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Posted on Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:11 a.m.

GOP-backed bill would discriminate against legal residents, Ann Arbor lawmaker says

By Ryan J. Stanton

State Rep. Jeff Irwin says a piece of legislation headed his committee's way in the state House might be best dubbed the "Show Me Your Papers" bill.

But calling it the "Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act," he argues, is a slap in the face to hard-working officers who protect and serve every day.

Jeff_Irwin_on_bridge_headshot.jpg

Jeff Irwin

Irwin, D-Ann Arbor, has come out in opposition to House Bill 4305, which he claims would unfairly discriminate against legal immigrants and other legal residents by requiring them to prove their immigration status upon request without justification.

"When people come to Michigan to legally work and live, we should be welcoming them with open arms — not slamming the door in their face," Irwin said in a statement.

The Republican-backed bill would require anyone to prove their citizenship when questioned by law enforcement. It also would require a person to carry an alien registration document with them at all times or be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by both imprisonment and fine.

The bill, which has been referred to the House Judiciary Committee, has not yet been scheduled for a hearing. However, Irwin said he wants his constituents to know such an extreme bill would expose residents and local governments to unnecessary burdens.

"Our local police have more pressing matters than demanding every non-white person prove their immigration status," said Irwin, a member of the Judiciary Committee. "With projected revenue-sharing cuts and local resources already stretched to the limit, now is not the time to be adding an unfunded mandate to local governments."

The bill is sponsored by state Rep. Dave Agema, R-Grandville. Agema has 16 Republican members of the House co-sponsoring his legislation.

Citing statistics from the Federation for American Immigration Reform, Agema argues in a statement posted on his website that illegal immigration is costing Michigan hundreds of millions of dollars in health care, education, welfare, corrections and other human services.

"Illegal immigration is a security issue, a jobs issue, and a fiscal issue," Agema says on his website. "This legislation is consistent with federal law and protects individual civil rights. Preserving our borders and calling to task those who are in this country illegally is something we owe to ourselves and to our future generations."

Agema said his bill would allow law enforcement personnel to determine the immigration status of individuals when an officer has lawfully stopped, detained or arrested them for a violation. The stipulations regarding legal stops prevent racial profiling, he said.

Agema said his bill also would require verification of legal status for anyone over 18 before that person receives welfare; protects police officers acting in good faith while seeking proof of immigration status; prohibits state agencies from adopting policies that restrict enforcement of federal immigration laws; and allows individuals to seek legal recourse if any official or state agency restricts enforcement of federal immigration law.

"The millions of dollars spent on people who are in this state illegally isn't sustainable," Agema said. "This bill puts a valuable tool in the hands of our law enforcement officers who work to keep us safe and keep our society secure."

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Ryan J. Stanton covers government and politics for AnnArbor.com. Reach him at ryanstanton@annarbor.com or 734-623-2529.

Comments

REBBAPRAGADA

Fri, Mar 4, 2011 : 5:24 p.m.

The proposed bill appears to be unconstitutional. I had arrived here in 1986 and had trusted in God to make that decision and have believed that this country and people also trust in God. But, this nation, the Congress, or the State cannot pass a Law that would give me a status for an eternal life. If I have arrived, I must also depart. I need a document that would give me permission to enter the God's Kingdom while my mortal remains remain as a Permanent resident of The United States of America.

trespass

Fri, Mar 4, 2011 : 1:06 a.m.

The bill says that an officer must accept a valid driver's license or state ID. How many adults do not have one of those?

Plubius

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 5:28 p.m.

What a bunch of sheep! The notion that we need to show papers to an officer of the law upon request is utter nonsense - and a small step away from the jackboots on your neck.

Dexterdriver

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 6:41 p.m.

Hey, big surprise for you....You do have to show "papers" to a law officer upon request! Let's see you tell a cop, "hey Gestapo, I don't need to show you no damn papers." Did you ever have Civics class?

Matt Cooper

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 4:50 a.m.

"The stipulations regarding legal stops prevent racial profiling, he said." In case this moronic "law-maker" doesn't already know it, racial profiling still goes on today. Yes, right here in good old Washtenaw county, and in his county as well I'm sure. And since when do we expect our local police departments to be responsible for federal immigration law enforcement anyway? They don't have enough to do already?

Nomanland

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:14 a.m.

If does not say it in this report. But. I saw the news. And the cost will be. 3.8 billions dollars. To the state so. I'm againgst this. Stupid. Law

nicole

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:03 a.m.

I'm a citizen and I have to produce ID all the time, even to get a prescription or cash a check. If people that are guests in my country have such a problem with producing ID, so that we know who should be here and who shouldn't, then they should go back home to their country. Have some respect for my country please and follow the rule of law. I would be expected to do that in your country. That guy who blew through the red light at Eisenhower not too long ago, going 100 mph was an illegal with a prior record of poor driving. Maybe if he'd had to produce ID, he would have been sent back before that. We have a right as American citizens to protect our kids and families from people in the country illegally. Sorry liberals, but we as citizens have a right to feel this way and to protect our families.

HaeJee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 6:28 p.m.

As a citizen of the U.S., my family and I would be profiled and viewed as foreigners due to the prejudice and ignorance that exists in this country. I guess if I was born a part of the "majority (white)", I could have the same narrow view as you. Producing an license does not PROVE you are a legal resident, you would need to produce a passport or birth certificate.

Dexterdriver

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 4:02 p.m.

You are so correct. Other replies indicate their writers are the "victim promoters" who distrust the lawful system we live by and assume the police are out to get all non-whites. This is patently false and shows a real ignorance of what is happening in this threatened society.

Matt Cooper

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 4:55 a.m.

Are you even remotely familiar with the term "racial profiling"? Do you think for one minute that the cops would stop white, anglo-saxon protestant folks like you and I and ask to see their immigration papers? No. They won't. They will however, stop and ask every person with black or brown skin for their papers. And if they can't prove they are US citizens, even if they were born here, guess what? Off to jail with 'em. Stinks of Apartheid South Africa if you ask me. And the really scary part is that conservatives like you think it's perfectly okay, and totally justifiable to use that kind of discrimination against people of color because we "have to protect our families".

Nomanland

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:23 a.m.

Yea. He was an illegal he should be deported but. Let me ask you a question are you willing to. Put you passport in your wallet or birth certificate to prove legal status. So what. Happen's. If you lost. You wallet with you birth certificate. And. Let's say. Some terrorist get it.....what's. Gonna. Happen. We. Currently. Have the right to keep our personal documents at home not in our wallet

Nomanland

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 1:34 a.m.

Michigan need this. Kind of law. But now it's not the. Time our state is broke.....now. If this law pass 3.8 billion is the. Cost. Think. Think we. Will pay more taxes and more problems The state. Need to focus on more important things

jcj

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:03 a.m.

And where did you come up with the 3.8 billion as the cost?

Brittanicus

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 1:18 a.m.

Instead we should deploying the National Guard on the border, US federal troops or even recruiting an extra 5000 US Border Patrol agents; it would restrict illegal entry. But Decades of neglect, lack of concern of the legislators playing into the hands of lobbyists for campaign contribution have left America open to the invasion, and ordinary citizens legal residents open to attack by terrorists. For Americans who believe in the "Rule of Law" it is past time, to rescind laws based on "Political Correctness" before it ends in a massacre like the 9/11Trade Center mass murders. We need to permanently implement E-Verify as it is essential of removing illegal workers from being hired by employers. The General Accounting Office offered a thorough analysis of the E-Verify program, with numerous hints as to what employers may view from this program in the future. The GAO describes a Driver's License pilot program that is on the ongoing agenda early this year. The program is seeking to incorporate Driver's License data into E-Verify, which could be used to substantiate the license number and expiration date when presented in a B listing on the I-9 employment verification document to identify irregularities. However, "State privacy laws (being politically correct again) may interfere with an expansion of this program. This report indicates that the pilot program does—NOT-- integrate the use of photographs, so as for now it seems unlikely that E-verify photo-matching will expand to include driver's licenses, unless US citizens demand it. The report also describes plans to allow persons to "lock" their Social Security number within E-Verify in an effort to reduce ID fraud. Now patriotic Americans who have not been mentally programmed by Liberal Progressives should contact their Representative in Washington at 202-224-3121 or at State level.

Brittanicus

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 1:15 a.m.

The United States is under tremendous financial strain from catering to corporate employers, farmers and agricultural industry. Americans are failing to witness they are paying immeasurable amount of dollars. Last estimate at just the federal level was 113 billion dollars a year, which could go towards paying a massive debt to Communist China. Another 60 billion dollars is transferred by illegal nationals on average of leaving the country to foreign banks. That 1 dollar paid in federal and State taxes by foreign nationals, receives a return in fraudulent tax rebates and other. The future holds massive irreversible overpopulation, eroding infrastructure and federal payouts for education of the offspring of illegal alien workers, known as the 14th Amendment provision. The birthright citizenship for babies may not be amended by the Supreme Court, but the parents can be deported. They owe allegiance to another nation and should not be given any preferences; no pardons. Hospitals, schools and other entities should have a right, to report data how many foreign children are currently in the education system and applying for US birth Certificates as birthright babies. It's unfeasible not to pass on the multitude of information about the expenditures for free health care, education and the corruption and collusion in Washington regarding illegal immigration. Your Questions and answers can be found at NumbersUSA and Judicial Watch. The alarm should go out to every State, which simply remains unresponsive to its legal population and not following the example of Arizona as a foremost policing State. That illegal immigrant in the State of Arizona are leaving in large numbers, looking for another State to settle down and begin applying for food stamps, Medicaid and all freebies to soak your municipal and state treasuries.We reserve the right to halt another amnesty, the Dream Act (another amnesty) Sanctuary Cities and reduce and stop to a trickle any more immigration.

johnnya2

Fri, Mar 4, 2011 : 1:49 a.m.

I cant wait until immigrants no longer do the jobs american lazy ass wont do. Food prices will skyrocket and then te right wing will be bitching and moaning .

Roadman

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:55 a.m.

The Dearborn Police Department has kept crime in a city that is largely immigrants down to extremely low levels by forging a good relationship with all members of the local community. There is no need for such a law in Dearborn. This proposed law is based upon a perception that immigrants are criminals and is being used by the GOP to exploit elements of the population who have an animus toward foreigners and minorities. Look at the KKK website and racial profiling is cited by that "American" group as government approval of bigotry and police officers are lauded as heroes of the white race. Ever hear of a situation where the Klan assaults a law enforcement officer or vice-versa? It just does happen; they respect each other too much. This propsed bill reeks of a racist intent.

L. C. Burgundy

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 11:21 p.m.

The poll is worded inaccurately. The requirement for the production of identification to law enforcement during a detainment, stop, or arrest is solely upon those who are non-citizens, who by federal law must carry such identification with them anyway.

macjont

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 9:21 p.m.

The officer may have the right to ask for id from anyone in the car, but we are under no obligation to produce it.

DonBee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:10 a.m.

By state law, you already have to produce ID (e.g. A driver's license) if you are stopped. The officer has the right to ask for ID from everyone in the vehicle.

Nomanland

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 10:20 p.m.

This new law it's so dummmmmmb I will not carry my birth certificate or passport to prove nothing so what I WAs born in California I'm brown I'm sure everytime I get pull Over the will ask for my documents that's so stupid so they gonna be looking for brown people instead of persons who kill our family's I mean. Yea they will get illegals but. At what price to our state can't the see our Michigan economy it's the worst ever. The bill also the bill say Michigan will lost 3.8 billion dollars if this law is passed.....they should consentrate in people jobs and economy not asking for people documents and. Yea let's be real people police has enough work with criminals and. Now. Republicans wanna put more on they'd shoulders....wake up Michigan people this bill will only divide or state and. Yea. We will end it up paying more taxes like always

jcj

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:01 a.m.

He said as he went to get his free medical care!

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 10:19 p.m.

Reading many of these comments makes one thing pretty clear: People who have never experienced racial profiling, either toward themselves or toward someone they love, have no appreciation for the potential harm that might result from this proposal. Quite applicable is the old saying (and I'm paraphrasing, I believe): "if you've experienced it, no explanation is necessary; if you have not, no explanation will suffice."

macjont

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:35 a.m.

Mike, it is to you my comment is addressed. But as I said, for some people, nothing will do.

Mike

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:15 a.m.

Come up with another way to find illegals without using profiling and I'll be open to it. Check little old ladies like at the airport?

DonBee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:05 a.m.

I deal with it 1 or 2 weeks a month when I work outside of the US. You either learn to be nice and fit in, or not to work in that country. It is not fun, it is not right, but don't think it is worse here than elsewhere. That is not to say it is good here.

dogpaddle

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 10:18 p.m.

To Dexterdriver and others on the same page: two things:, one: please stop questioning our President's citizenship. Not only is it disrespectful, it's just plain silly. Last time I checked, the Great State of Hawaii was indeed a state. We get it. You don't like him and I am guessing didn't vote for him. This is a free and I do mean free country (why you have the First Amendment right to question his citizenship, silly or not) and free in that in just over another year, you have the right to try to unseat him. Two: if you think we should all have to prove our citizenship at all times, I have a question.  How do I  do that?  I don't believe a driver's license is proof of citizenship (it certainly won't get you back into this country should you venture to Windsor). I happen to be white (though I do have various European ethnic backgrounds in me) and I am guessing my Southern accent and blond hair and blue eyes will require nothing more than my MDL if I ever get stopped. But what if I had darker skin and darker hair and had been born in the exact same location as I was (another legitimate state just like Hawaii).  What should I have on me to prove I am a citizen? If one of my Lithuanian grandfathers (very blond - till he aged, very blue, very white, but with a heavy foreign accent) was still living, what would he need as someone who became a legal full citizen the legal way? Just curious.

jcj

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3 a.m.

The answer would be to along with height,weight, eye and hair color there be a spot on our license that states our status as citizens or not!

mun

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:18 p.m.

It's "illegal EMPLOYMENT," not "illegal IMMIGRATION." If American employers didn't hire undocumented nationals, they would not be coming here in the first place. We have a "keep out" sign at the border, but right next to it, a "help wanted" sign. Guess which one is being read.

jcj

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 2:54 a.m.

You can play the chicken or the egg game all you want. The fact is you can not deny that both the employer AND the illegal are wrong! And the illegals will always come.

Jimmy McNulty

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:15 p.m.

OK I was born in the US, so under this proposal what am I supposed to produce to prove it, since it would "require anyone to prove their citizenship when questioned by law enforcement?" I do not usually carry my passport and my birth certificate is in the filing cabinet. I am usually conservative leaning, but I think this bill goes too far.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:21 a.m.

"I do not intend to give an officer any reason to believe I am an immigrant." I'm curious: what apparently legal or illegal action would give a police officer probable cause to believe that someone might be an illegal alien? Good Night and Good Luck

Mike

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:09 a.m.

How about a drivers license Jimmy?

L. C. Burgundy

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 11:12 p.m.

There is no requirement in this law for citizens to carry identification, nor does this law address those individuals. It only addresses individuals who are not in the US legally and verification of immigration status when lawfully detained or arrested (not "questioned" as in the post above - that's too broad) if they do not present a form of identification that is presumed to show legal presence in the United States. As it is federal law for such non-citizens to carry such identification with them anyway, the state law doesn't really add anything more to that.

Mick52

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 10:02 p.m.

I was born in the US too. I do not have a passport. I don't carry my birth certificate. I do not fear this law because I do not intend to give an officer any reason to believe I am an immigrant.

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.

this isn't conservatism, it's fascism.

BHarding

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:43 p.m.

@TopCat: I think your question about doing something more productive should have been directed to state Rep. Dave Agema, who sponsored this unnecessary bill that Irwin now needs to respond to.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:26 p.m.

BHarding, good job!

Rork Kuick

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:43 p.m.

Some of you may be underestimating our ability to bias traffic stops. While checking speed of cars, most of which are going a little above the speed limit, I could simply stop only those that are slightly less white than I. Another chance is that if I see someone less white, I can follow them around until I find or invent some minor cause to stop them. Maybe I'll say they rolled through a stop, or failed to signal, or were weaving - it's so easy. The "lawfully" clause will not ensure no bias.

BHarding

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:28 p.m.

@Diane, I'm so white it hurts. I have my driver's license, but nothing else to prove that I'm not foreign-born. I know plenty of foreign-born without a discernible accent, and plenty of citizens with thick accents. Who do you think is going to be targeted? Our focus should be on the employers who employ desperate people, then over-work and under-pay them with the threat of deportation. Employees should be documented and if not, it is the EMPLOYER who should suffer the consequences.

jcj

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 2:48 a.m.

David is like an old 45 stuck on the same line.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:58 p.m.

David you keep saying that, people who brake laws are not good people!

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:24 p.m.

But they are good, upper class Americans!

julieswhimsies

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:26 p.m.

I just spoke with a friend who just returned from vacation in Mexico. She was shocked about the number of American companies who place ads for employment and post signs offering employment for businesses in this country. If American employers did not hire illegals, they would not be here. It would be a lot more "cost-effective" to prosecute the people who hire illegals. Our police officers have enough to do.

Dexterdriver

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 6:35 p.m.

I seriously doubt that the American companies are telling Mexicans to sneak across the border to seek employment with them. Companies do hire internationally.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:23 p.m.

Julie, Excellent Idea!!

Dorchester

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:24 p.m.

We need to protect our borders from those Canadians streaming across our borders and taking our jobs. I am sure the police will be able to know the difference between an American and a Canadian (their shoes). Papers please.

DonBee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:03 a.m.

Try going to Canada to work, even with a work permit. Talk about papers please. In Europe it is not unusual to be asked for papers when you are outside the normal tourist areas. I don't know how many times I was asked the last time I was working in Japan. Then there is Sweden. Look at their policies for immigration and citizenship.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:22 p.m.

Dorchester, eh?

David Cahill

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:28 p.m.

Wasn't something like this bill in the Arizona legislation that was struck down last summer by the courts?

Rork Kuick

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:27 p.m.

The question to be answered is how (when,where) to interdict illegals. Getting the employers is fine, but doesn't always work for lack of enforcement, and many folks are self-employed. So it would be nice to have additional points of interdiction. We don't want the schools to do it or the hospitals to do it (it's not their job), and I personally don't want the cops to do it for traffic stops (invites bias). "Upon receiving welfare" does seem like one point where we could check again. Another is for drivers licenses. We still won't catch everyone, but those might be reasonable additional points to attempt interdiction. Cops may then incidentally find some due to the abrupt rise in fake drivers licenses. I don't get Irwin's mandate problem, since we could just fail to enforce.

Rork Kuick

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 2:15 p.m.

David, it's your favorite subject, so please teach us how to practically get employer enforcement increased. I'm not against it, but I'm not expert on how to fix it. Got examples where it's working? I don't think it will catch everyone though, and maybe additional points of interdiction with fixed mechanisms for enforcement could help.

jcj

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 2:57 a.m.

"Wouldn't have anything to do with their status as the privileged class? Would it?" I don't know many lawn service companies that would be considered " the privileged class" Your argument is not only old it is baseless.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:55 p.m.

David it's because Liberals like you find it offensive. If I had my way when the employer got caught they would be fined out of biz, and then we would interview the illeagal employee/s and take his word as to what he was being paid and how long he worked for said company. Then the employer would have to make up the difference of pay based on average wages for said job, and when the employee has been properly paid for the work he performed he would be deported.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:22 p.m.

Rork, Why the lack of enforcement with employers? Wouldn't have anything to do with their status as the privileged class? Would it?

TheAlien

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:10 p.m.

When you get a green card you are required by law to carry it with you and show it to any law enforcement agent that would ask. Once you become a US Citizen, they take it away. So you only have a certificate that you cannot copy (it is illegal to do so) and that you cannot carry with you. Do all people born in the US carry their passport (or even have one) or birth certificate at all times?? how can you prove citizenship otherwise?

Rork Kuick

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:33 p.m.

The law (right now) says that drivers license or state personal identification card suffices. I admit I don't recall my legality being checked when I got a license, but maybe that's changed or I am forgetting. Help requested on that score.

jcj

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7 p.m.

@ Atticus F. "Things like "these people are here to suck up services and live off welfare" are vile shameful stereotypes, and have no place in a debate." I for one only ask that those here illegally do not receive free services and are deported. I expect that if we are going to have laws on the books they should be enforced or remove them. You can try to twist that into I am a racist and against anyone that does not look like me but you are sadly mistaken. Why don't we just open the borders and let everyone that would care to come here come with no strings attached? I have said numerous times punish both the employer and the illegal. My grandfather was not born in this country, BUT so far as I know came here legally and did not receive any handouts.

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:23 p.m.

the amount put back into the economy by virtual slave labor far exceeds the amount taken out via social benefits.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:32 p.m.

Right on jcj! My Grandfather also came to this great nation and never asked for a hand out. That is something I'm very proud of. And I'm only asking the same of everyone else who comes here.

Atticus F.

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:37 p.m.

Alot of the stereotypes being talked of in this thread are based in racism. Things like "these people are here to suck up services and live off welfare" are vile shameful stereotypes, and have no place in a debate. The truth is these things have been said about immigrants and minorities for years, going as far back as when my great grand parents came here from Italy, and somehow it's still tollerated as rational debate. The truth is that these policies are an assualt on the civil rights of all US citizens, and the first step to livng in a total police state.

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:01 p.m.

These policies are about just coughing up your ID.

arborani

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:42 p.m.

Hear, Hear.

arborani

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:37 p.m.

@David, Cash, Alan G and of course Congressman Irwin: RIGHT ON.

John Spieser

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:51 p.m.

The only way to make this law fair and constitutional is to apply it across the board, to every citizen, all the time.

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:57 p.m.

Real Constitutional issue with this one!

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:19 p.m.

Everyone except the employers! The privileged class!

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:28 p.m.

John it does apply to everyone, even I have to have papers to be in public.

Atticus F.

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:39 p.m.

...Which would open the door for police abuse, and an erosion of civil rights. You think it stinks nowadays when you lose your drivers license?.... Just wait until they can put you in jail for it!

mun

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:42 p.m.

It's the employer, stupid. The Mexicans are crossing the border because American employers will hire them. What do you think it is? Red Rover? All the anti-illegal folks need to point their guns at corporations who hire illegals to pay slave wages.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:18 p.m.

Careful mun, facts confuse them.

Cash

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:31 p.m.

Wow, the party of "small government" just keeps trying to make this a police state, eh? Show us your papers or else? Wow, sounds a lot like Nazi Germany.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:26 p.m.

Cash please read and reread the story, I know the facts keep getting in your way but you will sound as tho you have a clue. You canot be stopped just for the way that you look, and again like everyone else you will have to have your paper in order, that includes you and I. EVERYONE!

Dale

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:44 p.m.

Did you actually READ the story or the part that states an "officer has lawfully stopped, detained or arrested them for a violation"? I must have missed the part that allows for verification of status because of how you look! I will check the legislation again.......... NOPE not in there. Also there is a provision for verifying a persons legal status before receiving welfare is there something wrong with that also? Or maybe because "illegals are a small portion of any ethnic population" we should not care be concerned with the cost of providing them services because we as a state are flush with cash.

Cash

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:33 p.m.

If you interact with police a lot, you SHOULD have to show id. But you shouldn't interact with them unless you did something wrong. I mean, if you pass a cop on the street, he doesn't ask you for ID nor does he WANT to see it. They should not stop citizens who have not broken the law.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:04 p.m.

Cash you need to pick up a history book, this sounds nothing like Nazi Germany. I have to show ID anytime I inter-act with the police, way shoundn't everyone.

Cash

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:29 p.m.

Arrest folks who run the western Michigan blueberry farms, who as shown on tv news, hire illegals as well as their tiny children, to pick their berries. If they aren't hired, they wont' be here illegally. But as always Repubs won't stand up to the wealthy owners....they'd rather turn to the lowest paid, hardest working people in the state.

average joe

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:35 p.m.

Cash-"....as shown on tv news.." Well, there's proof if I ever seen it.... The story about this blueberry farm was so concocted to make the owner look bad. Did you know that the people who produced this "news" admitted later that they filmed some of it on a non-Michigan farm, including the images of a child picking berries?

Cash

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:34 p.m.

This Repub law doesn't go after them does it? WHY NOT???? It goes after the guy who is doing all the work, as always.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:10 p.m.

Cash as a Repub I say we should go after any company that hires illegals. Who you gonna blame now, I didn't hire any

Alan Goldsmith

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:29 p.m.

Since this is being pushed by the Republicans in Lansing, is our Republican Governor going to veto it, if it passes?

Alan Goldsmith

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:24 p.m.

"The Republican-backed bill would require anyone to prove their citizenship when questioned by law enforcement". So, state Rep. Dave Agema, I can trace my Goldsmith Family roots in Michigan back to 1832 and this proposal stinks. It's not based on economics, it's based on fear, racism, hate and you might as well burn the U.S. Constitution and turn this state into some third world backwater if I have to carry my birth certificate in case a police officer feels like questioning me without cause. Sounds like Agema would feel right at home in some third world dictatorship.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:17 p.m.

last year GE and Bank Of America paid no tax. Better cut them off from use of services. Right jcj?

jcj

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:47 p.m.

"It's not based on economics" I don't know where you learned your economics but I learned that when you have a group that uses services but contributes nothing to the cost of those services, that is a problem! I don't care if they come from the moon or the Vatican!

Dale

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:42 p.m.

Did you actually READ the story or the part that states an "officer has lawfully stopped, detained or arrested them for a violation"? I must have missed the part that allows for verification of status because of how you look! I will check the legislation again.......... NOPE not in there. Also there is a provision for verifying a persons legal status before receiving welfare is there something wrong with that also? Or maybe because "illegals are a small portion of any ethnic population" we should not care be concerned with the cost of providing them services because we as a state are flush with cash.

L. C. Burgundy

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:06 p.m.

The issue of immigrants possessing appropriate ID is already federal law and has been for quite some time. Non-issue unless you don't believe in immigration enforcement.

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:06 p.m.

True, but not the issue here.

HaeJee

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:02 p.m.

This may not be an inconvenience to the MAJORITY (whites) population, but as an foreign adoptee, I would fall into the profile group that could be asked to prove my legal status regularly. I raise my children here in Ann Arbor, because it is one of the few places in our state that doesn't treat minorities like second class citizens. Even if my license said my place of birth, it would only raise more suspicion. Passing this bill would allow law enforcement to profile minorities without cause. If illegal immigrants did NOT have work by employers who break the law, this would NOT be an issue. Punish the source of the problem (employers) versus burdening the innocent bystanders.

Old Salt

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:45 p.m.

I was born in Ann Arbor,but the only proof I have of that is my birth certificate, which I do not carry on my person, if I am asked for proof of being a legal resident I cannot prove it. I do have a valid United States Passport but that is safely in my desk at home, I am not going to carry that around with me all of the time... so arrest me..

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:27 p.m.

@smaive: Outstanding! Only 10 posts into the thread and already Goodwins Law is in force! Good job.

Steve Pepple

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 1:04 p.m.

A comment containing a personal attack has been removed.

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.

bill. I disagree. How many elements of the Nazi regime do we need before we are alert to the problem? Close enough to be considered, in my mind. I don't think I'm mistaken. The lessons of Nazi Germany arise far short of the full package. When you have the full package, or get "even close," it's too late.

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:59 p.m.

@ macjont, no it doesn't!!! Not even close! No one is being moved into ghettos, made to starve to death, wear yellow stars of David, dispossessed, and made to spend the remainder of their lives in a death camp. No, macjont, you are mistaken!

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:06 p.m.

Other than B movies, I think the "Show me zee papahs" is overblown. Next time you get pulled over, call the cop a Nazi and tell him you won't show him zee papahs. Good luck with that.

Long Time No See

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:36 p.m.

It's Godwin's Law, not Goodwin's Law. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law" rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law</a> I think it's debatable whether it applies to this conversation. If one accepts that &quot;show me your papers&quot; was a part of the Nazi regime, then I think one could argue that you can't really Godwin a discussion about laws requiring the presentation of documentation.

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.

The problem with this one is that the proposed legislation comes all too close to what happened in Nazi Germany --- Goodwin's Law notwithstanding. While the analogies do not always apply, in some instances they do. If not on all fours, this situation makes such comparisons much better than irrelevant, and certainly worth considering. So, the &quot;Goodwin's Law&quot; brushoff does not work.

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:19 p.m.

I am a natural born citizen. My wife, born in the Philippine, has been a naturalized citizen for 38 years. Suppose, while each of us is out driving our own vehicles, each of us is stopped by the police for whatever reason. Under the proposed legislation, what are the odds that my wife will be asked for proof of US citizenship versus the odds that I will be asked for the same? Anyone who believes that those odds are the same has been living under the Geico rock. Should this bill reach his desk, will Rick Snyder veto it?

HaeJee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 7 p.m.

@cinnabar, you comment is insulting to say the least. The point is not about &quot;not following the rules&quot;, it is about principle. Why should I have to produce papers because I look Asian, yet my white husband isn't even noticed? That is called profiling. I am as much as an American as anyone else that claims citizenship and deserve the SAME and EQUAL rights as anyone else. What you are advertising and promoting is that it is okay for our Americans that look foreign to take the brunt of assault. You are saying is that it is okay to make non-whites prove they are legal over and over and over and over again. It would be humiliating to say the least. It would also be telling my children how racist our country is and many Americans do not see us as equal Americans. Fortunately, I have been able to conceal it to some point living here in Ann Arbor. Why don't you suggest that all us foreign looking people just wear a band around our arm to better identify our citizenship? At least then, we wouldn't be targeted when we were walking down the streets or driving. How cares on how humiliating it would be for my children when neighbors and their friends see us having to look for our paperwork. It must be nice to live in your white ivory tower.

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:44 p.m.

Yes, and my wife follows the rules also. So she should not have to carry papers to prove her citizenship any more than I should. And Forever 27, you make no sense at all. Having practiced law for 30 years, I am well aware of presumption and when and how they apply and at what stages of various proceedings. What concerns me is the discretion given people at early times in the procedure to entertain a presumption of guilt based on irrelevant indicia.

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:34 p.m.

@cinnabar, that's not really sound logic. There is a distinct difference between being innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent. Our justice system is premised on the former, your logic is premised on the latter.

cinnabar7071

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:20 p.m.

Who cares? So what if she has to show her paper work, big deal. Macjont my sons mother is from Thialand and has never had a problem, of corse she follows the rules so she has no worries.

leaguebus

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:06 p.m.

@Diane. I was stopped for speeding a while back by a Sheriff and do not have any problem with that, I was going faster than the limit. But if I was darker skinned and I was stopped for no reason except to check my citizenship status, I would have a big problem with that. Illegals are a small portion of any ethnic population in this area, this means that for every illegal caught, there will be a bunch of stops of non illegals and this is racial profiling at its worst. Sorry, this is the USA, we do not persecute our minorities by presuming they are all illegal until proven otherwise.

johnnya2

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 11:57 p.m.

&quot; they can not provide proof of legally being in this country&quot; Prove you legally belong in this country at ANY moment. Your drivers license is NOT proof you legally belong in this country. So you want people born in the USA to carry around their papers documenting their origin? If your belief is that police officers always stop people lawfully, you live in crazy town.

Dale

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:37 p.m.

Did you actually READ the story or the part that states an &quot;officer has lawfully stopped, detained or arrested them for a violation&quot;? I must have missed the part that allows for verification of status because of how you look! I will check the legislation again.......... NOPE not in there. Also there is a provision for verifying a persons legal status before receiving welfare is there something wrong with that also? Or maybe because &quot;illegals are a small portion of any ethnic population&quot; we should not care be concerned with the cost of providing them services because we as a state are flush with cash.

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 6:29 p.m.

@stephen, if someone is already lawfully stopped, they can be searched. This is already the case. Laws like this are superfluous, at best. There is no need to add draconian statutes like this that do nothing to actually enhance public safety, but rather worsen it.

jcj

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.

And how do you &quot;prove otherwise&quot;? Wait for them to turn themselves in? I certainly do not advocate stopping someone to see if they are illegals. But if in the course of any encounter with law enforcement they can not provide proof of legally being in this country the should be given an opportunity to provide proof or be deported. At this point someone is more likely to receive a stiffer penalty for driving without a license than being an illegal!

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:16 p.m.

What part of &quot;lawfully stopped, detained, or arrested&quot; don't you understand?

Dexterdriver

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:53 p.m.

It cracks me up how lots of lefties have no logic behind their &quot;reasoning&quot;, can't discuss an issue without getting angry and insulting, and, almost without exception, wind up claiming that the only reason someone could disagree with them is that they are brainwashed by Fox News. The reason for this seems to be that they don't think logically, are mostly ignorant of the facts in an argument, and, primarily rely on preconceived emotions, not thought-out attitudes. They know their &quot;feelings&quot; lack rigor, so they lash out.

HaeJee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 7:09 p.m.

Actually, you lack the logic. I am opposed to this bill because it would infringe on my rights. If people in this country was not so prejudice and racist, it might not be an issue. I am as American as you are, yet I would have to produce papers because I look Asian. That is called profiling. I am as much as an American as anyone else that claims citizenship and deserve the SAME and EQUAL rights as anyone else. What you are advertising and promoting is that it is okay for our Americans that look foreign to take the brunt of assault. You are saying is that it is okay to make non-whites prove they are legal over and over and over and over again. It would be humiliating to say the least. It would also be telling my children how racist our country is and many Americans do NOT see or treat us as equal Americans. Why don't you suggest that all us foreign looking people just wear a band around our arm to better identify our citizenship? I support stopping the illegals coming into our country, so do it by putting bills in place to punish the employers.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:53 p.m.

How about enforcing the law you respect so much against employers who hire illegals?

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:27 p.m.

A simple response to this one: just plain stupid!

bugjuice

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:09 p.m.

Your comment is the perfect example of what you claim the &quot;lefties&quot; are up to.

Garrett

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:01 p.m.

Cute, ad hominem, but cute.

transmission

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:38 p.m.

Republicans in Lansing are playing to the hard right for show. It sounds like this law would give law enforcement some power in certain circumstances, but does anyone believe that laws like this will actually do anything about the number of illegal immigrants in the country? Of course it won't. There are two ways to solve that issue. One: Spend lots of tax dollars enforcing immigration laws. I'm not sure Republicans will go for this, unless, perhaps, we use minimum-wage rent-a-cops who don't have state or federal pensions; Or Two: Penalize big business caught using illegal immigrants.. You want to solve the problem? Drop huge fines on companies using illegal immigrants. They'll solve the problem real fast. But we know the Republicans or Democrats aren't going to do that. So, let's just pass a law that does nothing except make Rush Limbaugh listeners feel warm inside knowing that the tough life of an illegal immigrant could potentially become more miserable.

macjont

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:48 p.m.

Paradoxically, Stephen Landes, in our country respect for the law means even &quot;presumed&quot; lawbreakers are entitled to the protections of our laws and the constitution. As I have show by an example in another comment, the proposed law presents non-lawbreakers (e.g. my wife and my sons who are both natural born citizens) with challenges that are constitutionally problematic.

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:13 p.m.

No, they are &quot;playing&quot; to the constitutions (state and Federal) and to respect for law. Illegals have no respect for our laws nor do the people that knowingly hire them.

jcj

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:56 p.m.

&quot;knowing that the tough life of an illegal immigrant could potentially become more miserable.&quot; My heart bleeds for them! What about the tough life of a legal immigrant that works at K-mart but can't get help because they make too much money! And pay taxes. You don't seem to have a problem spending my money to feed, house , clothe and provide free medical care to illegals. But don't spend a dime on enforcing existing laws!

Technojunkie

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:36 p.m.

The welfare state and the police state go hand in hand. So long as the Left is handing out goodies with Other People's Money there will need to be controls on who gets what or we'll go broke even faster than we are now. The proposed controls seem pretty minor to me. OTOH, Michigan has an emigration problem more than an immigration problem. Overall, my impression is: meh.

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:36 p.m.

I suggest that everyone watch the movie &quot;A Day Without a Mexican.&quot;

Ryan J. Stanton

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:39 p.m.

That is a pretty good flick.

lumberg48108

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:31 p.m.

I think the issue is how this is being presented! I could be wrong but ANYONE who is pulled over or stopped by police for a legit reason has to show ID in some fashion - and we all expect it and its normal! but the way its presented is making it seem like a check-point in soviet block countries in the 1980s and that makes people feel uncomfortble as Seth Meyers said on SNL &quot;every WWII movie has included the line&quot; -- 'show me your papers'

Garrett

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:30 p.m.

@ Dexterdriver Following your logic, why shouldn't we let police, or any government official, into our homes to check to see if we aren't breaking the law? How about body-cavity searches at a cop's whim? Let's allow those too! After all, if you aren't breaking the law, you have nothing to hide, right? Oh yeah, this is the UNITED STATES! We don't do that here. If you don't like it, you can move someplace else. Your Fox&quot;News&quot; bias gives you away... NO ONE that didn't watch Fox ever doubted the citizenship of Obama. Besides, unlike Obama, McCain wasn't born in the United States. Were you crying over that, too? I doubt it.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:11 p.m.

good one Garrett!

SMAIVE

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:27 p.m.

Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles ...

Wolf's Bane

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:55 p.m.

I think this is a foolish response Smaive. Presenting papers is about not just protecting yourself as it is about protecting law enforcement and giving them a clue as to who they're dealing with. You (hopefully) have your license, registration, and proof of insurance when you drive your car, right? What is so different? If anything, you may want revise your German anthem to: &quot;Euro, Euro, over the US! Smarter then the US and you.&quot;

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:19 p.m.

@Briegel; Totally agree....almost 100% Toss the employer in jail, or a hefty fine or whatever. Make it hurt. Possible exception might be if they have papers that were forged or something and the employer hired them in good faith. I doubt that is the case most of the time. So, yes, that and send the illegal alien back as well. Don't make it worth anyone's while and it will stop.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:37 p.m.

jcj, our laws already deal with illegals. As usual, you are wrong.

jcj

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:31 p.m.

@ EyeHeartA2 I agree with you without reservation on all points. But you will never get Mr Briegel to offer any solution EXCEPT for putting the employer in jail and then give the illegal some free services. And it would not be a free ride home!

Top Cat

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.

Would someone please give Jeff Irwin something productive to do ? He seems like a moth flitting about and randomly aligning himself with non-issues or on the wrong side of important ones. Would someone please tell Jeff Irwin that young people are leaving our State in droves because there is no work for them? Could someone clue Jeff in to our $1.8 trillion deficit ? Or at minimum, would someone buy him some tinker toys to keep him busy ?

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:38 p.m.

You mean Slick Rick hasn't fixed things yet? I don't believe your messiah has created any jobs!

Stephen Landes

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:11 p.m.

He is a Democrat from what is still the left wing bastion of Michigan -- of course he has nothing else to do. If he and his party had any good ides we wouldn't be trying to dig ourselves out of the enormous hole we are in -- not just the deficit, but the unsustainable growth in government size and complexity. He is simply pandering to his base.

Dexterdriver

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.

The objections to this bill are ludicrous. Why shouldn't police check the legal status of people they stop? If they snuck into this country, or overstayed a visa, they commited a criminal act, and should be dealt with accordingly. Of course, we have a president whose birth origin is in question, so I guess that makes this whole issue touchy to Democrats and others who don't feel laws need to be followed. No doubt, the majority of Michigan's legal residents and citizens wouldn't mind the enforcement of our immigration laws. For those that find fault with the police and others doing the right thing, too darn bad!

HaeJee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 7:16 p.m.

Your ignorance fails to see how the law enforcement would track down these illegal. They would need to stop every non-white they see. Try some logic please.

macjont

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:40 a.m.

To ridiculous to merit a response. So why am I doing even this?

Mick52

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 10:11 p.m.

Please DD, drop the President's birthplace thing. He was born in the US. Its not an unlawful search Forever. There are lots of ways an experienced officer can develop PC on this law.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:45 p.m.

How about enforcing the laws against hiring illegals? And it is just silly to doubt the birthplace of our President. SILLY!

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:19 p.m.

-edit to first comment, &quot;probable cause&quot;

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:18 p.m.

It's called unlawful search and seizure. You cannot be forced to prove you're a citizen because there is no real way to obtain probably cause. If you're suspected of committing a crime, you can be searched. That is already legal and on the books. this bill does nothing but incriminate people before actually having reason to do so. It's flat-out unconstitutional.

jcj

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:14 p.m.

@bugjuice &quot;Are we trying to do the same thing here in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave?&quot; The phrase &quot;Land of the Free&quot; has come to mean something different to illegal immigrants. But those words ring hollow with most tax paying citizens of this country. Because it is costing us our way of life to provide illegal immigrants with free services! Our drivers licenses or state ID should have more information on them. Including Country of birth, immigration status. They have height, weight, eye color, hair color. WHY? To help IDENTIFY people.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:07 p.m.

We've been tap dancing around this issue for decades. People come here for a job. It is illegal to hire an illegal. If there weren't lawbreakers hiring illegals they would not be here. If America had any desire to solve this problem it would be quite simple. Put the lawbreaking employers in jail. Not to worry, that will never happen. The lawbreakers are mostly upper class White folks and our nation does not seem to be able to jail this class of lawbreakers. It is truly sad to see this issue demagogued over and over as hatred for &quot;the other&quot; is used as a political tool. Easy to blame the little guy!

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Mar 4, 2011 : 1:57 a.m.

Eyeheart, I look forward to you laying that one one me. I have a boozy of a reply. Good Night and Good Luck

EyeHeartA2

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 2:25 p.m.

ERM; Actually, that is the line that is used when decrying &quot;corporate welfare&quot; or &quot;tax breaks for the rich&quot; - then you can come back with &quot;Hey, a poor man never gave anybody a job&quot;. I'll stick it on you in the next week or two. It will be fun.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:12 a.m.

At least one really rich dude, someone who publicly ranted and raved for years about illegal immigrants, hired some. <a href="http://www.thenation.com/print/article/155209/lou-dobbs-american-hypocrite" rel='nofollow'>http://www.thenation.com/print/article/155209/lou-dobbs-american-hypocrite</a> But I'm certain that the rest of the 10,000,000 were hired by po' folk. @eyeheart: apparently not. In Sb's world, he needs proof that the 10,000,000 illegals weren't hired by po' folk. Good Night and Good Luck

EyeHeartA2

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 3:05 a.m.

There 'ya go. As they say, a poor man never gave anybody a job....but that's a line for a different argument, different day, I guess.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 2:56 a.m.

Guess you know po' folk who have employees, do ya, Sb?? Yes, I'm certain that the 10 million or so illegals in this nation have all been hired by po' folk. After all, they need someone to do their housework, don't they. Reminds me of Bugs Bunny's opinion of a deep red color. Good Night and Good Luck

sbbuilder

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 11:24 p.m.

Mr Briegel Thanks ever so much for the data. I really appreciate the effort. I looks like the other fella gives you a pass on this one. How convenient. How consistent.

David Briegel

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 9:09 p.m.

Cash, don't worry, if it were po' folk, builder would have them in jail in a hurry! As would the rest of the establishment. You know very well that class warfare is the reason that aspect of our sacred laws are not enforced! He who has the gold rules!! And yes, builder wants more tax cuts for their class off people.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:51 p.m.

Sb: Anyone who employs an illegal has broken the law. Doubt there are many po' folk who have employees. Good Night and Good Luck

sbbuilder

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:20 p.m.

Mr Briegel Got to rush in here and ask for a teensy weensy bit of data to support your contention that the lawbreakers are mostly upper class White folks. Just can't wait to see the hard data on this one. Don't worry, though, I'll not be holding my breath on this one.

Cash

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 5:21 p.m.

No David, we give the real offenders TAX CUTS!

EyeHeartA2

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:05 p.m.

&quot;Our local police have more pressing matters than demanding every non-white person prove their immigration status,&quot; Wow. I didn't realize that the bill told them to go after every non-white person. This could indeed be an issue. - but, now that I think about it, I suspect that Jeff might be stretching the truth a bit? Maybe?

EyeHeartA2

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 8:21 p.m.

@HaeJee; Didn't read the bill, huh? Now, go back and read it and point out the part about profiling. Maybe, people that are here ILLEGALLY shouldn't be causing a stir. That would be my plan, if I was doing something illegal.

HaeJee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.

Who do you think they would be profiling? How many Europeans do you know that are here illegally and causing a political stir? It must be nice to live in the world of the majority.

TheGerman

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:51 p.m.

When I received my Green Card, it said right in the letter that I have to carry it on me at all times and present it upon request by law enforcement officials. I see how it could lead to stereotyping and discrimination, but personally I don't have a problem with having to show my card upon request. The only thing that bugs me is that they require carrying the Green Card, but if it's ever lost or stolen, it's $495 for a replacement card.

HaeJee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 7:21 p.m.

When you turn that green card into a nauturalization paper. It says on the certification that it is ILLEGAL to copy. Not very portable piece of paper to carry.

johnnya2

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 11:50 p.m.

The thing you do not seem to comprehend is what about say a guy named Juan Sanchez who happened to be BORN in the United States. He can not produce a &quot;green card&quot; because he does not have one, nor need one. This is the republican model for national ID. The right wing wants to have people walking in lock step to what authority says. Listening to authority would have meant no revolutionary war.

John B.

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:22 p.m.

@The German: Of course you don't have a problem with it, you are not a minority, and therefore not suject to illegal profiling....

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:21 p.m.

You are also not a citizen of the U.S. and are subject to deportation at any time. The government has no such power over the citizens, only resident aliens. It's a protection guaranteed by the 4th amendment.

Canadienne

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:10 p.m.

This is true for other forms of non-resident identification as well, but the benefit of a green card is that it is at least portable. Unfortunately, there are other forms of residency identification, such as a Form I-94 stapled inside of a passport (in my case a Canadian passport). I dislike carrying my passport because I fear it being lost or stolen - not only because of the replacement costs, but also because of the difficulty I would have with entering Canada, and reentering the United States.

Diane

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.

I will gladly show my 'Papers' every time I am stopped by the Police. This is what everyone does- what's the dif?

macjont

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : 12:44 a.m.

No you don't. There is no requirement in this country that anyone carry papers on their person. The requirement that one produce a drivers license and proof of insurance if stopped while driving a motor vehicle is imposed for the privilege of driving. As stated elsewhere in these comments, passengers in a vehicle are under no obligation to carry papers of any kind.

John B.

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:44 p.m.

Above reply is directed toward the initial comment....

John B.

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 7:43 p.m.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but lemme guess - you are Caucasian. When we moved to Ann Arbor in the 1980s I couldn't understand why the vast majority of the cars that I saw stopped by local Police had non-white drivers. Seemed really odd to me....

bugjuice

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 4:04 p.m.

The difference is that here in the USA we have rights against unreasonable search and seizure for no good reason. IF the police just decide to stop you regardless of what you were doing whether or not you are driving. What then? Wouldn't you think you were being singled out for no good reason? And if the police decide your papers aren't in order, what then?

Ignatz

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:53 p.m.

Even if they stop you without cause?

DonBee

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:24 p.m.

Rep. Irwin - Simple change to the bill. Require that police ask for papers on any stop. Just amend the bill. If you are in a traffic stop, you are supposed to show your driver's license, if you don't you get a ticket. If you apply it to everyone, there is no issue of discrimination right? 50 years ago, the police knew everyone in their town and anyone from outside the town got a quick look. It was just the way it was. Today that is not true, the police know almost no one in the community, so showing ID makes sense to me. Regardless of the reason, the police should verify who they are talking to.

DonBee

Thu, Mar 3, 2011 : midnight

EMG - Not true, if you have one of the &quot;enhanced&quot; Michigan drivers licenses, then you have proof of citizenship. This was done by the Federal Government to facilitate travel to Canada and Mexico, and Michigan was one of the states to sign on. One time verification. Draft Cards and Voter Registration may also count depending on the final form of the bill. As will a Military ID card. It will depend on which amendments are accepted.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 8:47 p.m.

Johnnya2, It's worse than that. &quot;Proper papers&quot; in this context is a birth certificate or a passport. Yes, let's all of us carry those around with us everywhere we go. [In thick German accent] Papers please. Good Night and Good Luck

johnnya2

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 3:03 p.m.

So base don YOUR concept every person needs to have papers no matter what. If I am in a car with somebody driving I am under no obligation to carry ID. I do not need &quot;papers&quot; to walk through the city of Ann Arbor. How about a 15 year old driving with their parents? I guess if dad gets a speeding ticket, but junior can not produce an ID he is going to jail. Since there is no proof of his age the assumption will be to take him to the Hogback Hilton. Grandma no longer drives, and gets pulled over with her grandson speeding, but alas gets pulled over. Grandma is going to jail. The &quot;problem&quot; of illegal immigration is one of the most over blown lies in the republican play book. People who are in this country pay taxes through things like property tax (it is part of rent), buying gasoline (gas tax), buying clothes (sales tax). Any company employing them as landscapers or for a meat cutting plant is in violation of the federal law regarding paying taxes and minimum wage on employees. When I see owners and CEO's of these companies walked around in handcuffs and imprisoned we can have a conversation. That means any stockholder who owns part of a company breaking the law (IBP) needs to be jailed as well and forfeit any ILLEGALLY GAINED profits. I won;t even get into the fact that blacks were brought here against their will to perform these jobs as slaves and were NEVER compensated for it, and that the &quot;borders&quot; were made up by white MEN stealing land from the natives.

Ignatz

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:52 p.m.

That's what police usually do anyway. I would be a good idea to codify it, like you suggest.

bugjuice

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:50 p.m.

So let's go back the the good old days when we all knew each other and everyone was safe because of that? What a sad and wrong myth that is! The good old days weren't always so good for everyone. So when the police see someone different on the street and the police suspect that the person is &quot;from away&quot; they can demand &quot;Papers please&quot;? We all remember the WW2 movies and what country that happened in and what their political system was. Are we trying to do the same thing here in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave?

Forever27

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:39 p.m.

that wasn't even true 50 years ago. Maybe in really small town, people knew everyone, but that is still the same. To say that &quot;things just aren't as good as they used to be&quot; smells of selective nostalgia. You can't force everyone to prove their citizenship at every encounter with law enforcement. There is a whole host of constitutional issues with that as well as blowback towards the police themselves.

BigMike

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:20 p.m.

I'd like to see some objective statistics on how much illegal immigration costs Michigan. It sounds right that we would spend more on health care, education, welfare and corrections costs, but is there also a commensurate benefit to the state through inexpensive labor?

bugjuice

Wed, Mar 2, 2011 : 2:40 p.m.

Yes, inexpensive, most often illegally employed &quot;labor&quot; by businesses and individuals for less than the minimum wage, paying no SS or FICA, all in violation of federal law. So who's breaking the law and who's benefitting? Who's making $$ from the work of those who will be prosecuted?