were..." reads plural to me as in more than one truck. The fire department web site states that standard response to a structure fire includes: "STANDARD RESPONSE TO A REPORTED STRUCTURE FIRE:
2 Engines, 1 Ladder, 1 Rescue,
1 Command Vehicle, 13 Personnel
IF there was more than one fire truck on Greenview just a couple blocks away I wonder why one of them couldn't have gone the couple blocks to Waverly while a third truck could have been enroute to the general area given the two streets are so close together.

The reason, IMHO, that the fire trucks did not leave the first scene, is because with A2 its CYA 24/7.
If something drastic had happened with the chimney smoke, someone would be writing a check to old Sam Bernstein.

So why don't you include a map-link to at least the nearest intersection, if not the actual address?

Then again, maybe they didn't leave the scene right away because, until they can rule out for certain that the original call is not a fire, they probably shouldn't just drive away. What a thought! Oh, and Craig, I like how you say you're not going to analyze the FD from "across town on a keyboard" then proceed to do just that. I read the same web site you did. Did you also notice that even with the 'typical' response to the first call, they still have engines able to respond to the second?

What an interesting day everyone would have if we were all able, on a daily basis, to arm chair quaterback YOUR job without knowing the first thing about it. These people are trained to do a job, and by all accounts, everyone of them love their jobs (more than I can say for the rest of us). And while they protect us while having to fight with the city and the city's rumor generating supervisor, they still come to help US no matter what the situation is. How motivated would you feel if you were attacked on a daily basis from the people you're trying to protect and the so called city leaders?

Try doing what I do... next time you see one of them, thank them. I know kindness seems to have fallen by the wasteside for most of you. Wonder how cricital you'd be when you're in trouble and you have to dial 911...

Walk in their boots before you pretend to know what they do. I have no desire to do it, so I'm thankful for them. City council... not so much.

10 minutes for the first truck to arrive?! My dad was a firefighter for 25 years and both of my sons are volunteer firefighters. If I remember right, acceptable response time is closer to 2-3 minutes with a full time fire department. When the City made cuts to AAFD a few years back, they were warned that longer response times would eventually lead to deaths...and now Roger Fraser wants to make more cuts. When Fraser completes his firefighter training and has to respond without backup, maybe he'll think twice about some of his recent comments on staffing.

As a township resident, I also take issue with having to routinely send our firefighters to cover the City when the City seldom responds to the townships...and the City wants to look into consolidating with the townships? Want to guess who will come out on the short end of the stick with an arrangement like that?!

"Oh, and Craig, I like how you say you're not going to analyze the FD from "across town on a keyboard" then proceed to do just that."

I said "I hesitate to..." which is different than "I will not..." A rather clumsy way of acknowledging the most important part of the tragedy, that people died. But as a citizen of Ann Arbor I think a discussion of a 10 minute response is reasonable, although unfortunate under these circumstances.

I truly hope that this does not happen again. Three people are dead and nothing can change this now. And while we can all can try to second guess how all this happened. They are still dead. The facts are this: we pay taxes for services such as police, fire, and even our trash to be picked up. No service is perfect and there is problems with all of them. But (now listen up Fraser, Mayor and Council) you must know when enough is enough! How much can you cut core services (police and Fire)? One station has already been closed and don't think for one minute that this has not affected the outcome of someones life who lived in that area when they needed help but had to wait. And now you want to cut 14 more firefighters and what close 1 or 2 more stations? I ask you council if your reading this, what station do you want to close? If you must close a fire station, I hope you choose the fire station closest to your house that is there to protect you and your family. Thats what you want right? It does not matter how many stations we have or how many firefighters we have or how long it takes for them to get there - right? I hope that you our elected officials - city council will finally open your eyes and see what you are doing to the safety of all of us who live or work in the city.

Interestingly, most of the comments here are about the response time of the firefighters. It's pretty clear that by the time the fire was discovered, it was too late for the occupants to be rescued. Most home fires start slowly and generate a lot of smoke before they begin to spread. Functioning smoke detectors are much more important then fire department response time when it comes to alerting the occupants early in the fire when it may still be possible to escape. New homes today require multiple smoke detectors in sleeping areas and on all levels including the basement. Working detectors would probably have saved lives in this fire. I believe that most residential fire deaths are caused by smoke rather than the actual fire itself. Faster response by the fire department probably would not have made any difference in this case because the fire was too advanced.

Bruce, you are probably right - the family had most likely already died from smoke by the time the fire was noticed by neighbors. But I am not convinced the fire dept. got there in 10 minutes (wish I'd had the presence of mind to look at the time when they did finally get there). I think it was closer to 15 minutes. By that time, the home next door was in danger of catching on fire. It was an urgent situation that demanded an urgent response.
This is NOT a criticism of our Fire Department - that's NOT why all the concern about response time - the criticism I have is of any administrative decisions to cut back on fire and/or police services - both past decisions and now this talk of cutting 14 jobs. I think our emergency response people are heroes, and they deserve to be part of fully-staffed and well-funded police and fire and rescue departments. I'd rather see layoffs in city administration (do we really need that many poor decision-makers) and hiring in emergency services.

I agree with the other residents that city council needs to wake up, along with Roger Fraser. But Fraser is the one making these cuts. Does anyone here really think complaining about it on this 'blog' will really have any impact? Get involved with your city! Go to a city council meeting. Your eyes will be opened to this and a lot of other issues in this city. Don't like it? Make a change, or stop complaining. I wish more people would speak up (NOT on a keyboard).

I know there was some website that the FD put up. It was posted in an article. Need to find that article and refer to it.

This makes me glad I don't live in Ann Arbor.

In reading all the comments I would hope that every single person who is a resident of Ann Arbor knows that all they need to do is make a phone call, show up @ a city council meeting, and cast a different vote to make a change. The Fire Dept needs the support of the people they protect. I really liked the comments of the person who said "it takes a lot to help the people who complain about you.... " A lesser known secret about the closing of another fire station is that your insurance provider is chomping at the bit and will gladly raise your homeowners insurance because you now live "farther" from a working fire station. No kidding ask your provider. The city owes it to the residents to provide the best "basic" emergency service. Those FD folks are highly trained in all differnt types of rescue-they can put out fires, rescue from a car wreck, collapsed building, collapsed trench, hazmat, and so on....but I guess you don't know what you got till it is gone!

It is truly tragic.I don't know what else to ad. R---I----P

Loannis - I was a friend of John's and if I can help, please let me know. I gave my contact info to Pete at the stereo shop where John spent some time. Bob V