ChuckL

Thu, Aug 5, 2010 : 12:51 p.m.

KJMClark, Your analysis is dead wrong. The solution is not more enforcement since increased enforcement of 85% percentile drivers has no deterring affect. Your main flaw is the wrong assumption that drivers determine their speed by looking at speed limit signs and assuming they can go 5-10 MPH faster without getting stopped. Using this logic, if the speed limit is raised, drivers will drive faster; this is in opposition to actual experience. What actually happens when speed limits are raised is that the number of people complying with the posted speed limit increases substantially. This is so, since most drivers do not pay attention to the posted speed limit most of the time because they are too busy paying attention to driving conditions (if they are driving alert.) Drivers will adjust their speed to take into account bikes, pedestrians and weather conditions. More enforcement is usually a waste of time & money and will only provide a false sense of security. But I guess some people prefer a false sense of security to actual science.

KJMClark

Thu, Aug 5, 2010 : 7:53 a.m.

The thing Mr. Walker and his group always fail to mention is that the state guidelines for setting speeds calls for other considerations besides the 85th percentile speed. First, they're supposed to look at all traffic, not just motorists, so instead of rejecting bicyclists as invalid data, the speed count is supposed to count the bicyclist's speed in the data. Also, the study is supposed to look at adjacent land uses, curb cuts, crosswalks, etc. It's not just speeders who are supposed to set the speeds. WRT to bicyclists - yes, we all know that there are bicyclists who either slow at a light and then go through when it's clear, or stop at the light and then go when it's clear. But let's not forget that not all cyclists do that. Please don't paint us cyclists who stop and wait at traffic lights with that brush. Just as not all motorists speed, tailgate, stop in crosswalks, pass cyclists dangerously, etc.; not all cyclists treat traffic lights as stop signs or yields. The solution in both cases is more police enforcement. My yelling at fellow cyclists who go through a light has no effect at all.

gpg

Wed, Aug 4, 2010 : 1:25 p.m.

Almost been hit by vehicles running red lights while driving in my car. Almost been hit by vehicles running red lights or semi-pausing then turning right on red while riding my motorcycle. Almost hit bicycles that were running red lights while driving either. Almost been hit while driving either from drivers who can not seem to understand that they have to pay attention to their driving, not the radio - phone - food - friend - sites - etc. Common sense is something cameras and $1000 tickets will not cure.

Ryan D

Wed, Aug 4, 2010 : 8:33 a.m.

The lights in this town are frustrating. Except for 5th and Division, they turn green for very short periods of time, quickly cycle through yellow, and then turn red -- shortly before an approaching car gets to the intersection! This forces the driver to slam on the breaks even when going under the speed limit or go though the light. Then repeat the process again light after light.

Jim Walker

Tue, Aug 3, 2010 : 4:45 p.m.

After reading the article a second time, please note that our average % of RLR crashes to all crashes is VERY LOW at 3.4%. In the first table, we are third lowest, a bit higher than a 2.9% and a 3.3%. In the second table, which is by far the more important, we are WAY behind the danger "leader" at 9.4% and the lowest in the "top ten" in this listing of % of RLR crashes is 4.7%. We are about 28% better (safer) than the number ten city for the rate of RLR crashes versus all crashes. Our rate is over two and a half times better than the "leader". Ann Arbor's principal problem in traffic safety and its enforcement is posted speed limits that are set artificially low and not in accordance with state law, and set well below the normal traffic flow speeds on so many of our main streets. This is the issue we need to work on first, if safety and smooth traffic flow are the real goals. Resetting most main road speed limits to the 85th percentile speed of free flowing traffic under good conditions would maximize safety, improve smooth traffic flow, and redirect our enforcement resources versus dangerous drivers, not versus technical violators of under posted limits. Regards, James C. Walker, National Motorists Association

Jim Walker

Tue, Aug 3, 2010 : 4:13 p.m.

OOPS, typo. Our website is www.motorists.org and it has a LOT of data about engineering traffic lights for the greatest safety, NOT using red light cameras which are not very effective. James C. Walker

48104

Tue, Aug 3, 2010 : 4:11 p.m.

I seriously doubt it was a hippy driving the Audi two-seater that wanted ME to run a red so he could run it after me. Dude was waving his arms and making faces so I could see how much he was suffering having to WAIT at the light, after he honked at me to go through.

Jim Walker

Tue, Aug 3, 2010 : 4:11 p.m.

As was mentioned earlier, it is correct that red light cameras (and speed cameras) are illegal in Michigan, and hopefully will always be illegal. The temptation to use cameras for revenue is too great. If a city has an unusually high rate of red light violations and/or crashes at intersections with lights, the answers to fix those problems are almost always found in simple engineering corrections. As mentioned earlier, the key item is to time the yellow interval for the ACTUAL 85th percentile speed of approaching traffic. From a safety point of view, the posted speed limit is utterly irrelevant to timing the yellow and all-red intervals for the light, if safety is the real goal. Other simple engineering items that can often help fix high red light violation rates are using correct size lenses (usually larger for faster approaches), using backing plates on east-west roads to reduce glare intrusion, keeping lane lines painted clearly, using warning flashers ahead of light with very fast approaches or where the light is over a hill, timing lights for the smoothest traffic flow, using sensors for demand changes (done well in many places in Ann Arbor), and other engineering corrections. More enforcement is almost never the answer to red light violations or high rates of intersection crashes, because we don't have the resources to watch every intersection with a traffic light all the time, and we will never have those resources. Regards, James C. Walker, Member - National Motorists Association www.motorists.ort

LAEL

Tue, Aug 3, 2010 : 9:40 a.m.

And then there are the people who slow down and practically stop at a GREEN light. The first time I saw that at Eisenhower and Ann Arbor-Saline road intersection I thought I had better get my eyes checked, but I've seen it a number of times since. One time I had the misfortune to be behind such a person, and they almost stopped at the light and then accelerated just in time to make it through the end of green/yellow cycle, leaving me and the backup of cars behind me to get stuck at the red light. Has anyone else seen this?

krc

Tue, Aug 3, 2010 : 7:58 a.m.

Andy Jacobs: Absolutely true! And well said! If I am behind someone driving way under the speed limit and am able to pass them, I will glance over, and sure enough, it's one or the other. I was 2 cars back from someone who was so incompetent entering 23 south from the Plymouth Rd on ramp. brakes on, brakes off. Brakes on, brakes off and when we reached the end of the ramp (which is a long one)she actually stopped, seemingly confused. When I passed her, she had her face as close to the windshield as it could get without actually having her chin on the steering wheel. There should be a road test every 4 years for everyone. (and ina minute or so, passed a texter! 45 mph, right wheels over the line, phone up to her face. I thought too late I probably could have called 911 and reported make, model and plate number without her even noticing.) SonnyDog: ALL the not turn on red signs should be posted on the light poles or supports across the intersection, not on the passenger side where you aren't sure if you saw one or not. Also, ifthere is a light with a RED sign on top, you cannot turn when it is red. I called downtown to find out about this, since there is one at the exit of my complex.

Peregrine

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 8:24 p.m.

Do you know the Michigan law surrounding yellow lights? 1) If you think you're legal as long as you enter the intersection on a yellow light raise your left hand. 2) If you think you're legal as long as you enter the intersection on a yellow light and you did not accelerate in order to make the yellow, raise your right hand. If you raised either hand, you're wrong! In Michigan the law states that if you can safely stop when the light turns yellow you are obligated to do so. If you don't believe me, read the law, MCL 257.612, specifically section 1b. It's also explained on the Michigan State Police's Traffic Laws FAQs. Please drive safely.

Soothslayer

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 8:18 p.m.

9 times out of 10 dangerous traffic violations and resulting accidents I witness is with new drivers, well new to America anyway or VERY experiecned drivers at the stage where everything seems new every day.

ChuckL

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 6:02 p.m.

Folks, the solution to Red Light running is not more aggressive enforcement! Changing the timing of yellow lights and the green light timing to maximize traffic flow during rush hour should do the trick.

StrongFire

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 4:20 p.m.

How are the two tables different? The column headings seem to be the same.

John of Saline

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 3:15 p.m.

I'd only support red-light cameras if: --The yellow light timings are long enough (they have caught municipalities shortening the times, which is a huge safety issue, just to raise ticket counts). --If there is discretion beyond the machine. The machine should record video continuously, then snip out segments as needed for tickets. The segment should start several seconds before the alleged violation and last five seconds or so after the car would have cleared the intersection, all things being normal. That way, someone at Ann Arbor city offices (assuming they're honest) could send a warning or ignore someone who "just missed" a yellow light, while sparing the expensive tickets for the truly dangerous (those who blow "dead-red" lights long after it's changed). Also, you'd have some objective video of accidents and for court challenges. Still images of a red light when the car's crossing the line do not tell the whole story. I've seen a lot of red-light running in Ann Arbor. It's most common at rush hour; I've seen FOUR cars turn left on red in a row at the Fuller intersection near the hospital! I have also seen a fair number of people turn left immediately upon a green light, ignoring the opposing traffic they're supposed to wait for. Percentage-wise, though, the worst red-light runners are the bikes. I find it remarkable when I see one stop at a light; that's how common it is for them to ignore them! My favorite red-light incident was due to an idiot behind me in a small car who flipped me off for stopping at a light. At the next light I felt a jolt. I looked in the rear-view mirror and saw his face in a panic. Apparently, he had run up behind me, intending to stop JUST short to intimidate. I wasn't looking as he did his thing and stopped just AFTER staving in his front bumper on my trailer hitch! I took no damage. He deserved the $100s of damage he took!

Maple

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 2:59 p.m.

Hmm, I have lived here for about 6 months now and I can say that it seems to me like this is an area in municipal denial about the size of the population and the amount of traffic. The traffic flow here is just awful and green lights are frequently not long enough to let enough traffic through-- there are several places in town where I often have to wait through the same red light twice. So I wonder if it's not that people here are more selfish and therefore run more red lights for that reason, but it may be that there needs to be some re-configuration of the way traffic is dealt with to adequately address congestion issues.

drpepper

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 2:37 p.m.

This brings back something that happened a few years ago...but still gets me going when I think of it. I saw an AA police car use his lights/siren to go through the red lights near Arborland and Carpenter, and I jokingly said he must be in a hurry to the donut shop. He stopped using the lights once he entered Ypsi and sure enough, went into Dom's donuts! I really wanted to go in and ask if there was an emergency since he had to use his lights/sirens to get there but decided against it. So, if our police abuse this power, what kind of example are they setting for the rest of us?

sirotan

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 1:15 p.m.

@Edward Vielmetti I definitely agree with that, but (un)fortunately I live mere blocks from the Washtenaw/Carpenter intersection and sometimes I cannot avoid it. :/

SonnyDog09

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 1:09 p.m.

I see people running red lights a lot in A2, however, it is not nearly as prevalent as the red light running that I see in Detroit. I see drivers on Packard run the red light at Fernwood all the time. I stopped trying to make the left turn from Fernwood onto Packard at that light after nearly being clobbered there once too often. I changed my route to avoid that intersection. Drivers on Turnberry make left turns on the red light at the intersection on Packard, as well. I don't know why drivers think that it is legal to make a left turn on red at that intersection. It is also not unusual to see drivers on Packard blow through the red light at Turnberry. A2 also has a significant number of intersections that are marked "No Right Turn on Red." Some of those signs are impossible to see when you are stopped at the light. Making a right turn on the red light is technically "running a red." I have had impatient drivers honking behind me while I sit at such a light waiting for it to turn green. It is truly sad that we have to have a Stop on Red week, like it is some sort of special occasion to actually stop at a red light.

sirotan

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 1:02 p.m.

@Edward Vielmetti Thanks for the link, its good to see I'm not crazy and there are other people that feel the same way. I'm from Grand Rapids originally so its not so much that I've never experienced Michigan traffic. But I have never been to (or, noticed) any other town with no blinking red left turn lights. I love living in Ann Arbor but driving around in it, especially on Washtenaw Ave. anytime near rush hour, gives me some major road rage.

Commoncents

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 12:51 p.m.

One other thing I can't understand: Eric Bombery, a transportation planner with the Washtenaw Area Transportation Study should be held accountable in this article. Eric Bombery should be interviewed and he should present EVIDENCE why Ann Arbor traffic lights are optimized. Eric Bombery should also have to show benchmark data from other cities and compare Ann Arbor's system to them. There is always room for improvement, especially when it takes 20mins to go from downtown ann arbor to 94... and every light on main street turns red and green at the same time.. The job of the press is to be the watchdog and hold those in power accountable by asking for factual data with benchmarks. The rest of us have jobs and lives in addition to trying to sort out all of the wasteful, lazy thinking done by those in power of governments

sirotan

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 12:41 p.m.

While we're talking about red lights here maybe someone can tell me why Ann Arbor has no blinking red left-turn lights? I just don't really see the benefit to having to sit at a red left turn light when there is no oncoming traffic. I know the Carpender Rd.-Michigan Ave. intersection has a blinking YELLOW left turn arrow, which always makes me have to think about it since I've never seen those anywhere else, ever. But no blinking red left turn lights. Very frustrating.

djm12652

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 12:28 p.m.

As a downtown resident I walk to work and I can pretty much tell the out of towners from the townies...in A2 the law must be that if you are a half block from a light when it turns yellow, you must continue on from the mid block point to go thru the intersection no matter what color it is...I used to start walking when the pedestrian sign said it was okay...now, I wait for the cars to come to a complete stop...and lest we forget the number of cyclists [helmets for safety sake] that blow through red lights having to swerve around pedestrians. But the reality of the situation is that in our fair Emerald City, people are entitled to run red lights if they choose to! We are not the average city...why we're above average...

lisasimpson

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 12:17 p.m.

It's not just hippies, I was hit by a drunk University of Michigan professor who ran a red light. Happened directly in front of the A2 police station, as a matter of fact. She hit me and then tried to flee the scene by going the wrong way down Fifth Avenue, then parked a block away and ran down the street and tried to hit me. I was able to hide behind some passersby, thankfully. She tried to take her anger out on me, even contesting the suit I filed against her to pay for my medications and doctor visit. Probably the scariest thing ever is to look over as you are crossing through an intersection and make eye contact with the person who is pummeling you at 40 miles an hour.

Hunterjim

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 12:15 p.m.

More enforcement! We do not want the traffic cams...Maryland has them and they may reduce the number of redlight runners, they signficantly increased the rear-end accidents caused by a cars breaking suddenly to avoid a potential cam-ticket. Driver education needs to improve. With computer aided signals, it can be difficult for the traffic officers to tell if someone actually runs the light. Pay attention!

Ignatz

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 12:09 p.m.

@GoblueBeatOSU: Perhaps you never saw the episode where Gomer Pyle made a citizen's arrest on Barney Fife. That might work only in Mayberry, though.

GoblueBeatOSU

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:58 a.m.

How many of these were caused by AA Cops running the red lights. I don't worry about the average Joe any more, I worry about the AA cops not paying attention. Twice in the last six months or so I've had AA Cops drive right through a red light while I'm crossing a downtown street with the "walk" sign on. The cops didn't have their lights or siren on. They just drove slowing through the intersection. One was busy taking to his buddy sitting in the seat next to him. I have no clue what the other one was doing. When I yelled "excuse me" at him he just looks up and keeps going. He looked like a lost puppy. So that brings up a good question. Can I issue a ticket to an AA Cop who runs a red light with me in the cross walk???...How do I do that???

Ignatz

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:48 a.m.

I don't like cameras being used to spy on the populus. Starting with red light cams is far too slippery a slope to start down. Want to have folks stop going through red lights and speeding so much? Put more police on wheels traveling around the streets. Only a real idiot would run a light or speed when they see police. I'd like to point out that in order for them to be seen, they can't hide exposing just a radar gun. Punishing is one thing, preventing is another and the best.

Craig Lounsbury

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:46 a.m.

I believe red light traffic cameras are illegal in Michigan. This was ruled on by attorney general Mike Cox. http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/15/1582.asp

DBH

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:44 a.m.

This information would be more meaningful if it were normalized in some way, e.g., RLR per capita, or per registered driver, etc.

Lokalisierung

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:30 a.m.

"My reasoning is that if you can afford to drive you can afford a $1000 fine for speeding," I don't know where the "reasoning" part comes into your post.

Commoncents

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:30 a.m.

I believe this is due to all of the hippies. You see, they hypermile in their Prius's and people behind them are stuck trying to gauge whether they will be able to make the green/yellow light or not. This happened to me Saturday afternoon on the corner of Jackson and Stadium. This hippy was actually in a subaru (another very common hippy mobile) but he was eating Taco Bell on top of the hypermiling (go figure, eh?) I couldn't even get his attention as I pulled up along side him as his face was buried in a chalupa and his eyes fixated on the fuel gauge.

Lisa

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:27 a.m.

So even though we, in AA, think we are above average in intelligence and compassion, the reality is that we are dumb and inconsiderate. Look folks, we are driving deadly weapons. Wake up, pay attention, and give the lives of others a thought. If everyone can do that, we won't need the red light cameras (or anything else in that ilk).

Mick52

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:20 a.m.

Good post a2grateful, I was thinking the same. I have been against the speeding camera/ticketer too, but I am frustrated with the people who exceed limits, run lights, etc. So put em up and develop another source of funding. And to make our state extra safe and prosperous, lets ramp up the fines on these violations. I suggest $1000 fine for going more than 10 MPH over the speed limit on the highway. Several hundred for the red light. My reasoning is that if you can afford to drive you can afford a $1000 fine for speeding, which is dangerous and ruining the atmosphere and melting the icecaps. And if you think you can't afford a thousand, then slow the heck down. Great source of funding. I would allow a registered owner to get out of a camera ticket if they named, the son, daughter, spouse, friend, relative, etc who borrowed the car.

Lokalisierung

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:19 a.m.

"Install some red light traffic cams and wait for traffic ticket moaning... However, that's better than car crash injury moaning..." And then we'd have too many police and could let some go....then we'd have to hear your moaning about that.

Brad

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 11:14 a.m.

The city might also consider an upgrade to our crummy traffic light system. Way too much unnecessary waiting.

a2grateful

Mon, Aug 2, 2010 : 10:48 a.m.

Ann Arbor make another top 10 list! Install some red light traffic cams and wait for traffic ticket moaning... However, that's better than car crash injury moaning... http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/rlr.html