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Posted on Mon, Jun 20, 2011 : 7:25 p.m.

Bicyclist killed after collision with dump truck

By Cindy Heflin

Bicycle_fatality_Howrey.jpg

A woman consoles the driver of a dump truck involved in the crash that killed Eugene Philip Howrey near Boulder, Colo., on Friday.

Jeremy Papasso | Boulder Daily Camera

A founding member of the Ann Arbor Bicycle Touring Society was killed Friday when a dump truck pulling a trailer loaded with construction equipment hit him as he was riding his bike near Boulder, where he lived.

Eugene Philip Howrey, 73, was thrown about 36 feet from the impact, said Cpl. Eric Wynn with the Colorado State Patrol. He was declared dead at the scene. He had been wearing a helmet at the time of the crash.

Howrey, known as Phil to friends and family, moved from the Ann Arbor area to Boulder several years ago.

Phil_Howrey.jpg

Phil Howrey, doing what he loved.

Photo courtesy of the Howrey family

The preliminary crash investigation indicates that the truck driver, Christopher G. Loven, 45, of Boulder County, failed to yield the right of way, Wynn said.

Loven was driving west on Lefthand Canyon Road, while Howrey was riding east, Wynn said. The truck hit Howrey’s bike as Loven attempted to turn left onto southbound Olde Stage Road shortly after noon, he said. Howrey swerved to try to avoid the crash, he said. The investigation is continuing, and no charges have been filed, Wynn said.

Howrey's wife, Sharon, was riding with her husband when the crash occurred, Howrey's son, Mark, said today.

Loven was convicted two years ago for his role in a road rage incident with a cyclist in the same area where the fatal crash occurred, the Daily Camera in Boulder reported today. Loven was ticketed on suspicion of reckless endangerment in 2009 after a cyclist said Loven used his truck to push him into oncoming traffic, The Daily Camera reported. He pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor charge, the newspaper said.

Mark Howrey said today the fatal accident was all the more shocking because his dad was extremely safety conscious.

“I remember as a kid we always had to wear helmets even when no one else was,” said Howrey, who now lives in the Boston area.

Frank Lamitola, a member of the Ann Arbor Bicycle Touring Society, who went on many rides with Howrey during the years, seconded that.

“He was the safest rider I’ve ever ridden with,” he said today. “We rode tandem together quite a bit. He was constantly scanning the area and checking the intersections. He knew exactly how to handle a tandem.”

Mark Howrey said today the family never worried about his father’s safety while riding.

“It was very shocking and it still is shocking, but he died doing what he loved best, and we’re all thankful that it was very quick and painless.”

Howrey was one of about a dozen charter members who more than 30 years ago formed the Ann Arbor Bicycle Touring Society, a prominent biking club that organizes daily group rides for road and mountain bike enthusiasts as well as participating in in-state and out-of-state tours.

“The articles of incorporation were signed on our dining room table,” Mark Howrey said.

Though Mark Howrey no longer rides himself, he has fond memories of growing up in a bicycle-riding family

“I remember the early times of the breakfast rides on Saturday morning, when we all met at the Gandy Dancer before riding out to Dexter. And it was just special family time.” The club still conducts those Saturday Morning Breakfast Rides to Dexter and beyond.

Howrey also spread the love of cycling to his three stepchildren, Howrey said.

Fellow riders fondly remember Howrey’s enthusiasm and endurance for his sport. Riding tandem, Howrey and Lamitola participated in several 24-hour challenge rides in Michigan, gradually improving their performance until they came in first.

AABTS member Dieter Hohnke recalls participating in a late-season ride called The Hills of Ann Arbor. It was cold and snowing as they finished the November ride, Hohnke said.

“When I had done the rounds and I was happy to go home, Phil said let’s do it again.” And he did, this time by himself.

“He was just a great guy,” Lamitola said. “I’m really going to miss him because it was just a wonderful time we’ve had on bikes. … I’m at a loss for words.

Comments

TinyArtist

Thu, Jun 23, 2011 : 3:07 a.m.

Phil was a consummate rider and an all-around great guy. He will be missed.

Huron 74

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 3:01 p.m.

Riding bicycles in traffic is dangerous and always has been. There are so many places for people to take pleasure rides. Oh, I know you have a RIGHT to the road. But how many cyclists do not follow the RULES of the road? (I'm not saying Mr Howrey wasn't). Just the other day I was driving south on Maple Rd. A bicycle came in from a side road at a fast clip, did not stop at the stop sign, and almost ran into the side of my truck. I could not swerve because of oncoming traffic. Was I supposed to stop? He didn't. How many times have I waited patiently to pass a cyclist on a city street only to have them cruise past me at the next stoplight? That's illegal for a motorcycle, I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a bike. The other day, a lady cyclist was riding in the middle of a lane when there was a nice, paved bike path just off the road. So, cyclists, think about the risk you're taking and please, act responsibly and follow the rules.

KJMClark

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.

The cyclist from the side road broke the law. Did you say anything to them? What do you expect the rest of us cyclists to do about it? How many times have you gone faster than the speed limit? Bicyclists don't have to use a sidepath. That's not a rule. If the lady was biking in the middle of the lane, she *might* have been not keeping to the right; depends on pavement conditions, her destination, other traffic, her speed, etc. But she doesn't have to use a glorified sidewalk just because someone put one there. That's no "rule" that says she does. What's with all the motorists that make up new rules and get upset that bicyclists don't follow them? The only set of "rules" is the "law". You don't even have to read the law. What Every Driver Must Know is good enough. See chapter 9, "Sharing the Road Safely - Be Courteous"

Eric Miller

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 4:42 p.m.

I bike commute to work, and there are some sections where I have to ride in traffic. It's the safest place to be in those areas. Granted, there are bad cyclists out there. Plenty of bad drivers, too. I'm pretty sure driving a car on the highway kills a higher proportion of drivers than riding bicycles in traffic kills cyclists.

Chase Ingersoll

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 3:55 a.m.

State law does not allow me to drive without a seat belt, even if I am in a 2 ton car, only going 20 miles per hour, and wearing a crash helmet. But I can strap a piece of styrofoam to my head, climb onto 2 wheels without a protective crash cage, airbags or a seatbelt, and ride as fast as I can go right along side the automobiles without worrying about a ticket. There is no logic to this.

EyeHeartA2

Thu, Jun 23, 2011 : 1:50 a.m.

..of course. and of course there is no way to prove it either. any more than I can prove the number of times bikes have blasted in front of me doing exactly what you described riding on the sidewalk next to the designated bike lane. or I can prove the bike going through the roundabout next to the million dollar bike bridge over US23 at Geddes. But anyway, whatever you say.

Eric Miller

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 4:36 p.m.

@EyeHeartA2—Wrong. It was a sidewalk designated as a sidewalk bike path. Ask before assuming you know the facts.

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 2:03 p.m.

"I was struck while riding a sidewalk by a driver who wasn't looking out for bicyclists on sidewalks." Please let me rephrase that for you: I was struck while riding a sidewalk by a driver who wasn't looking out for bicyclists riding where they shouldn't be.

Eric Miller

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 12:25 p.m.

So... state law would protect bicyclists by keeping them out of traffic lanes? My son was struck while crossing a street on a crosswalk because a driver ran the red light. I was struck while riding a sidewalk by a driver who wasn't looking out for bicyclists on sidewalks. I thought they looked right at me, but apparently I was invisible. A friend of mine was struck while riding a paved path by a driver who did not stop BEFORE the path as they are supposed to, but instead was going to stop with the nose of their car across the path, as most drivers do. The list goes on. Riding in traffic lanes in some places is safer than the sidewalk or paved path next to the street. How would the state protect these riders? Any driver who has a problem with bicycles on the road is a bad driver. And in this incident, the driver had a history of road rage toward cyclists. A very bad driver, indeed.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 11:32 a.m.

First, in another conversation, Mr. Ingersoll wants to redistribute wealth. Now he wants (apparently) to regulate bicyclists as if they were driving cars. Time for him to turn in his membership card to the RepubliKan Party!! Good Night and Good Luck

chingon

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 4:28 a.m.

Your statement lacks logic

psa97531

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 3:08 a.m.

I know Phil and Sharon from our cross country ski trips and hiking. I'm sure I speak for all of their ski club friends when I say that our hearts and thoughts are with the entire family. Phil's smile could make anyone's day better. He will be dearly missed. Know that we are there with you.

chingon

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 12:49 a.m.

This might seem like an opportune time to gripe about those cyclists who bother you by their mere existence, or because they themselves break the rules. However, for anyone who has been to the location of this incident, who has seen the wide-open location, who realizes how difficult it would be to NOT see an oncoming cyclist, it is very difficult to see this as an accident. Without even considering the drivers previous history, of aggressive driving behavior towards a cyclist, it is my opinion that this is probably not an accident. I suspect the driver will have a long and sad life ahead of him, remembering what it is like to have taken someone's life. I cannot imagine that the death of this man was in his plans. However, it was the result of his actions. I hope that he manages to do something positive with the vast amount of negative energy he must be carrying on his shoulders. This is one of those things that should never have happened…Tragic and Sad…for everyone involved. Especially the driver, who will be questioning his actions for the rest of his life.

K32

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 7:25 p.m.

Very sad story. IMO Southeastern Michigan is a terrible place to cycle; few paved roads and heavy trafficon them. When I lived in two other states I was a serious cyclist--raced and toured. I gave it up soon after moving here and now only bike the gravel roads on a mountain bike. I 'm surprised there aren't more fatalities like this one. My condolences to the family.

Lew Kidder

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 11:51 p.m.

@K32 You do know this accident occurred in Colorado, right?

judy gallaher

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:45 p.m.

Phil, you will be missed.... I enjoyed cycling with Phil on a number of tours in Europe. I will never forget that smiling face of his, always smiling, even climbing up the cols in the Alps and Pyrenees. My heart goes out to Phil"s loving, caring wife...Sharron

StephinA2

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:34 p.m.

I think the ancient Romans may dispute John B.'s contention that the first paved roads were intended for bicyclists (consider, for instance, The Appian Way). In any case, it makes no difference how-why-when-where paved roads were first constructed. We live in the 21st Century and at this time cars, motorcycles, scooters/Vespas, and bicycles are legally entitled to use the roads; this privilege, however, comes with the responsibility for the vehicles' operators to adhere to the current and applicable laws regarding such use. If you choose to disregard the law, then the resulting consequences may be at your and/or someone else's peril. Despite our individual views on the bike v. car debate, I think we can all agree that common courtesy and common sense are characteristics that are required of, but are sadly lacking in, many motorists and bicyclists alike. I endeavor to be aware at all times when driving that I am behind the wheel of what is, essentially, a 2-ton killing machine (that's how my parents taught me to think of a car), and that the victim of my carelessness, selfishness, tardiness, delusions of self-entitlement, or blatant disregard for the law may be me and/or an innocent person. I ask myself, "Is the rather insignificant amount of extra time I will gain by speeding/driving recklessly/passing in a bike lane/disregarding a stop sign/etc. worth my own injury/death or the guilt/trauma/penalties for harming someone else?" I think not. My sympathies to the Howrey family.

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 9:53 p.m.

"I think the ancient Romans may dispute John B.'s contention that the first paved roads were intended for bicyclists (consider, for instance, The Appian Way). " (Sigh...). Everyone's a comedian.... Make that "US paved roads." I do agree with your comment, though! When cycling, I try to act as much like a car as is reasonably possible (and be as predictable as possible - no driver likes or needs surprises on the road). I am in no way a member of the 'anti-destination league,' for example. That said, I'm typically moving at maybe 15 mph on a human-powered vehicle that weighs 25 pounds, not in a self-propelled vehicle that weighs two tons, so I can't 'be a car.' I am, however, legally a vehicle under the Uniform Vehicle Code, with all that implies....

Eric Miller

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:56 p.m.

Drivers, do you think cyclists realize they are making your drive take longer, but don't care?

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 9:54 p.m.

Nope.

Bellicoster

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:46 p.m.

I'll start obeying every single law as though I were a car. I'll be easy to spot, for I'll be the guy that commandeered an entire lane just for me. If you want us to pretend that we're cars, we can do that. I'll be much safer that hugging the shoulder. Seriously people, when we bend the rules, the only ones we're endangering is ourselves.

MIKE

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:24 p.m.

I bend the rules in my car too, but only when it's safe. I guess we're all good.

Stephen Landes

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:25 p.m.

@leaguebus You say you obey all the rules just as if you were driving a car, yet you still get the "middle finger" treatment. Have you thought that maybe you are being tarred with the general bicyclist brush. If you obey all the traffic laws then you are the exception. I am frequently in the presence of cyclists who are car-like when it suits them, pedestrian-like when that works best for them (on sidewalks instead of roads, following pedestrian rules instead of motor vehicle rules), and totally ignore the rules when they think it is "ok". Doesn't a STOP sign mean STOP? or do cyclists spell STOP some other way? If your spoke-wheeled brethren followed all the traffic laws on a consistent basis they would have a much better chance of being respected by other road users.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 12:07 a.m.

Because, gosh, drivers of automobiles always come to full stops at stop signs, never run red lights, never make turns into oncoming traffic, never go over the speed limit, never cut off other drivers, never go though parking lots on a corner rather than wait for the light to turn, never tailgate, never multitask while driving . . . . As someone said above, if a bicyclist fails to follow the law, they put only themselves in danger. When vehicle drivers do any of the above, they put others at risk. The two are not equivalent. And, even if they were, at some point before I turned three years old, my parents taught me that two wrongs do not make a right. Good Night and Good Luck

KJMClark

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:34 p.m.

John, do you not see the vast majority of motorists speeding, tailgating, and cutting other motorists off? It's the same percentage, you're just not looking very hard. Try doing the speed limit some time, and see how long it takes to spot people breaking that law or riding your bumper.

KJMClark

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:31 p.m.

What do you propose leaguebus do about other cyclists? What do you propose to do about other motorists passing bicyclists at a safe distance? See how blaming a cyclist for what other bicyclists do is pointless?

John of Saline

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:26 p.m.

Yeah, the lack of respect for pedestrians in Ann Arbor by some bikes is legendary. I was struck four times by bikes on campus while walking. They ride too fast for the walks, failing to be in control of their vehicle for conditions. Of course, they never stop or apologize. I've watched bikers knock people to the ground and just keep going like nothing happened ("hey, cleared that obstacle"). Again, it's a percentage thing: I see a much higher percentage of bikers flout the law than cars or pedestrians. (The article makes clear that this poor fellow did everything right, and the driver is in the wrong here, kind of like the Maple road death a few years back. No, not all bikers are a problem and some do ride as the law allows and are very considerate. It's unfortunate for these riders that there is a large subset that think laws and courtesy are for others. The "Critical Mass" jerks come to mind.)

Just_Six

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 3:46 p.m.

My condolences to the Howrey family, this is just tragic. Dexterreader, I confess that I am one of those bicyclists that slow down and proceed through stop signs and red lights, after carefully checking that no traffic is coming. I do this because it takes me a while to get my speed up after a complete stop, and I am concious of not wanting to hold up traffic. I realize that I am still breaking the law, nonetheless, but most cyclists are really trying to not hamper the motorized traffic. Obviouscomment, please take a look at the edges of the roads in A2, and you will see why we ride in the lane. The shoulders and road edges on many of our roads are terrible and very dangerous to bikes. And the fact is that we are legally permitted to ride on the road and are not required to move over. When we do, it as a courtesy and most of us try to do this. As someone who also drives a motor vehicle and pays lots of taxes in this state and town, it is my right to be there as long as I am complying with the law. I bike on Huron River Drive a great deal of the time and I have to say that traffic there is overwhelmingly polite and road-sharing. If you are one of those drivers, please accept my gratitude and respect--I will do what I can to not hold you up.

obviouscomment

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 8:23 p.m.

I know that you ride in the lane because there is no shoulder, that's my point, don't ride on that road then, go somewhere else. I understand that you are legally permitted to ride and as a courtesy I always get over when possible to pass a bicyclist...but why am I expected to be courteous and bicyclists aren't? That's the point I'm making...if I'm courteous enough to get over, you should be courteous enough to get over when I can't. Why does "share the road" always apply to drivers and not bicyclists?

John of Saline

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:20 p.m.

You are fully entitled to use the roads by following the same rules. I see perhaps 1-2% of cars not stop at stop signs. As I said, my observation is that with bikes, it's at least 90%; I'm actually shocked to see one following the law now. My favorite are the ones that blow through red lights and force me (with a green) to jam on the brakes. Usually I get flipped off for saving their lives. In Ann Arbor, another popular bike pastime is going the wrong way on one-way streets.

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:31 p.m.

...and you think that all cars obey all stop signs??? At a four-way stop, if there are any motor vehicles present, I will come to a full stop when riding my bike, unless, say, just one other car is present and he/she waves me through the intersection (which does occur sometimes). Please remember that a bicycle is legally a vehicle, just like a car, truck or motorcycle, and as such, is fully entitled t be on public roads. Also remember that the paving of roads was initiated for bicyclists over one hundred years ago. Mass-produced automobiles didn't even exist yet.

John of Saline

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 4:02 p.m.

If I am at a four-way stop and a bike approaches, I assume they will stop as well, as per law. Of course, 90% of the time they go right through. I had one the other day do that just as I was starting up again, then stop and sarcastically gesture like he was doing me a big favor by stopping, like he's supposed to. I've seen parents with kids on their bikes whip through four-way stops without looking. Stop when you're supposed to. I do on my bike when I ride. It's not that hard.

debling

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.

Our hearts go out to the family of Mr. Howrey. A very sad time indeed. We still are deeply affected by the tragic death of our good friend and cyclist Timothy Pincikowski, killed almost 2 years ago in Pittsfield by motorist Nicholas Wahl of Clinton, MI. Will cycling safety ever improve? Will justice ever be served?

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:20 p.m.

No, unfortunately, because there are no significant penalties for killing someone with a motor vehicle. Until these perps start getting A) charged with the appropriate crimes (which rarely even occurs), B) convicted, and C) receiving significant jail time, nothing will change.

Ron Granger

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 3:13 p.m.

What a tragedy. Unfortunately, the penalties in these cases are often just wrist slaps. What did the previous poster say - push someone into traffic with a hand and it is murder. But do it intentionally with a truck and it's a misdemeanor? How is it that this driver only received a wrist strap for previously being convicted of willfully forcing a cyclist into oncoming traffic? He used his truck as a weapon. And yet he did not even lose his commercial license. From the article in the Daily Camera: The Camera reported in 2009 that Loven was ticketed on suspicion of reckless endangerment after a cyclist said Loven used his truck to push him into oncoming traffic near Lee Hill Drive and Olde Stage Road. A witness confirmed the cyclist's account. Court records show Loven pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor charge and was sentenced to probation and community service in that case, which exacerbated tensions between bicyclists and drivers in Boulder County. Wynn said investigators will use evidence only from Friday's crash in making a determination of fault. "These are two separate incidents," Wynn said Monday. "You can't hold someone accountable in one case for something that happened in another case."

MIKE

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.

Dalex Understood. And yes, in this case, the truck driver appears at fault. But would that change if we discovered the bicyclist had a history of driving unsafely? I contend it wouldn't, given what the facts are. And what if the truck driver had a perfect driving record? Now, if there were questions about what happened, we may look into each persons past. Knowing some facts, we don't need to, until this case gets to a courtroom.

Dalex64

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:44 p.m.

Mike, This particular article states that the initial investigation indicates that the truck driver failed to yield the right of way. If this does not change, then the bicyclist is not at fault. What you are asking is hypothetical. What we have been told so far indicates that the bicyclist is not at fault. You can certainly use someone's history to lead an investigation down certain paths to try to determine what happened. Going back to your hypothetical statement, I'll go there also. Say some person had a habit of walking in front of cars to get injury settlements. If this person had a record indicating past behavior of this type, investigators would certainly take a closer look in that direction in a new case.

MIKE

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:01 p.m.

Amy In a trial maybe, but not when trying to determine exactly what happened in this particular incident. Let's say the bicyclist was at fault. Does that change because of the previous conviction?

Amy Lesemann

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 4:08 p.m.

Ridiculous. You can definitely use a previous conviction to show a pattern of behavior.

KJMClark

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 3:01 p.m.

Separately, the truck driver was convicted of road rage a few years ago, and what happened there isn't uncommon here. The cyclist was biking in a bike lane. Mr. Loven passed so close the cyclist felt his mirror go past his ear. The cyclist yelled, Mr. Loven stopped, blocking the bike lane, then pushed the cyclist into on-coming traffic when the cyclist tried to legally go around. This is pretty standard unsafe passing distance (which is illegal) , followed by road rage that I've personally seen before in Ann Arbor. It's worse because many motorists ignore bike lane lines and drive in bike lanes. I walked home last night and to work this morning and decided to count the number of motorists driving in the adjacent bike lane on westbound Plymouth. I counted 14 out of 52 motorists driving in the bike lane who went by in the right lane while I was walking. That included two buses, a dump truck, and a large pickup pulling a trailer. But that's a misdemeanor under Uniform Traffic Code, which Ann Arbor has adopted. We don't need better laws. We just need a bit of enforcement, for both motorists and cyclists.

KJMClark

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 12:28 a.m.

Mike - Yes!!! Absolutely right! That's my point. The funny thing is that both cyclists and motorists break laws for precisely the same reason - to get to their destination faster. The difference is that cyclists can't speed, and we all agree that it's very dangerous for motorists to blow through stops and red lights (other people tend to die or be seriously injured when that happens). So a lot of motorists speed and generally don't blow through stops and red lights. Cyclists can't speed, and a lot of them treat stops as yields. But every time we have this conversation, the motorists point to cyclists that don't stop at lights/signs and say that all cyclists disobey the laws. Really, most *people* disobey the traffic laws in Michigan. We can either agree to not complain about the other, or agree to complain equally. I think we need more enforcement all the way around.

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 9:59 p.m.

I just wish motorists would stop killing cyclists. Cyclists aren't out there killing motorists.

MIKE

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:22 p.m.

Interesting. I've done my own version of this, but it's bikes I watch. I've found that 88% of them either don't stop a lights or signs, white line (pass stopped vehicles illegally), ride on the wrong side of the street, ride on sidewalks, and swerve across traffic. It looks like both sides have their faults, and neither has the right to complain about the other.

KJMClark

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:59 p.m.

This is just terrible. At least Phil was doing something he loved, with someone he loved, in a beautiful place. He lived a good life and was a model for many of us. I don't see any reason to think the truck driver did anything other than driving dangerously and failing to yield. Just in case people are missing it, there is no car or light truck driver that would have survived that crash, either. You can see the truck here: <a href="http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_18299879" rel='nofollow'>http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_18299879</a>.

alan

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:56 p.m.

I am shocked that anyone would suggest that the victim is responsible. He clearly had the right of way. I am reminded of this just days after the driver who killed my former colleague, Bill Petry, was acquitted of a similar thing. Bill was an avid lifelong cyclist and the most careful I have known. He was one of the finest human beings I have ever met, dedicated to his students and his mission of peace. To have a life lost in an instant because of inattentiveness or disregard is inexcusable. <a href="http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20110608/NEWS01/106080349/Former-police-officer-found-not-guilty-cyclist-s-death" rel='nofollow'>http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20110608/NEWS01/106080349/Former-police-officer-found-not-guilty-cyclist-s-death</a>

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.

Unfortunately, there are no significant penalties for killing someone with a motor vehicle in this country. If it is a cyclist (motorized or non-motorized)that is killed, the automobile driver in question is rarely even charged with anything, let alone tried or convicted of anything whatsoever. Until the perps start receiving significant jail time, nothing will change, unfortunately. There are no consequences for doing the crime, and this particular incident was clearly a crime.

Ron Granger

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:39 p.m.

@David: &quot;Maybe we need to all stop, take a breath and remember that the roads that were designed for motor vehicle traffic now include bicyclists, joggers, etc. in greater numbers.&quot; -- Actually, the pedestrians, horses and bicycles came first. Cars later. Many drivers forget that.

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:23 p.m.

...and paved roads were initially developed for bicycles! Bicycles were a status symbol in the very early 20th century (the Wright brothers made enough money building custom bicycles to build aircraft in their spare time!). The League of American Wheelmen was instrumental in getting roads to be paved (for cyclists) prior to mass-produced automobiles even existing.

obviouscomment

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:06 p.m.

@Joe &amp; @OLDTIMER3 From what I've seen, most bicyclists are not riding to get to work, school, etc...usually they are riding for recreation, whereas most drivers are driving to get somewhere...work, school, appointments, etc. So it seems reasonable to me that drivers (while they should always be responsible) would normally be in a hurry and not interested or even irritated if they are expected to drive 10-20mph below the speed-limit so that others can have a leisurely ride. There are so many beautiful areas that have bike paths or bike lanes that riders could easily use, but it seems they continue to feel that they should ride down 2-lane country roads with no shoulder and everyone else should have to accommodate them by driving slower and, in the end, being late to whatever appointment they were headed to. It would be courteous of the bikers to use areas specifically provided for them, and if they must drive in the road it would be a nice gesture if they would simply move over or stop out of the way when there is traffic instead of holding up a line of cars for miles. Yes, drivers shouldn't react with rage, but bikers should do what they can to prevent it by not using their &quot;rights&quot; to irritate others.

obviouscomment

Thu, Jun 23, 2011 : 3:13 p.m.

I'm not talking about paved shoulders, I'm talking about bike lanes, that seem to be growing ever popular through Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor. Why do you have to go from Chelsea to Ann Arbor on your bike? Anyways, I'm done with this pointless argument with you. I have better things to do than waste my time defending my personal opinion that I chose to share in an open forum.

KJMClark

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 5:52 p.m.

OC - Should the recreational motorists only be allowed to use the non-busy roads you designate? Should bicyclists only be allowed to use the non-busy roads you designate? The state legislature is the one that gets to decide that, and they decided all non-expressway roads. Who are you to put yourself above the elected legislature? If you think the bicyclists have other options, you don't do much biking. What's the route between downtown Ann Arbor and downtown Chelsea that won't tick off *any* motorists? Keep in mind that cyclists aren't legally supposed to use paved shoulders. You can take that up with the legislature too. Sharing the road means using the road in a way that's safe for everyone. Your personal convenience has nothing to do with it. And get on a bike sometime and see if you can &quot;clearly see there is a line of traffic behind them&quot;. I'm one of the few cyclists I know who has a rear-view mirror, *and* can maintain a line while looking over my shoulder, and I can *never* see more than two cars back.

obviouscomment

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 5:11 p.m.

@tracyann I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough. I meant to include exercise as a &quot;leisure activity&quot;...and why can't exercise be done on a bike bath or a bike lane? @John B Ok we all get your point as you've posted this comment like 5 times. Actually roads were created for transportation and whatever the most popular form of transportation was at the time of their invention. But what is the most common form of transportation in the US right now? Automobiles. @KJMClark You must live in more of an urban/city area. Yes I agree that more people in those areas are riding to the store or work. In my comment I referenced country roads. Also, as I stated before, I'm sorry that I didn't mention exercise and leisurely rides. And your question is exactly my point...why DO bicyclists choose roads with traffic for exercise or leisure (a great example would be Textile Rd between Carpenter and Whittaker in Ypsilanti...I've often times encountered bicyclists on the other side of hills when I'm going the posted speed limit - 45)? And I do not think that RVs, people hauling boats, people driving on vacation, people headed to a park, etc should be off the road, because that's the only place they can be. But bicyclists have other options and choose to ride in the road and hold up traffic. I guess my ultimate point would be: &quot;Share the road&quot; doesn't only apply to drivers, it also applies to bicyclists and that means that whatever courtesy I show by getting over when I can for a cyclist should be returned to me by cyclists getting over when they can clearly see there is a line of traffic behind them or traffic on the other side of the road that will keep me from being able to safely pass them. And that there are plenty of other places for cyclists to ride besides roads with lots of traffic and no bike lanes.

KJMClark

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 6:26 p.m.

That's funny, because from what I've seen, most cyclists I see *are* driving their bikes to work, school, groceries, etc. Most of the others are trying to get some exercise, not a &quot;leisurely ride&quot;. The leisurely ride folks are mostly in parks. Think about it a bit. Why would someone out for a joy ride use a road with a lot of motorists? Not much joy in that. And are you saying we should kick all the RVs, people hauling boats, people driving on vacation, people headed to a park, off the roads? Who do *you* think should be &quot;allowed&quot; to use the roads? The legislature has already looked at this, and decided the cyclists have the same right to be there as you do.

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:10 p.m.

Paved roads were developed for bicycles! Go back and do the research. Bicycles were a status symbol in the very early 20th century (the Wright brothers made enough money building custom bicycles to build aircraft in their spare time!). The League of American Wheelmen was instrumental in getting roads to be paved (for cyclists) prior to mass-produced automobiles even existing.

tracyann

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 3:07 p.m.

Many people also bicycle as a form of exercise and bike paths are not conducive to this kind of riding. Where else should they ride so they don't inconvenience you? Furthermore, I highly doubt many cyclists are out there riding simply to &quot;irritate others&quot;. I'm not a cyclist but what I think is irritating is when people think their &quot;right&quot; to the road in a car usurps the &quot;right&quot; of those on bikes.

Pika

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:26 p.m.

Horrible news! I'm so sorry. My condolences to his family. I'm actually very surprised. The Boulder area is generally more bike friendly than Ann Arbor. Wow! Drivers and riders alike need to pay attention to this. RIP

Kathy Dubin Flynn

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:19 p.m.

My deepest condolences to all the Howreys. This horrible, but as Mark said, there is comfort in the fact that Phil went quickly, while doing what he loved best. Re the '70's: I remember the helmets. Love to you all.

Doug Dubin

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:02 p.m.

My three siblings and I grew up with the 4 Howrey kids in Ann Arbor. They lived several houses down the street from ours and we rode bikes together every day in the spring, summer and fall in the mid-70s. We all knew Phil and remember him as a great dad who shared his passion for cycling with his family and friends. Our sincere condolences to the entire Howrey family. -Doug Dubin.

Wolf's Bane

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:36 p.m.

If you have tendency to lose your cool behind the wheel, please seek therapy. Death is very final and no one should ever have to live with the knowledge of killing another human being because of rage.

dexterreader

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:32 p.m.

First, and foremost, this is a sad story as Michael noted. My condolences to his family. In addition to reminding those of us &quot;behind the wheel&quot; to share the road, I would like to remind those of you &quot;behind the handlebars&quot; to also do your part. Living in Dexter, I encounter a lot of bicyclists on a regular basis. I can't tell you how many I have seen who do not stop for red lights or stop signs. They may look to see if it's clear, but they barely slow down before just cycling through them. If they want to share the road, shouldn't they also be obeying the same traffic laws as vehicles? Or am I mistaken in that thought?

genericreg

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:33 p.m.

all car driver always obey traffic law, never speed.

Dalex64

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:26 p.m.

This driver has a history of aggression against bicyclists. With his past, a prosecutor might have a better chance of a conviction of manslaughter or more.

genericreg

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:18 p.m.

push someone in traffic on purpose with hand - murder. push someone in traffic on purpose with truck - misdemeanor.

David

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 11:33 a.m.

First, the loss of this man's life is a tragedy. Second, reading some of the comments makes me wonder. I drive in Ann Arbor every day. Yesterday at Huron Pkway and Plymouh Rd. I watched a woman pushing a 3 wheeled stroller jog into the crosswalk when the light was green. The stroller was occupied and the woman seemed obivious. I see bicyclists go thu red lights, stop signs, have close calls with pedestrians, etc.(Sociopath on a bike?) Pedestrians who walk in fromt of vehicles that have the green light or better yet just come out into traffic from between cars.(Sociopath on legs) Maybe we need to all stop, take a breath and remember that the roads that were designed for motor vehicle traffic now include bicyclists, joggers, etc. in greater numbers. Is there an easy answer, I doubt it. Ann Arbor has put bike lanes on a lot of streets. They did that by narrowing the traffic lanes vehicles are in. So let me see the traffic volume that has tripled in the last 25 years now drives in lanes that bring everyone closer together. It is too easy for all of us to &quot;group&quot; people. As we point the finger at the various &quot;sociopaths&quot; in our society, please remember that 3 fingers are pointing back at you. May the man's family find peace in the memories at some point

KJMClark

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 5:43 p.m.

Eyeheart, Deb - sorry, but you're both still wrong. The roads are designed to be used by many different kinds of traffic. The fact that they aren't designed *only* for bicycle use doesn't mean they were designed so bicycles couldn't use them. In reality, they aren't designed only for motorcycles only, or Smart cars only, or compact sedans only either, were they? They're mostly designed for everything from large trucks down to bicycles - that is, all legal road users. (Some roads have weight restrictions so they're designed for a certain weight vehicle down.) Yes, Washtenaw *is* designed to be usable by bicycle. I've biked on Washtenaw, including through the US-23 interchange, many times. It was perfectly usable by bike. Duh. Not a lot of fun, I wasn't biking there for fun, but it was certainly usable. Really, you want to take up your argument with the 50 state legislatures, which have all given bicyclists the same rights to use non-expressway roads as all other road users, and AASHTO, the national transportation engineering organization, which makes it clear that ordinary roads *are* designed to be usable for biking. Good luck with that.

deb

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 10:30 p.m.

If you were to go back and see how many roads wee paved from the first 20 years of bicycle leadership were paved and compare it to the last 111, you would see the overall development was for cars

deb

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.

Kjm- and your wrong. The wikipedia article you cited does not say anything like this. It just says that automobile enthusiast replaced bicyclists as the main advocates. This says nothing about the development of asphalt and concrete roads. Those roads, through testing, are developed for cars. No one tests the life expectancy of a road by how many bicycles go over it. bi derp derperty derp Look this is from your article, and: At the turn of the twentieth century, interest in the bicycle began to wane in the face of increasing interest in automobiles. Other groups took the lead in the Good Roads Movement. As the automobile was developed and gained momentum, organizations developed such cross-county projects as the coast-to-coast east–west Lincoln Highway 1913

EyeHeartA2

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.

Phillycheesesteak. Please stop, take a breath and think. Do you really think Washtenaw Ave, or 99% of the streets in Ann Arbor were designed for....bikes? Really? If they were designed for bikes, they would look a heck of a lot different, don't you think? Do you think they would be as wide as they are if they were desiged for bikes? Would the roadbed be as deep as it is? They were designed for... wait for it.....cars and trucks.

leaguebus

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:18 p.m.

It does not matter who the roads were developed for, a sociopath on a bike is no threat to anyone except himself. The bottom line is that if a cyclist is careless, they eventually pay the price. It makes no sense when behind the wheel of a large vehicle to get mad enough to &quot;show that bicyclist one thing or another&quot;. I ride every day all year round and follow all the rules of the road just as I was a car. But I still get honks and middle fingers just because I am there.

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:07 p.m.

Paved roads were developed for bicycles! Go back and do the research. Bicycles were a status symbol in the very early 20th century (the Wright brothers made enough money building custom bicycles to build aircraft in their spare time!). The League of American Wheelmen was instrumental in getting roads to be paved (for cyclists) prior to mass-produced automobiles even existing.

PhillyCheeseSteak

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 3:28 p.m.

David, Please stop, take a breath, and remember that roads were designed long before the invention of motor vehicles! Motor vehicles do not own the roads.

KJMClark

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:24 p.m.

No, Deb, the pavement was put there for cyclists. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_roads_movement" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_roads_movement</a> After the first roads were paved, people driving the newly invented automobile started to use them too, and pushed for more pavement.

deb

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:14 p.m.

The development of asphalt and concrete roadways was not for horse and buggies, it was for the automobile. If you want to go way back, paths started by people walking on them. . .

genericreg

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:14 p.m.

&quot;One of the most frequent comments has been an variation on the theme of: &quot;The roads were built for automobiles.&quot; The problem: It isn't so. There's no basis for that statement in law or in American history. Law? There's not a state in the Union that reserves the use of the roads for autos only -- with the exception of limited-access highways&quot; History? Here's a tidbit from Suite101.com: In May, 1880, riding clubs and manufacturers met in Newport, Rhode Island to form the League of American Wheelmen. <a href="http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/traffic/2011/04/roads_were_built_for_cars_not.html" rel='nofollow'>http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/traffic/2011/04/roads_were_built_for_cars_not.html</a>

Bababooey

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:13 p.m.

Roads were actually developed for horse and wagon/buggy travel.

Joyce Williams

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 11:22 a.m.

This is very sad. My thoughts are with the family. Unfortunately, this why my husband and I gave up riding on roads years ago. The sad part is that most people have ridden bikes as children and some adults forget once they start driving what it's like to be on a bike and be vulnerable.

Bcar

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 11:21 a.m.

RIP Phil... The driver SHOULD be charged with manslaughter, but as in 99.9999% of these cases, it will somehow be a &quot;shared responsibility&quot; for the crash and he'll get off with a slap on the wrist. His poor wife having had to see that... ;( Yet another reason I stick with mtn biking, no idiot drivers who are too busy texting, talking, not caring. Some people say it is safe to ride around A2?? Maybe waaay outside of Ann Arbor, but anywhere in the city? It is downright scary, esp with the out of state and out of country students... Don't know how many times I've seen close calls with cars and bikes. Share the road...

Amy Lesemann

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 4:06 p.m.

...and share the path! I have been nearly wiped out by mountain bikers on paths that were clearly marked &quot;no bikes&quot;. This was esp. scary when my kids were little. Those mountain bikes could kill a small child, and they'd come tearing down a hill - a path we'd chosen specifically because it was &quot;no bikes&quot;. And, frankly, even when it's a &quot;shared trail&quot;, we generally skip it, because it's just too dangerous for people on foot. Bikers come around corners and they honestly can't see us until they're right on top of us - shared only works in a very few situations. Generally, shared means it's a biker's trail. Ever see one of those gigantic slow downs bikers pull in the middle of traffic? I don't think it wins them any friends...and my husband bikes to U of M most days. That kind of smug obnoxiousness does the cause no good at all.

OLDTIMER3

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 11:08 a.m.

Everyone is in a hurry nowdays it seems. I have been almost hit head on by people swerving into my lane to go around a bycyclist rather than slow down and wait for traffic to clear. My heart goes out to the Howery family.

snoopdog

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 3:11 a.m.

I think Michael's words are too strong. As a serious bicycle/motorcycle rider and runner over the past 30 years, I have found that the roadway's have become far too congested. When my oldest was born almost 25 years ago, I retired my motorcycle and bicycle(from paved roadways) with input from my former wife. She stated she did not want to raise a child by herself. Since then, road traffic has tripled and it has become even more dangerous. I have lost two friends in the past 25 years who were killed in biking accidents and I decided that I would not become one of them. This story is very very sad, Eugene was a man doing what he loved best, I hope is family can take comfort in that. He lived and died in darn near the most beautiful land this world has ever seen. RIP Eugene ! Good Day

snapshot

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 5:09 a.m.

Ann Arbor is full ofdrivers who endanger bicyclists on purpose.

John B.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 5:39 p.m.

Paved roads were developed for bicycles! Go back and do the research. Bicycles were a status symbol in the very early 20th century (the Wright brothers made enough money building custom bicycles to build aircraft in their spare time!). The League of American Wheelmen was instrumental in getting roads to be paved (for cyclists) prior to mass-produced automobiles even existing.

obviouscomment

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:51 p.m.

Thank you for getting off the road. There are many more places to leisurely ride bikes that do not have the hazard of automobile traffic.

DDS

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:26 a.m.

Some motorists think &quot;I have the right of way here....&quot; when they should be thinking &quot; what is this cyclist going to do, I better slow down&quot;. My experience in Ann Arbor and surrounding area is that nearly all motorists pull way over or slow down when they pass a cyclist. Every now and then there is some jerk who thinks like it sounds like this trucker was thinking. It would be nice if the police would give some hefty penalties to these people.

jeanne

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:56 a.m.

I was riding past this same intersection the following day of this terrible, unnecessary incident. Boulder County and many folks reading this post in Colorado have commented, feeling the loss. There is such a massive community of cycling here in Colorado ( I currently speak of Boulder County) that one would think eventually there would be a wee bit more consideration, passion, ease of anger when it comes to passing or encountering cyclists. It truly is no different here. I am 55, female, and I take the same risk every time I go out on the pavement. Drivers that exhibit this anger, frustration, lack of humane sensitivity toward cyclists... are beyond my comprehension. I am not naive, I take the risk, but I have lost faith in mankind for sure. Its a huge risk we take, and I cannot imagine the grief of Mr. Howrey's family....right now. I have read about the driver's previous citation, and that is even harder to stomach in this tragic, awful incident. Peace be with you &quot;Phil&quot; from the beautiful places we ride in Colorado, Im happy you did ride here.....

godsbreath64

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:52 a.m.

Hey, Micheal. Thanks a lot. Seriously After your comment, I have nothing to say. Our deepest condolences, are not alone.

Bob Martel

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:34 a.m.

I've been riding for about a year and a half around the Ann Arbor and Chelsea area and I must report that I've been more than pleased with the motorist/bicyclist interface so far. Aside from one weird episode with a motorcyclist (of all type of drivers!) everyone has shown respect for each other for which I thank you all. Let's keep our heads about us and make it home safely every day.

KJMClark

Wed, Jun 22, 2011 : 12:45 a.m.

Yeah, I think it is slowly getting better. There's a big argument in the biking world about whether bike lanes really help. The safety studies say they largely don't make a lot of difference, except that they encourage cyclists to get off of sidewalks, which are much more dangerous for cyclists (a point that a lot of motorists can't comprehend.) So bike lanes end up making things safer for cyclists and pedestrians - if the cyclists move to the bike lanes. But the political types see things differently. There are other studies that suggest that places with more bike lanes have more biking (hard to know which way the causation runs). And places that have more biking have fewer crashes per mile for cyclists. More biking tends to make things safer for cyclists, probably because motorists treat them better when they know someone who bikes and see people biking on a regular basis. I think we still have problems with dangerous passing, and to a lesser extent driving in bike lanes, but I do think it's better than it was in the 80s &amp; 90s. It doesn't hurt that vehicle miles traveled has dropped due to the recession, and hasn't reached the previous peak again. Fewer cars on the road makes it a little more sane for everyone else.

Michael K.

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:07 a.m.

This is very sad. I am very sorry for the family. I used to be a very serious cyclist and triathlete. As a &quot;semi professional&quot; athlete, I often trained for 6 hours per day, every day of the week. I don't think there was a single day that when I was riding where I did not feel the effects of an angry, distracted, or just plain ignorant driver who &quot;almost&quot; cost me my life. Given this drivers previous conviction, this event illustrates the very thin line between a driver's antagonistic actions on the road - to other drivers and to cyclists - and outright murder. I know that is a very strong statement based on a lot of speculation. I am not accusing anyone here. But I do hope every driver who reads this will mediaite on the potential consequeces of their own aggressive and angry driving (myself included.) We are all lucky that this type of incident (I won't call it an accident) has not happened to us, in cases where our own antagonistic behaviour could so easily have led to similar consequences. My heart is with the family, I am sorry for them. I only hope some good can come from this, in improved driver education and improved safety for other cyclists.

Dave Derksen

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 11:27 p.m.

As a long time cycling advocate and user of many different types of motorvehicles I can empathize with both sides of this issue. I also remember selling bicycle goods to Phil and Frank and many other daily riders. These are not the riders that ignored the laws, they would actually have &quot;talks&quot; with others that were making a bad name for cyclists. The vulnerability of cyclists is worse than it ever was but that didn't stop him from enjoying his ride time. Here is a link to some bicycle law, the roads are legally for many types of vehicles and we all need to start thinking about our fellow man instead of the next 5 minutes of our brief existences. <a href="http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(jsys4h55zdrzr455oow3bp45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-257-660a" rel='nofollow'>http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(jsys4h55zdrzr455oow3bp45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&amp;objectname=mcl-257-660a</a>

obviouscomment

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:49 p.m.

@Steve I do not condone irresponsible driving of automobiles but I do think that riders should take responsibility for their own actions too. Just because you are a responsible biker doesn't mean that all or even the majority of bikers are responsible. It seems there are too many bikers that feel that because they are more vulnerable that it is the responsibility of the drivers to watch out for them, when really it should be the other way around. You are responsible for your own safety in whatever form of transportation you choose.

Wolf's Bane

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 12:38 p.m.

Well summarized and I agree, this is an incident, not an accident as of yet.

Steve

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:27 a.m.

First and foremost, my condolences to the family. @ YouWhine Let me say that as a cyclist I stop at every stop sign, indicate every turn and do my best to use as little of the road as possible. I agree that there are many bikers out there who behave recklessly as if they are immune to harm. But please keep in mind the risks for each party. Being reckless or inattentive while in control of 2000 lbs is a whole lot different than 200 Lbs at the same speed.

YouWhine

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 2:09 a.m.

My condolences to this man's family. It sounds as though he was a safe rider who was doing everything right. That said, I would like to point out that there are plenty of cyclists out there who can be very antagonistic and reckless as well. For you to always blame the 'driver's' is either ignorant or irresponsible. There are far too many cyclists out there who like to remember the traffic laws only when ithey suit the cyclist... and disregard them the rest of the time. Safety is the responsibility of EVERYBODY out there on the road. Drivers need to recognize the vulnerability of cyclists on the road. Cyclists need to remember that traffic laws apply to EVERYBODY. While nothing can bring Phil back, it would be nice if his tragic death could lead to greater awareness to keep everybody safe.

Betty

Tue, Jun 21, 2011 : 1:37 a.m.

Wow great comment. You said it best...Thank you