Ricebrnr

Fri, Oct 1, 2010 : 11:23 a.m.

" The man that killed my friend got life but that doesn't bring my friend back from the grave. " No but the point is he's not out killing or victimizing any more decent people either is he?

Milton Shift

Fri, Oct 1, 2010 : 10:52 a.m.

@Joe Citizen: Helping criminals get their life back together was never policy. The difference between the 70s and the 80s was that with the Reagan Revolution came the Drug War, and hence mass incarceration. The reason why the recidivism rate is so high is because of attitudes like yours. With a mark on your record you can't get a job even if you want one and it's even harder to find an apartment. You end up living in some ghetto dump apartment complex that doesn't bother to do background checks, with no one but (surprise) other offenders. So, we pile all these offenders together and deprive them of legitimate income and treat them like scum, and wow, shocking - that leads to crime. Thank you for the bleeding heart comment, but the world outside of the teabag is not so childishly simple. I am a pragmatist and a scientist and never have and never will vote Democratic, Green, or for any Social Democratic party. I disagree with them on far too many points. @djm12652: Bulglaries, B&E, purse snatchings, etc. are classified as violent crimes. When I say nonviolent drug offenders, I mean people locked up for drug possession. No victim. Capitalism may work for you (or you believe it soon will) but it doesn't for the other 6 billion people on this planet. It's not sustainable and not democratic in any way - we spend most of our lives working and the economy, our working world, is ruled by the dictatorship of a handful of bankers and major shareholders. We become increasingly productive with every passing year, and yet our compensation falls while our hours grow due to the Sit-On-Butt class (the financial elite) that appropriate more and more of the fruits of our labor. If there's anything we can't afford, it's not welfare for the poor (most people on food stamps only get $10-15 a month), it's welfare for the rich. The government spends incredible sums on the rich - the military budget (who do you think gets the arms contracts, mineral rights, construction contracts), corporate subsidies, tax breaks etc., while spending, proportionately, almost nothing on anyone else. Most of us pay a higher tax rate than billionaires as well. Example: Warren Buffet pays 17% on his income while his secretary pays around 35%. Anyway, as related to the topic on hand, capitalism leads to the tragedy of the commons, where, for example... all the employers won't hire someone with a record because it's in their best interest, but in the end everyone pays for it because it gives people no legitimate income and drives them to reoffend. And poverty tracks closely with crime rates. Think about that for a while. The economy is the most fundamental force defining our society. @stevek: If that was intended to be funny, it wasn't. And those jobs "created" come from tax money, and create nothing of value, so no, it would not be a form of economic stimulus. It's money/labor thrown down a hole. @ezbngreen: No. @paroleeplanet: Sounds like you should apply for a government job in North Korea. @Bogie: If you'd read anything I've written you'd see that severity of punishment is not an effective deterrent for crime. Prisons in the United States are no joke. Why do you think so many people will shoot at cops or get into wildly dangerous chases trying to evade capture? The horrible conditions are common knowledge - it's unbelievable I'm having to comment on it. "Drop the soap" jokes anyone? @everyone: I'm not saying to take a murderer and give them an axe and a puppy. I'm saying if we want to prevent these problems we need to take PREVENTATIVE ACTION. Shooting, gassing, or otherwise tormenting people is not only morally revolting but is also NOT preventative action. The man that killed my friend got life but that doesn't bring my friend back from the grave. We only react when it's too late. Most of you talk hard - which is easy - but apparently don't care at all about actually reducing crime, since all suggestions to nip problems in the bud and divert offenders onto a new path are laughed at and ridiculed as being the equivalent of giving a killer a hug. Perhaps some of you should actually work with offenders (as I have), realize that they are actually human (as I have), and watch the amazing things that can happen when someone isn't sh*t on: they might just find a new path in life (as I have seen).

Milton Shift

Fri, Oct 1, 2010 : 10:10 a.m.

The home invasion caught me by complete surprise and my gun was in a drawer, seconds away but still too far. My friend wouldn't have been saved by a gun either as he was caught with his guard down as well. A lot of crimes are stopped by attentive people with guns (half my family has concealed carry permits) but it can't stop them all. Even a marine can get ambushed. Your study found that 56% wouldn't attack an armed victim, which is certainly an improvement - but that means 44% are so crazy that they would attack an armed victim. That still leaves us with a big problem. I completely agree that responsible gun ownership is a good thing and I strongly encourage it, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problems that lead to crime. If we are to make a truly lasting and significant impact we need to do a lot more.

Ricebrnr

Thu, Sep 30, 2010 : 9:21 p.m.

Milt I admire your ability to stand on your principles even in the face of all of your misfortune. That being said, I'm armed always and have not had any such problems. Wierd I must be charmed or something...my firnds too...

Milton Shift

Thu, Sep 30, 2010 : 8:54 p.m.

I don't have time to respond to all this, but Ricebrnr is right: I have been burglarized, subjected to an armed home invasion, and my oldest friend was shot and killed in a robbery homicide last year.

Bogie

Thu, Sep 30, 2010 : 4:59 p.m.

Hey Milt. I think that if we got back to the "good ol days" of hard labor. I don't think those inmates would have the energy to do those brutal things to each other. BRING BACK THE CHAIN GANGS!

Ricebrnr

Thu, Sep 30, 2010 : 2:57 p.m.

No new ideas necessary, just logical and reasonable old ones not fettered by wild emotions. See Kennesaw, GA for example. ft.com/cms/s/2/5c1b6a72-c5eb-11df-b53e-00144feab49a.html And read this. amazon.com/Armed-Considered-Dangerous-Firearms-Institutions/dp/0202305422 "Fifty-six percent of the prisoners said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Seventy-four percent agreed with the statement that "One reason burglars avoid houses where people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime." Thirty-nine percent of the felons had personally decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun, and eight percent said the experience had occurred "many times." Criminals in states with higher civilian gun ownership rates worried the most about armed victims."

paroleeplanet

Thu, Sep 30, 2010 : 2:41 p.m.

I think that they should do away with the MPRI program, even though A2's MPRI has an astounding rate of sucess, we don't need those do-gooders getting in the way locking these animals up. We need to open all those prisons that were shuttered recently and fill them back up. We can just cut the funding for schools to pay for it, and we don't really need to fix the roads, so we can use that money too. Any other ideas on how to fight this war on crime?

Ricebrnr

Thu, Sep 30, 2010 : 1:53 p.m.

@ Milton Swift: mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2010/08/other_great_lakes_states_have.html "KALAMAZOO There is a perception that Michigan prisons are full of low-level criminals whose release would reduce both overcrowding and state budget constraints, but the reality is, it takes a lot to get sent to prison, a local prosecutor said." Citizens need to know that people in Michigan get there (to prison) because of high-severity crime, he said. Its not low-level property crime. And its rarely because theyre not paying child support. At least in Michigan, so much for "the majority are nonviolent so I fail to see what huge threat they pose to society anyway", eh?

Ricebrnr

Thu, Sep 30, 2010 : 1:47 p.m.

@mg0blue Per Milton Swift in another thread: "I lost $2000 to a burglary a year ago and I didn't get a press release and a nice investigation." Not sure where this took place but it seems that he does stand on his principles even when he was victimized himself...as misguided as we believe his principles to be.

mg0blue

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 8:07 p.m.

For some odd reason I feel that Milton's view on "non-violent offenders" being locked up would change greatly if he had his house broken into while he was gone and had all of his possessions stolen.

ezbngreen

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 7:20 p.m.

My guess is another fine example of a MPRI graduate going to work on honing his skills for his Phd in thieving.

djm12652

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 3:18 p.m.

Oh boo hoo for criminals...non victim drug related crimes? Seriously? Do you think the majority of crackheads, methheads or heroin addicts work 40 hours a week [with maybe a little OT] to pay for their habits? Or perhaps there is a chance these druggies [non-violent, of course-smirk inserted here] go about with purse snatchings, B&E's, car thefts, etc. to fund their fix? Capitalism? Don't blame capitalism for crime...seriously, give credit where credit is due...most criminals are criminals because, unlike capitalists, they don't want to earn what they desire in life...they would rather take it from that has acquired [thru hard work] what they want. It's kinda like a government program such as welfare...and it's the people [those of us that work to support our families] that pay for it.

Joe Citizen

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 2:50 p.m.

Shift, reforming offenders went out in the 70s after several failed decades. Now people are locked up to keep them away from the free people who haven't gambled their freedom on a laptop or a joint. It's only a matter of time before they are released to reoffend. You read AA.com and know how many new crimes are committed by people on probation or parole. Plenty of smart folks have thought this one through, Shifty, and tried different methods and the conclusion is that most offenders will reoffend until they are locked up again or grow too old to continue. I don't care that punishment doesn't deter crime. I just know that while they are locked up they won't be committing any more crimes against the noncriminals. Now I wait for additional bleeding heart garbage about who's fault it all is and how it isn't fair.

Milton Shift

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 2:08 p.m.

Fear of severe punishment has little effect on the behavior of offenders. They either believe they can get away with it ("I won't get caught this time!"), or are so crazy or have lost hope so completely that they don't even care. There's some similarity to the mindset of gambling here. We all know it's a losing game, and yet the lottery tickets keep selling like crazy. As the odds for a lottery win get slimmer, the jackpot grows - which is the exact same concept behind most criminal activities. The harsher the drug laws etc., namely, the slimmer your odds, the higher the payoff. Everyone likes to believe they're lucky. The evidence: the incarceration rate has risen meteorically since the "Reagan Revolution" and yet we still have crime. The objective conclusion (namely, the only reasonable one) is that severe punishment is a poor deterrent, and has failed as a strategy for reducing crime. Trying the same thing over and over while expecting different results each time is the definition of madness.

Milton Shift

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 1:57 p.m.

Joe Citizen: The drug issue is very relevant to a discussion on the prison population. I don't suppose the reason someone is in prison influences your view on whether they belong there? The majority of people in prison are NOT there for rape, torture, or murder, they are there for nonviolent drug offenses where there is no victim to take the witness stand. We have all spent time with an offender. We all know offenders whether we believe it or not - they are everywhere. Over 90% of black males and 40-50% of white males end up in jail at some point in their lives. You probably even have a felon you call a friend. You wouldn't know it though because no one is going to "come out" about their criminal history to a War on Crime zealot. And I don't blame America, I blame capitalism and the general nastiness and madness it brings. It has had a particularly poignant effect here in the US (arguably due to the reactionary deregulation movement of many names, the latest being "Tea Party") and hence things are overall worse. On a lighter note: sadly, not everyone gets a puppy in Europe, but we Americans - we drill baby drill and get ourselves an oil spill with tar, feathers, and dead fish for all.

Ricebrnr

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 1:39 p.m.

"Prisoner's rights organizations are important - the United States has 4% of the world's population and yet 25% of the world's prisoners. Millions of people are subjected to incarceration every year in the United States; would you like the rape, malnutrition and torture of millions to be what we're known for?" If prisons are so scary then why doesn't prison time dissuade more criminals? Seems to me your argument falls flat on the face of it as clearly prisons aren't scary enough.

Joe Citizen

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 1:25 p.m.

@Milton Shift Funny how the topic was changed to kids drugs... So if these prisoners are mostly nonviolent why are they Raping, Torturing, and stealing each others food (malnutrition). The last part was a joke. I think people like you need to spend some time with American prisoners before you chastise America for protecting it's nonviolent public. I smell an America hater. "Why... in other, better, countries they don't lock anyone up and no one needs prescription drugs ever and everyone gets a puppy." I'd ask you to volunteer to live in a prison with these "great" "unfortunate people" for a week and see if it changes your mind. Somehow I'm sure you'd find a way to blame America for anything that happened that week.

smokeblwr

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 1:24 p.m.

How about legalize drugs and all manners of guns for everyone?!?!! That would make for some interesting stories in the Crime section and solve some contentious debates.

mg0blue

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 1:15 p.m.

@Milton, what about all of the countries where crime simply runs rampant or where the members of society simply kill people accused of crimes without any due process or incarceration? Just because we have a higher incarceration rate does not mean that we have more crime per capita, it just shows that we have a well established legal system that, well, sometimes works. I don't know about you, but I definately wouldn't want to be dropped in the middle of Mexico, or anywhere in the Middle East. Just saying.

Milton Shift

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 12:42 p.m.

Yes, they are prescribing it much less nowadays, as they're aware of the hypocritical treatment of illicit meth and legal Desoxyn. They know it's hard to take them seriously in light of the dual nature of that substance: the most destructive drug ever, and a harmless way for bored housewives to lose weight and feel chipper. So, instead, they are pushing doctors to prescribe Adderall instead, which has nearly identical effects, but a different name. Amphetamine vs methamphetamine. And so we continue to shovel amphetamines down our children's throats by the bucketload (real healthy) as we scream about the horror of stimulant use. Doesn't make much sense.

boom

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 12:36 p.m.

Will Ann Arbor make the SNL News two weeks in a row?

cinnabar7071

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 12:25 p.m.

Milton your #'s make me wonder if other countrys have more death sentences, or just lock up less people.

Milton Shift

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 12:23 p.m.

No, I am suggesting that rape, malnourishment and torture are a regular occurrence in US prisons and that Americans are subjected to it by the millions every year. The United States is a police state, and a violent and brutal one at that. If you want to find the highest rate of exploitation of all kinds, you go to the prisons, not the streets. I think this is common knowledge in the US. Do you feel safer in prison than in your house? The majority are nonviolent so I fail to see what huge threat they pose to society anyway. They're largely drug offenders without the money to pay for enough doctor's appointments to get their drugs prescribed to them. Oxycontin vs heroin, Adderall vs meth, etc. Yes, they prescribe meth to children, it's called Desoxyn. Adderall (more widely prescribed) and Desoxyn, both ADD drugs, are very similar. I met someone once who'd been taking Desoxyn since he was 5. By the way, you could apply "shame we have so many people needing locking up" to many other police states: China, USSR, Germany, etc. It's the hateful "Who cares they deserved it!" attitudes that allow things to get out of control.

Joe Citizen

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : noon

@Milton Shift I always find it interesting when people quote US incarceration statistics like it's a shame that America locks up so many people. I think it's a shame that so many people need locking up! Furthermore I think it's a blessing that American Law Enforcement is so successful in taking these animals off the streets locking them up. If we are so worried about what we are "known for" are you suggesting we let the criminals "rape" and "torture" without threat of incarceration?

Milton Shift

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 11:44 a.m.

Riceburner, this probably was the action of one or two individuals and not representative of the broader population. I'd hope they aren't that stupid. Prisoner's rights organizations are important - the United States has 4% of the world's population and yet 25% of the world's prisoners. Millions of people are subjected to incarceration every year in the United States; would you like the rape, malnutrition and torture of millions to be what we're known for?

Bella Blue

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 11:30 a.m.

Karma people. It'll get you every time!

Ricebrnr

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 11:23 a.m.

You know most animals even know not to poop where they eat and sleep. You wonder why criminals have such a hard time adjusting to normal society after incarceration? Maybe you should look at the criminals instead of anywhere else first and foremost.

smokeblwr

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 10:53 a.m.

Oh, the irony!! How long till this gets greenlit on fark.com?

cibachrome

Wed, Sep 29, 2010 : 10:44 a.m.

You will have to admit this is Late Show level humor. Maybe they should consider switching to a "Victim's Rights" advocacy, instead of their current lost cause.