Phillip Farber

Mon, Dec 28, 2009 : 11:27 a.m.

@atnaap Crank? I guess you don't walk enough to realize that lots of drivers look left for cross traffic before turning right and miss peds trying to cross from their right.. Regarding the statistics increase in pedestrian injuries since passage of right-turn-on-red (RTOR) please refer to:. http://bit.ly/5Q1E3I. To wit: "The results showed significant increases in pedestrian and bicyclist accidents involving right-turning vehicles at signalized locations following the introduction of Western RTOR.". Abstract:. Right-Turn-on-Red (RTOR), in its Western version allows motorists to turn right on a red signal after stopping and yielding, unless specifically prohibited by a sign. The objective of this study was to determine the effect of Western RTOR on pedestrian and bicycle accidents in selected jurisdictions adopting the rule in the mid-1970s. The results showed significant increases in pedestrian and bicyclist accidents involving right-turning vehicles at signalized locations following the introduction of Western RTOR. These increases were: 40 % for pedestrians and 82 % for bicycles in New York State; 107 % for pedestrians and 72 % for bicycles in Wisconsin; 57 % for pedestrians and 80 % for bicycles in Ohio; and 82 % for pedestrians in New Orleans. Analysis of police accident reports suggested that drivers stopped for a red light are looking left for a gap in traffic and do not see pedestrians and bicyclists coming from their right. Countermeasure research and development was recommended to deal with this well defined problem which involves between 1 % and 3 % of all pedestrian and bicycle accidents.

Phillip Farber

Mon, Dec 28, 2009 : 11:14 a.m.

@atnaab

Gerry Auth

Sun, Dec 27, 2009 : 9:01 a.m.

Rich, Did you ever find out the answer to my scenerio about proceeding straight thru a 3 way intersection?

Bill Merrill

Sat, Dec 26, 2009 : 10:12 a.m.

Thank you for your article Mr. Kinsey, I do have one question. The aside in your article seems to imply that it is illegal to ride a bicycle through a crosswalk. Can you share the ordinance that states this? The rules I'm familiar with indicate that bicyclist are allowed on sidewalks and crosswalks in Ann Arbor. These cyclists must always yield to pedestrians and must travel at speeds appropriate conditions.

T

Sat, Dec 26, 2009 : 9:44 a.m.

No Turn On Red This law is confusing, and I have been ticked for turning where the no turn on red sign was behind the rear bumper of the car behind me. I would eliminate every single no turn on red sign and put up LED signs that tun on when there is the rarely existing reason not to turn. Most of the signs look like they are there because somebody did something nobody in their right mind would ever do, but they are really there because they think somebody on E, crack or drunk will read them. I think we should load almost all these signs up on a dump truck and sell them to Ypsilanti.

jamullet

Thu, Dec 24, 2009 : 11:23 p.m.

Mr. Kinsey, you wrote, "bicycles (legally - being walked)." Could you point out the law or ordinance that says a bicycle has to be walked in a crosswalk?

Grumpy

Thu, Dec 24, 2009 : 1:33 a.m.

Lokalisierung - Huh??? Oh and...that's not a cell phone in my pocket.

3 4 a2

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:08 p.m.

Mr. Kinsey, Thank you for your clarification that you posted about 3P today re Right or Left signed stoplights. You said, "always err on the side of safety and wait for the light to turn green." I agree, BUT my appeal is to Ann Arbor's Traffic Engineering department to provide the final bit of safety. PLEASE PUT UP 'NO TURN ON RED" signs to avoid the confusion and the collisions. I often turn from EB Scio Church onto SB Main and have to constantly keep an eye on the rear view mirror, watching for an inattentive driver speeding over the hill toward the light and expecting me to turn since no southbound Main St. traffic is present. Yet, I know to wait, to be "safe" from an A2 ticket. I just don't want it to turn into waiting for a tow or an ambulance. The NTOR signs would easily, and safely settle the issue at all such intersections.

Domey

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 7:40 p.m.

All this confusion. It's no wonder there are so many traffic accidents. I sometimes wonder if people can drive a car without a cell phone pressed against their head.

Paul the Malcontent

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:46 p.m.

@Gerry: Straight is not equal to a right turn. In your scenario, you've run a red light, even if it maybe safer than a right turn on red.

Lokalisierung

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:45 p.m.

I think roundabouts are great...but the concept of driving by itself is so confusing to peopel in this town roundabouts are going to make heads explode.

needed perspective

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:45 p.m.

This was so much more fun than reading the blogs about RR and the plight of Michigan football. WHAT I would really like to see is a follow-up article about the proper entrances, lane changes and exits at MULTI-LANE ROUND-A-BOUTS that are now popping up---the public has not been educated and one's first encounter is...well...a pretty exciting event. It reminds me of Charley getting trapped on the MTA.

Paul the Malcontent

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:38 p.m.

Here's my $0.02 for what it's worth on the arrow vs. no arrow question and other traffic signal issues: I concur with Jenifer and Grumpy that the solid red arrow is the same as a full solid red light, and only a sign explicitly prohibiting a turn on red makes the maneuver illegal (whether it's PRUDENT at these intersections is a separate issue altogether). The direction indication (through either the use of an arrow or signage or both) merely indicates the direction of travel for the lane that light is controlling. Thus, going straight in a lane with a left- or right-facing arrow or with LEFT or RIGHT signage above the light is illegal, but making an otherwise legal turn-on-red is allowed. Green arrows always indicate the right-of-way over other vehicles. The yellow flashing arrows are a fairly recent phenomenon (usually in left turn lanes) that do not require a "full and complete stop" before proceeding with the turn when clear of traffic (i.e., a yield), which is technically the requirement for red flashing lights or arrows (applicable even in the left turn lanes, although few people observe this rule and it was not the intended consequence of utilizing the flashing red). Traffic safety studies have found the yellow flashing lights are safer than red flashing lights, and that left turns signaled as green immediately after the through traffic on the same road are both safer and better at reducing congestion. But in the long run, better start getting used to traffic circles/roundabouts, since they are considered the safest intersections and seem to be proliferating throughout our county.

Lokalisierung

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:29 p.m.

Awesome post Grumpy - Nothing better than a message board post complaining that no one is calling up to find out anything. That cell phone is probably burning a hole in your pocket.

Mike D.

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:15 p.m.

I'd really like a legal (not assumed) answer to the question of whether it's legal to make a right when there is a (red) right turn light but no sign stating "No right turn on red." I have looked at length through the motor vehicle code and not found any prohibition from turning right on red unless there is a sign specifically prohibiting it. The fact that many officers think you can't turn right on red doesn't make it the law. Officers are humans, not encyclopedias of traffic code. I once had an AAPD officer try to give me a ticket for having only a photocopy of my proof of insurance, and I had to calmly explain to her that she was mistaken about the law, and that any facsimile of the proof of insurance is acceptable. To her credit, she looked it up and admitted her error, but it taught me that every officer can't know the specifics of every law. Given that the actual written law is vague, I'd be interested in the case law that Rich Kinsey alludes may or may not exist. I'd be surprised to see such a charge hold up in court, but I am not a lawyer, so don't take my opinion as legal guidance. I routinely make rights on red at State and Eisenhower, and if I get a ticket there, there will be some case law generated. I'm all for obeying the actual law, but obeying what someone assumes may be the law based on a rumor they heard is another matter entirely.

Jeff S

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 5:54 p.m.

I learned all of this in drivers ed.. was I the only one paying attention??

Ryan Munson

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 5:08 p.m.

I've always wondered about this...

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 4:59 p.m.

Joel - If a cop was standing in front of a regular traffic lane where I could choose to either go straight or right, and he was telling me not to go right, I wouldn't. If he wasn't there, I would (provided it was safe, of course). So I don't understand the analogy. Do you have any documentation that a red light (round or arrow) at a right-turn lane automatically means no turn on red is allowed? Because I again ask why, then, does the right-turn-lane light at Jackson and Maple have explicit "no turn on red" signs?

Gerry Auth

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 4:59 p.m.

Rich, here is a tricky one for you... Lets say there is a "T" junction with a stop light in all 3 directions. Streets #1 and #3 are the straight thru streets and street #2 is the one that ends at the intersection requiring either a left or right turn. I contend that if you are stopped at the red light on street #1, that you can proceed thru the light straight thru to street #3 following all the rules of turning right on red. When you think about it, this is much safer than turning on red since you are never entering cross traffic or a cross street where traffic may be going fast staight thru the intersection. All traffic on street #2 must slow down making any potential collision very minor. What is your vote on this? NOTE this is only applicable if street #2 is to your left and you are basically in the curb lane all the way thru the intersection.

Grumpy

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 4:54 p.m.

Given that this day (Dec. 23rd) is officially Festivus For The Rest Of Us, before my final Airing of Grievances, allow me to quote the great Frank Costanza when he said, I GOTTA LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH YOU PEOPLE!!! Mr. Kinsey, you say: I could not find the cite in the Michigan Motor Vehicle Code (that says) when a light says "Right" or "Left" above it those turns are illegal. the Motor Vehicle Code is murky about turning on red under traffic signals designating "Right" or "Left"... Twice you say, If a traffic officer is reading is there a citation in the Motor Vehicle Code? Ive read this one over and over and cant begin to decipher what this means even with assumed typos. @3 4 a2 says, I surveyed A2 Police at their booth at the Art Fair a couple of summers ago. Most did not know this rule. Some said they would only stop a driver if there was a No Turn on Red sign that was ignored. They had never heard of the Right-signed light rule. The only one who did know, as I recall, was a female officer who was a ranking official in the "traffic/motor vehicle?" division. You say, This is great discussion, by drivers that care enough to get it right. Bravo. I didnt bring this up because I care enough to get it right. I will continue to make that turn at State and Eisenhower until there is a sign posted telling me I cant because some guy is going to be laying on his horn for me to go. And that guy will be 100% absolutely justified in doing so. AA cops could have a field day with us all if they camp out at that location for a single day. And when the cop pulls me over again, Ill hand him a copy of this post to show him that his former and current colleagues as well as many other citizens have no idea what hes talking about. You say, Therefore assume it is illegal. Will the cop that pulls me over also be making assumptions while hes writing me up? Im guessing theres no room for assumptions when it comes to the law. But youd know better than me. Will any person outside of the 30 posters, someone with some authority like a council member or a cop currently on the payroll, ever see all of this documented confusion? Or does this just get filed away on the ol intraweb never to be seen again? I guess I was hoping to hear Mr. Kinsey say he felt the urge to notify a contact of his at the next level and follow through with trying to solve a problem that could easily be remedied. Or maybe that a reporter at AA.com was pursuing a statement from the people who write the laws acknowledging that this issue is confusing, its being mistakenly enforced, and that something should be done about it. Are we all just wasting our breath and our time with this posting stuff or does anything good ever come out of it? And lastly, Hey Scooter dog. Take a break from the eggnog! Let the Feats of Strength BEGIN!!! Happy Festivus to all! And to all a good night!

Joel

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 4:52 p.m.

I think that an arrow and a round light DO mean the same thing when they are specifically for the right turning traffic. If there is a light for you, whether with arrows or round, you behave the same whether an arrow or round. Red means you can't go - but BLINKING red means you can go after stopping if it is clear. The difference is that a red arrow specifically for right or left turners is NOT the same as a round red light that is telling THROUGH traffic what to do. So you can turn right on a red THROUGH traffic light unless otherwise indicated. If there was a traffic cop standing in front of the right turn lane indicating "stop", you'd stop, right? Same thing.

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 2:44 p.m.

Joel - You asked, "Would anyone really think they could turn (right or left) if there was a solid red arrow? Now, a BLINKING arrow... " Yes. Absolutely. Whether I would do it in practice or not isn't my point, but the law clearly states that an arrow and a round light mean the same thing. So, if I would turn on a round red light, that means I could turn on a red arrow light. Would you interpret that differently? I totally agree that this is less relevant while actually driving and I'm not necessarily using it to make driving decisions. It's purely a debate of the technicalities of the laws as written and seen on the streets (hence my mentioning the Jackson Maple intersection).

Lokalisierung

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 2:43 p.m.

Ummm yeah Scooter dog,that does not account for why people have recieved tickets for exactly what you're talking about. You showed up a little late.

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 2:40 p.m.

Erring on the side of caution is good day-to-day advice, but I'm not the only one that would love any information people have beyond that. I think it's not an arrow, but rather a round red light, but google maps street view shows that if you're heading south on Maple Road at Jackson in Ann Arbor, the right turn lane has a dedicated light that says "right" above it as well as "no turn on red" signs, which would logically imply that an intersection with "right" and without "no turn on red" signs allows turning on red. http://preview.tinyurl.com/yzbd4fc

Joel

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 2:39 p.m.

In answer to Jenifer and others: I believe that "right on red" is a default rule - it is allowed in general, unless there is special signage stating otherwise ("no turn on red" or special lights - whether arrows or solid r-y-g - that indicate special rules for the right turners.) Isn't the key point that the main intersection lights are generally for the traffic going THROUGH the intersection? "Right on red" is a default rule telling right-turners what to do when the intersection crossers are receiving the "stop" message. Special signage or lights "trump" that general rule and require right turners to either follow the main light (wait for the green) or follow a special light just for them. What is so hard about that? If you see nothing indicating otherwise, you are allowed to turn right on red. Otherwise, follow the directions - "No turn on red" means you can't turn on red, even after stopping. Green right turn light means you are clear to turn without stopping - "Green means GO!" Yellow means you can turn without stopping but you have to yield; red means you just can't turn right right now... wait a little longer! The arrows are probably just to make it even more obvious - "Yes, YOU, turning right--- you can't go!" Would anyone really think they could turn (right or left) if there was a solid red arrow? Now, a BLINKING arrow... By the way --- yeah, I'm usually half-serious. We are just talking about what the rules are, not reality. The reality is that you better use your head and watch out. Just this past early Sunday morning while running across William at Main with practically zero traffic we confidentally jogged our cold bodies across in front of a car coming East on William --- the light was red for the driver, who had not yet reached the intersection and we were on the east (opposite) side. That car blew straight through and never tapped the brakes after... In the last year, I've seen cars stop at blinking yellows and sit there, and - within minutes of that incident - saw ANOTHER car blow straight through a blinking red (these were after midnight downtown.) So - rules are nice, but... they won't protect you from getting creamed by an idiot. I don't think we want to get into a discussion about whether all rules are or should be followed to a "T". Next thing you know we'd be talking about why our modern cars aren't programmed to limit our speed to local speed limits or why we don't have sensors and cameras that just send us tickets in the mail if we don't come to a COMPLETE stop---- and where would the police car tickets get mailed to????

scooter dog

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 2:34 p.m.

Hellooooo,time to wake up folks.The law is very clear,all you have to do is use a little common sence.It,the left turn on red law clearly says that. You may turn left onto a ONE WAY street,road,entrance to the e-way ect, as long as it is a ONE WAY whatever kind of roadway.It says nothing about turning left to a TWO way street or any other type of street that is not a ONE WAY avenue.Can't believe all the people that try and twist the very clearly written law into something that it is not.Unless there is a sign at the light or stop sign saying NO TURN ON RED then it is ok to turn.Its so simple my 6th grade son wrote most of this. Merry Christmas to all and have a safe new year turning left on a ONE WAY street

Rich Kinsey

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 2:21 p.m.

IndyA2 Briarwood Circle is a private drive. Eventhough the Motor Vehicle Code is murky about turning on red under traffic signals designating "Right" or "Left" there is probably some case law here. Therefore assume it is illegal. The reason being that opposing traffic moving in the other three directions may have special regulatory arrows that allow turns at times you might not expect. Traffic engineers will put these in where traffic can get tied up if certain lanes can't move more often than others. So my advice: Do not turn on red where "No Turn on Red", "Right" or "Left" are designated. If you are confused about a particular intersection, always err on the side of safety and wait for the light to turn green. This is great discussion, by drivers that care enough to get it right. Bravo and Happy Holidays

Atticus F.

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 2:11 p.m.

@ thanks ChrisW for digging that up. I've heard of people getting tickets at red arrows in the past and assumed that the officer was in the right without researching for myself.

Lokalisierung

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 1:47 p.m.

As stated by Patrick Haggood above

ChrisW

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 1:43 p.m.

Looks to me like you CAN make a right turn on a red even if the word RIGHT or LEFT appears over the signal. Michigan Vehicle Code says: (5) A sign prohibiting a turn on a red signal as provided in subsection (1)(c)(ii) shall be located above or adjacent to the traffic control signal or as close as possible to the point where the turn is made, or at both locations, so that 1 or more of the signs are visible to a vehicle operator intending to turn, at the point where the turn is made. An additional sign may be used at the far side of the intersection in the direct line of vision of the turning vehicle operator. Section (1)(c)(ii) says: (ii) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after stopping before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or at a limit line when marked or, if there is no crosswalk or limit line, before entering the intersection, may make a right turn from a 1-way or 2-way street into a 2-way street or into a 1-way street carrying traffic in the direction of the right turn or may make a left turn from a 1-way or 2-way street into a 1-way roadway carrying traffic in the direction of the left turn, unless prohibited by sign, signal, marking, light, or other traffic control device. The vehicular traffic shall yield the right of way to pedestrians and bicyclists lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection. http://tinyurl.com/michigancode So unless there's a sign explicitly prohibiting it, it seems legal. I am not a lawyer, police officer, or judge, so don't take my word for it, though.

A2Boy

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 1:38 p.m.

There is the blinking yellow arrow at Carpenter and Mich Ave. While the yellow arrow is blinking, the opposing traffic has a solid green. Why have a blinking yellow arrow to confuse drivers (who on yellow would clear the intersection when turning left, anticipating the cross traffic will soon receive a green light) when a red arrow would be much more clear to drivers?

Lokalisierung

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 1:25 p.m.

Yes jenifer, I should have said "Police have given tickets to people I know" for making a left on red in a lane with an arrow indicator light. Again...this really doesn't answer the question or give any proof either way. I've been combing the vihicle code for a long time now and can't find a peep that says it's illegal unless a sign indicates it.

IndyA2

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 1:08 p.m.

So Rich...who is responsible for the lack of lane markers on the northern section of Briarwood Circle...Briarwood or the City of Ann Arbor? The holiday-stressed drivers are bad enough around there to begin with, but many seem unaware there are actually TWO lanes in each direction. Thanks.

dading dont delete me bro

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 12:53 p.m.

ok..i have a question, same situation at two corners. north on hogback at clark and south on hewitt turning west at michigan ave. the light is either red or flashing (can't remember) but there is a green arrow pointing to the right, underneath. both of these have right turn lane sign arrows prior to the intersection...can we turn w/o stop (the green arrow) or do we stop (flasher) then turn? i guess i'll have an officer point it out to me...i yield (roll) and turn.

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 12:38 p.m.

Always hearing something and its being law are two different things, as evidenced by the multiple people on this thread who always heard (incorrectly) that you can only turn left on red from a 1-way to a 1-way. I'd still like to see any legal reference regarding the arrows if anyone can find it. You can argue logic and how things should be all day long, but it doesn't always work out that way in the end.

Lokalisierung

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 12:22 p.m.

"Thanks for the info about left turning. Could you next advise what the law is regarding people at a crosswalk? Elaborate crosswalks have been placed along Plymouth Road - but nobody stops!" Pedestrians first of all ALWAYS have the right of way (so you don't kill them), but cars MUST STOP for a pedestrian crosswalk that has the white lines through a street. Like in front of Connor O'neils on main street. Of course the Crosswalks you're talking about on Plymouth rd. were put there after somonone (multiple?)people were killed crossing that road. I always heard you cannot make a turn on red from any light that is an ARROW.

Grumpy

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 12:09 p.m.

Oh my gosh. aachnsed, what country are you and Joel from? Turning right on red and left on red are completely different and require different laws. Right on red is MUCH less dangerous. Only one direction of traffic to keep an eye on (plus pedestrians you may not want to squish). Left on Red = TWO lanes. One of which is barreling head on towards you at 50 mph.

Atticus F.

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 12:06 p.m.

The left guy who was ticketed turning left onto 5th AVE, was not ticketed because he was turning from a 2 way, but because there is a sign above the the left turn lane that says "left".

Barry St. Pierre

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 12:04 p.m.

@joel, one thing your logic doesn't take into account is that a right on red is optional. Is it possible that an arrow is controlling the right lane to compell a right turn not prohibit a right on red. I have heard from a traffic planner in the past that the State of Michigan actually doesn't like the blinking left turn lights. Some areas use them any way but the Ann Arbor area does not because of that.

Atticus F.

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 12:04 p.m.

Left turn on red, from a one way to a one way, is legal in all 50 states. Left turn on red, From a two way onto a one way, is legel in 14 states, including michigan. -wikipedia

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : noon

aachnsed - Because the law doesn't make any provision that an arrow light in the right lane is different from a regular light there.

movingontoarealpub

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 11:53 a.m.

Why wouldn't a light in the right lane have the same rules as a light in the left lane? In the left lane, a light overrides normal rules, with a solid red allowing no turns, and a blinking red allowing a left turn after stopping and yielding (like Joel mentioned). If I understand the rules for a left light it doesn't seem very difficult then to understand the right light. Any special rules/signs just for a right turn would seem to only make it more complex.

Brian

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 11:12 a.m.

All the "LEFT" and "RIGHT" signs do is denote those signalfaces as dedicated turn signals. They do not by themselves prohibit turns on red. To prohibit turns on red in situations where they'd be permitted otherwise, either a "NO TURN ON RED" or "LEFT (RIGHT) ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" (the latter obviously much rarer) sign has to be used. While the federal MUTCD specifies that turns are supposed to be prohibited on a steady red-arrow indication (unless a sign is installed which permits it), as stated earlier, the Michigan Vehicle Code makes no such distinction.

Grumpy

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 11:07 a.m.

Joel. Was that post serious? If so, I have a feeling you are "one that has confused many people you know for years." Holy cow. Mr. Kinsey, perhaps you can have your people copy and paste that explanation into the current law. It would fit right in. Hilarious. Just put the stupid no turn sign up so that someone who moves to Ann Arbor next month or is visiting doesn't have to research local traffic laws and newspapers or go through a mind bending thought process to figure out the town's intentions.

Patrick Haggood

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:58 a.m.

@Garrott - I've been also mis-informed about this law for years; I'd also been told it was left only from a 1-way TO a 1-way and haven't had any luck verifying this until I followed the link in the article: "(ii) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after stopping before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or at a limit line when marked or, if there is no crosswalk or limit line, before entering the intersection, may make a right turn from a 1-way or 2-way street into a 2-way street or into a 1-way street carrying traffic in the direction of the right turn or may make a left turn from a 1-way or 2-way street into a 1-way roadway carrying traffic in the direction of the left turn, unless prohibited by sign, signal, marking, light, or other traffic control device. The vehicular traffic shall yield the right of way to pedestrians and bicyclists lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection."

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:56 a.m.

Joel - I agree with your logic, but logic doesn't always define laws. If, by law, a red arrow and a red circle mean exactly the same thing, doesn't the logic fall apart?

Joel

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:52 a.m.

The question about turning right on red when there is a specific signal light for turning right (with arrows, r-y-g lights, whatever)is a good one that has confused many people I know for years. Though it takes some thinking (at least once), I have always assumed that there would not be a specific signal light for turning right unless you were NOT allowed to turn right on red, even when traffic is clear. If the DEFAULT rule without any other signage is that you can turn right on red when traffic is clear, there would be no need for a special signal unless planners don't want you deciding when it is okay to turn on red. If the intent of planners was to SPECIFICALLY let drivers turn right on red when traffic is clear, they could provide a blinking red light for the right turn lane (because you are ALWAYS supposed to stop for right turns on red - despite what many people actually do - - - so a blinking "yield" yellow would not make sense.) So I believe that one should assume that if there is a special signal, the decision is being taken out of the driver's hands - that the signal is overriding the normal rule, just as "No turn on red" overrides the normal rule. Essentially, the special signal says, "Turn right on red only sometimes - when the light says you can." (That light may be red, yellow or green, or it may blink, whatever.) There could be many reasons for taking this decision out of the driver's hands - perhaps normal traffic flow and "right on reds" would give little safe chance for pedestrian crossings, or visibility of the oncoming traffic in the lane you are turning into may be poor and/or the traffic may be too fast (legally or not), etc. I believe that if there is a signal, there is probably a reason beyond annoying us. (Not always true, but I think these are usually designed by traffic planners and safety engineers, not "The Man.") And, of course, if there is doubt, I've always assumed that any impatient driver honking behind me deserves to sit in their false confidence --- there is no way anyone could be THAT positive that you are allowed to make that turn on red - especially because you probably can't!

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:29 a.m.

You know, this sentence from the traffic code certainly makes it sound like a right turn on red at a light with a right arrow and the sign "right" above it is legal if it is not otherwise posted no turn on red: Red arrow and yellow arrow indications have the same meaning as the corresponding circular indications, except that they apply only to vehicle operators intending to make the movement indicated by the arrow.

WW II Veteran

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:27 a.m.

Ann Arbor and Washtenaw county collect hundreds of thousadnd of dollars at intersections where there is no turn on red, first of all at many intersections the sign is behind the white line where one is supposed to stop and secomdly at night 95 percent of the no turn signs that are up high by the traffic light are not lighted and impossible to see at night. Therefore I do not turn right even when it is legal on red then the person behind me gives me the horn..Too bad Sorry guys

jenifer

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:25 a.m.

Bobby Garrott - You are incorrect. It is legal to turn left on red onto southbound Fifth Avenue from Huron. Follow the link to the Michigan traffic code above and you'll see the following regarding a vehicle facing a solid red light: may make a left turn from a 1-way or 2-way street into a 1-way roadway carrying traffic in the direction of the left turn You may have gotten a ticket, but that doesn't mean the officer was correct in ticketing you.

Grumpy

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:17 a.m.

Crap. We must have been typing at the same time. Just saw your follow up post. My bad. Keep up the good work! I hope your fellow officers understand how confusing this, conduct a thorough review of all intersections where this occurs, and post "No Turn On Red" signs where appropriate. There is absolutely no need for this ambiguity.

Thick Candy Shell

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:11 a.m.

@Bobby Garrott, if you are west bound on Huron, you can turn left on red on to Fifth and head southbound.

Grumpy

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 10:10 a.m.

Mr. Kinsey, you say "I think that clears up most of the questions?" Cleary my point about turning right on a red arrow is misunderstood by a number of us including your former officers. This law is obscure and idiotic. And the only way we can learn about it is if we happened to read an article in the old Ann Arbor News that appeared who knows when or if a cop is parked at one of these locations and pulling us over one at a time to educate us? What the heck? This is clearly a more important topic to address than nine paragraphs on clean windshields.

Rich Kinsey

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:53 a.m.

One last clarification. When a light says "Right" or "Left" above it, officers have told me those turns are illegal also, but I could not find the cite in the Michigan Motor Vehicle Code. If a traffic officer is reading is there a citation in the Motor Vehicle Code? I have heard this enough, that I would say a turn on red at these intersections is illegal. Usually this is done because there will be an opposing traffic turn arrow that would put vehicles in your path if you tried to make the turn on red. So the short answer. Do Not Turn On Red Where there is a "Right" or "Left" designation over the light. And once again: If in doubt do not turn on red, wait for the green signal.

L

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:47 a.m.

Wait-- the wording makes it seem like you don't have to stop at a red light to make a right turn if the way is clear. Is that right?

Bob Heinold

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:46 a.m.

Two observations: 1) People cruise the red or stop, so pedestrians really have to be careful, especially at intersections like Miller and Seventh and Miller and First. 2) Yakking on the cellphone while turning or maneuvering through a roundabout is also a menace to us pedestrians.

Rich Kinsey

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:43 a.m.

First of all Ms. Wang please DO NOT TURN LEFT ON RED ONTO A TWO WAY STREET. You can't do that. As for red turn arrows, do not make the left turn onto a one way street unless the red arrow is blinking or the light changes to a green arrow. For Westbound Washtenaw onto Southbound Yost you can not make that turn on red. You can only turn left onto a one way street. Yost is a two way street. When making a left turn (at a red light or not) you are always supposed to stay in the inside lane as you complete the turn. This is especially important if there are tandem lanes turning left. The proper maneuver is to make the turn into the inside lane and if you have to get over to the right, signal, look, wait for traffic to clear and then make your lane change. I think that clears up most of the questions. Remember: If You Have Any Doubt Do Not Make The Turn On Red

JJM

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:28 a.m.

Very informative article. I always thought that left turn on red was only allowed from a one-way to a one-way. I'll certainly take advantage of this information. On a related subject... I've been driving into Canton lately. How come their traffic signals are so much more logical than Ann Arbor's? Every major intersection has a left turn signal. The left signal starts out flashing red when the main traffic signal is green. The left turn signal turns green at the end of the cycle instead of at the beginning, as is the case for most in Ann Arbor. Having the flashing red left-turn signal in combination with the green arrow at the end makes for much smoother traffic flow and less waiting for left turns.

Steve Gilzow

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:19 a.m.

Add me to the list of people who would appreciate clarification about turning right on a red arrow, when there is no sign stating No Turn on Red.

mpi

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:17 a.m.

Thanks for the info about left turning. Could you next advise what the law is regarding people at a crosswalk? Elaborate crosswalks have been placed along Plymouth Road - but nobody stops! I'm never sure if I should stop, because I know the cars in the next lane will continue to zoom past and put the pedestrians in danger as they begin to cross. What is the correct thing to do?

theodynus

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:10 a.m.

@PhillipFarber: I assume you have statistics to show that right-turn-on-red has caused an uptick in fatalities at stoplights. Otherwise, I'd have to dismiss you as a crank.

Linda Peck

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 9:07 a.m.

Thanks for posting interesting helpful blogs here Rich! Happy Holidays!

3 4 a2

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 8:58 a.m.

Mr. Kinsey, Please address the point raised by Mr. Leckrone. I find it dangerous to wait at a red light that has the word RIGHT over it. We were informed years ago by an A2 News story that right turns on red are NOT allowed when there is a RIGHT turn sign attached to the right lane stoplight. Most drivers do not know this variation of the law. They don't slow approaching behind you while you are waiting at a red light. They could rear end a car easily, anticipating that you will turn. My suggestion is that a No Turn On Red should also be posted at such lights to remove the pressure. Also, police should issue warnings since this law is so poorly promulgated, even among the police force. Because of a continuing, fun debate with a family member over this law, I surveyed A2 Police at their booth at the Art Fair a couple of summers ago. Most did not know this rule. Some said they would only stop a driver if there was a No Turn on Red sign that was ignored. They had never heard of the Right-signed light rule. The only one who did know, as I recall, was a female officer who was a ranking official in the "traffic/motor vehice?" division. You would do a real service if you would discuss this aspect specifically in a column.

jcj

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 8:48 a.m.

Rich Thank you for the article. I had no misunderstanding of the law, But it is refreshing to see an article that is helpful and where the comments are positive. I agree there is very little laying on the horn in Ann Arbor. Kudos to the patients of our drivers in that regard. Every time (well most of the time) I start to get impatient I think about the times I let my thoughts wander to something other than the task at hand.

Phillip Farber

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 8:32 a.m.

I'm old enough to remember a time when it was illegal to turn on red anywhere. The law was changed in the 70's, supposedly to save fuel. Personally, I believe the hidden agenda was to speed up traffic flow. We're such an impatient lot. We have been paying the price in pedestrian deaths ever since. It is illegal in the entire European Union to turn right on red unless specifically posted. What does it say about our auto-centric culture that these efficiencies are worth the toll in human life?

Bill Sloan

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 8:13 a.m.

I appreciate the clarification, and have a related question. Is there a law that requires turning from the inside lane to the inside lane from a two-way onto a two-way, or is it just consideration and common sense? For example, when turning left from 7th onto Huron if a driver aims for the outside lane cars overlap resulting in gridlock.

Max Peters

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 7:54 a.m.

This is actually very helpful as I just moved from out of state. I'm frequently on Jackson Rd heading east and to get onto Zeeb you have to go through a two-lane U-turn with a light to go west on Jackson and then turn right onto Zeeb. So - can you turn left at a red from either lane? It seems like there is a similar situation getting off of westbound 94 to go to the mall - can you turn right on red to get onto State (?) from either lane?

spm

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 7:45 a.m.

@Frances Kai... To answer your question, no, you cannot make a left turn off of a one-way street INTO a two-way street on a red light. Left turns are only allowed onto one way streets.

MDavid

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 7:30 a.m.

Thanks. Is a freeway on-ramp considered a one-way street? Based on the article, a traffic light left-turn signal governs turning left onto I-94W at northbound AA-Saline Rd., yet it's a long light cycle and I see many people turning left onto the on-ramp off a red signal.

Indicat

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 7:16 a.m.

Thanks, Rich! I especially like the last sentence. I'll make sure my teen-aged drivers read this.

Grumpy

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 7:15 a.m.

Can someone clear this up for me? I got pulled over by an AA cop at the corner of State & Eisenhower for turning RIGHT on red to go eastbound. I told the cop I didn't see a "No Turn On Red" sign. He told me that's because there isn't one. I am just supposed to know that when the word "RIGHT" or "LEFT" appears above a signal, you can't turn on red. The cop said he pulls people over all the time and no one else knows this law either. He said he was taught this in driver's ed. I took driver's ed a long time ago and out of state. Thankfully, I only got a warning. But I was still irritated at the waste of my time and the needless blocking of traffic on eastbound Eisenhower during rush hour for driver's ed training. If there's no turning on red at an intersection, they should put a sign up.

Gerald Leckrone

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 7 a.m.

What about turning from westbound Washtenaw onto Yost? Yost is not oneway, but there is a traffic island in the middle of Washtenaw at that location, and I often have to wait for a long time for the light to turn, especially at night, when there is no traffic coming. Traffic from Yost going onto Washtenaw can only turn right, so there is no danger of interference from that traffic.

yohan

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:58 a.m.

The photo is of Huron at Fifth... that's two points on your writer's license.

Frances Kai-Hwa Wang

Wed, Dec 23, 2009 : 6:57 a.m.

Thanks, I always get confused by this and wonder every time I turn whether or not it's ok! But can you also make a left turn OFF OF a one-way street on to a two-way street on a red light?