YpsiLivin

Thu, Oct 29, 2009 : 10:28 p.m.

AnnArborite, This might come as a surprise to you, but many students in Ann Arbor attend private kindergartens now. Most day care centers operate them and the Ann Arbor Public School system hasn't died as a result. There's nothing wrong with privatizing kindergarten - yet another educational non-requirement the state needlessly pays for. Second, no one - and I mean NO ONE - will move from a school district because it doesn't offer kindergarten (gasp!). At the same time, no one moves into a community because they have a killer kindergarten program. Just doesn't happen. Kindergarten should be privatized. Unfortunately for the Ann Arbor taxpayers, they've saddled themselves with a substantial bond to pay for pre-school and kindergarten renovations to their buildings. No matter what happens to kindergarten, Ann Arbor will find a way to waste money on it.

KeepingItReal

Wed, Oct 28, 2009 : 2:18 p.m.

I have read each and everyone of these posts and I must say that I found them to be quite informative and some good suggestions for WISD such as the possibility of consolidation of certain functions by the districts before presenting a millage to voters. I would like to see the WISD present some options to the communtiy such as: Plan A. This is what you get with the passage of the millage; Plan B. This is what will happen if a millage fail (minus the scare tactics); and, Plan C. If some of the cost saving suggestions as presented are taken into consideration, what will it look like for the districts. Lisa Starfield and Alan Benard. I am turnoffed by your attitudes. Lisa, $200 annually or $17/month may not seem like much to you but could be for others; Alan, your name calling is a turnoff, especially for someone who is straddling the fence. In my dealing iwth the AA Public SChools, I have found many of thier personnel (administrators) to be condescending and unprofessional in ther interaction with certain portion of the community. Also, while people may not like the fact that McKinley has contributed financially to the opposition of this millage, they at least pay taxes. UM own 70% of the land mass in this community but pay absolutely no taxes. When UM purchased the Pfizer property, the City automatically lost $10 Million in taxes annually. I am definitely leaning toward voting no and I have not seem anything from the ISD or other school districts to convince me otherwise.

treetowncartel

Wed, Oct 28, 2009 : 10:18 a.m.

Why do my posts about looking into what the districts pay for maintenece/groundskeepers keep getting deleted. Is this hitting too close to home for someone. i have witnessed and and heard of serious abuses of the system by these employees over my lifetime. agian, i am not concerned about the custodians, I am tlaking about the people who maintain all the facilites. what is this costing the districts? Can it be privatized and money saved?

AnnArborite

Wed, Oct 28, 2009 : 10:09 a.m.

Put yourself in the shoes of a parent who has a child at pre- kindergarten age (4) - with the thought of Washtenaw County doing away with Kindergarten....? -- Washtenaw county is thought of providing excellent education -- but we would have to move elsewhere to provide the basic service of Kindergarten. Think about the job losses in our county if each Kindergarten teacher is laid off. I'm voting Yes.

YpsiLivin

Wed, Oct 28, 2009 : 6:45 a.m.

Thanks Steve, but as long as we have 10 districts in Washtenaw County, they haven't done nearly enough.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 9:55 p.m.

YpsiLivin and others: you may feel that the WISD districts have not done enough to consolidate services, but there is no question that they have made significant progress towards finding efficiencies and improving service provision by helping local school districts collaborate. It should not be surprising that this often has a bigger impact on the other districts in the WISD, which are generally much smaller, than it does on AAPS. For more information, see this WISD publication: http://wash.k12.mi.us/files/ConsolidationofServicesList80709.pdf

MightyQuinn

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 9:46 p.m.

There are a various figures on 'average' teacher salaries. I found at http://swz.salary.com/ for Ann Arbor HS teachers an average 'base' salary of $56,684 ($79,370 with S/S, health insurance, 401K, time off, etc.) and for elementary teachers $54,362 ($76,353) for probably 2006-2007. At http://public.findyourschool.info/Michigan/AnnArbor/publicschoolsincity.aspx in 2007 there were 18,226 students and a student-teacher ratio of 16.15 to give 1,128 teachers. At http://www.mackinac.org/depts/epi/fiscal.aspx for 2007-2008 expenditures for instruction salaries in the Ann Arbor school district was $75,026,778 and for benefits $31,454,593 for 15,169 students. Using the 16.15 student-teacher ratio gives 939 teachers, a discrepancy with the previous number. Using these two teacher numbers gives a salary range of about $66,513 - 79,878 with the Mackinac expenditures. I was not able to find a definition of 'instructor' as used in the Mackinac tables or a breakout for only classroom teachers or what salary and benefits include. If someone has reliable sources for this and other information, it would be extremely helpful. If we don't have a means of sharing reliable data it will become difficult to make an informed decision on the millage increase.

YpsiLivin

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 8:11 p.m.

I find it interesting that the WashCo school districts can come together to support a millage, but have never attempted a joint effort to find cost savings through consolidated programs, administration and services. We don't need 10 separate school districts with 10 separate administrations, 10 separate bus fleets, 10 bus maintenance garages, 10 separate school library systems, 10 different food service programs, 10 human resources departments, 10 separate payroll administrations and 10 different curricula in Washtenaw County. Instead of running to the ballot box, why don't the WashCo districts develop a model of cost containment that can be transferred to other counties within the state? Think of it as an opportunity to do things differently.

a2girl

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 7:10 p.m.

limmy, Your assumption that McKinley is only worried about their tax bill and therefore against the millage is unfounded. This is a company that contributes huge amounts of money to organizations and institutions in our community that directly impact our quality of life. Would not an increase in their tax bill leave them with a lot less to donate?

macaroniman

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 6:17 p.m.

Teacher contracts will be opened. Benefits will, and have been cut. Pay increases will be stalled. All of this is going to happen whether the millage passes or not. What about real estate? Say what you will, but Washtenaw County may need its highly regarded schools to continue to provide a quality education if we are to continue to draw people. So far, the Ann Arbor area has been lucky in this regard. The bottom line for me is that if budgets are cut, if a millage is not passed, kids will suffer. Sure, districts could make cuts that will help them to be more fiscally responsible, but most districts have been in cost cutting mode for years and are genuinely trying to be more responsible. Kids will suffer, our state will suffer, and our economy will suffer if we think that cutting money to public schools is the answer. Let's not forget, Ann Arbor isn't the only school system involved here. There are outlying districts that have been more frugal, and therefore deserve more credit. Also, anyone who thinks teachers have it easy and get their summers off is wrong and hasn't taught before. Remember, teachers are helping to make kids, not cars. Please vote yes. Your community depends on it.

a2edu

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 5:36 p.m.

After reading the post by the wing-nuts on both the right and the left, the fact remains that we have an educational system that cannot be supported by current revenues taken in. The State of Michigan is broke. It's easy to say we should have seen this coming (especially after the decades-old, failed prop 13 fiasco in California.... similar to our own proposition A), but as I said before, that's water under the bridge. As a teacher in the AAPS system, I have to agree that the union to which I belong has been politically tone-deaf to the public's demand for accountability and fiscal restraint. (Read most all of these posts, and that much obvious.) The silent middle in this obnoxious online back-and-forth rant knows the following: 1. There is still plenty of waste in AAPS. There are many highly paid positions at the Balas Administration Building that have absolutely no impact on student achievement. In fact, it's a running joke with most all AAPS faculty that if you screw up as an administrator, then there's a desk position waiting for you at Balas. Why does this happen? Because of the fear of potential litigation, and also because it's politically incorrect to trim such payrolls. 2. Ann Arbor has 6 high schools: Huron, Pioneer, Skyline, Community Stone and Roberto Clemente. Each has a highly paid principal. (I won't even get into Skyline's principal situation.) I'm curious why we need two alternative high schools (Stone AND Clemente)? Oh wait, Community is ALSO an alternative high school, with a HUGE spending advantage per capita over the other high schools. Whenever anyone talks about inequity in AAPS, they never seem to notice that particular inequity. ANN ARBOR DOES NOT NEED NOR CAN IT AFFORD 6 (SIX) HIGH SCHOOLS!!! All of us know it, and it's absolutely indefensible given the current fiscal crisis. 3. Ann Arbor has a top-of-the-line public transit system, which, according to current claims, is under utilized. Providing school-funded bussing is redundant and outrageously expensive. David Jesse- what is the total cost of providing bussing for AAPS students. What would be the cost of providing each student with an AATA bus pass? Anyone want to bet on which one costs millions less? 4. I will admit that my kids are in sports programs in both middle school and high school, and that they love to participate. I will also admit that there are many kids who cannot afford to participate in athletics if we were to move to a pay-for-play scenario. But, is it wise to sacrifice academics for equity in athletic? This is a tough one, but the cost of providing the number of athletic opportunities (and I'm talking about busing, field and facility maintenance, coaching, insurance, etc) is astronomical. If we're really concerned about equity, then I would just assume it be equity in academic achievement. 5. No teacher I know complains about increased co-pays. We are grateful for and we appreciate our benefits. We work hard (oh, I know... everyone here works hard) and are compensated fairly. So, to all of you continual, teacher-blasting, blow-hards: please shut up already. (At least I said please.) 6. To the MEA / AAEA: Are you folks out of your minds? What made you think that floating a millage increase in 2009 was a good idea? This is the kind of political density that results in the union's abysmal approval ratings. Why not have an intelligent conversation (a rhetorical question) about cost controls, savings and priorities. Get involved in the up-coming community discussions on where to cut costs. Park your collective agendas and engage in problem solving. Vote in the election. Stop the ignorant shouting.

Lisa Starrfield

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 4:41 p.m.

Kate, If your home has a market value of 186K, then your tax increase should be no more than $200/year. That's $17/month and hardly a burden.

ResidentAnvil

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 3:08 p.m.

Paper Tiger--It is amazing to me that you say you looked at the Saline website and saw their contract, then say that teachers don't pay for their benefits. That is one contract. The contracts for other districts are all different. How can you generalize about this subject and then think its funny when others say you are wrong?

dotdash

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 9:09 a.m.

YpsiLiving -- You make some good points. I guess in my calculation, it's not that the public has a responsibility to fix the jobs situation, it's that the public has an interest in fixing the jobs situation. If the public does what it can do (keep the community attractive to workers, provide tax breaks for job creation) and the private sector does what it can do (not lay people off and maybe even create more jobs) then maybe can weather this. That said, I do sympathize with the "I just don't have any more to give" position. I'm more than a little scared myself -- it's gut-check time. I just know from my own experience how important good public schools are and my strategy would be to preserve our strengths and try to ride it out rather than allowing our strengths to erode and drag us downhill. I'd also like to make a suggestion to everyone out there that comes at (hardly any) cost to you: buy local. If you buy from local stores, the stores pay taxes which support schools, they hire workers who spend their salaries here, they bank in local banks, etc. etc. It may cost a bit more than going to an online or national big box chain -- or maybe not -- but the money stays local and that makes a big difference.

David Jesse

Tue, Oct 27, 2009 : 7:01 a.m.

FYI - for those of you interested in what raises employees in Ann Arbor got over the last several years, you can find them here: http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddjrxdjs_21fxc2kmhk

DonBee

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 9:46 p.m.

Alan - Which wild claims are you talking about the 10 recommendations to cut the cost of overhead in the schools that I posted. You keep poking at me and not the links (e.g. the census numbers on income, the links to the various test scores or the links to the ranking for property taxes)? I posted in another thread actual property tax levels and no one is refuting those numbers. I posted comments made to me by people - with no judgement on them, just the comments, so people could make their own judgements. Lets go back to debating the data, rather than the current political way of doing things - which is to cut down your opponent. I am very pleased to see that your children are in the system and in Bach Open it is a wonderful school and as I have said time and again in my posts, I do not want to disrupt the classrooms or the teachers in them, nor do I want to take away from them. What I want to see is a real debate on fixing the overhead issues in the local schools. You have yet to engage on those issues, which for someone with a college degree and a technical job a major company, is disappointing. Please bring the debate up a level and quote the things you think are wild claims and where you think I am not putting facts on the table. Please.

Alan Benard

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 8:07 p.m.

donbee: I am a parent at Ann Arbor Open School. All parents there are active participants because that is how the school operates an exceptional program with no additional cost to the district, apart perhaps from busing.And I post with my real name, hotshot. Now, about those unfounded accusations you make, where's the evidence? I don't have to call you names, it is evident you can't back up these wild claims.

djahner

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 7:08 p.m.

In my opinion to create such a tax and not share the monies with charter school, parochial school, and home-school children is simply theivery. Try coming up with something that benefits all kids rather than being a pick-pocket.

PaperTiger

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 4:47 p.m.

It just kills me when people say the teachers pay for their health/dental benefits. Check out the SEA contracts on the Saline Area Schools website. They pay for NOTHING, other than a co-pay for prescriptions. Also, they are reimbursed for their additional "training" via Teacher Improvement funds, which is in the contract. Do your homework before you say that they are paying. Vote NO.

DonBee

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 3:13 p.m.

Alan - Your name calling does not advance anything. If you check my posts - you will find lots of links - far more than your posts. Reminding folks that there are vested interests on both sides does not seem to be a conspiracy to me. I would love to know the conspiracy that I am pushing. Please do tell me! As to refuting, by my count of the 10 items i laid out for AAPS, I have had push back on 1, and that push back admitted they did it and did not address the rest of the issue. So the issue was true, not refuted. If you like I will repost the list here on this thread and see where that goes. OBTW - i have acknowledged that I don't work for the school, but do have children there and that I am active in the schools supporting my children. i don't recall you providing any such statement of your involvement or non-involvement - so to be fair, how about telling us?

Alan Benard

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 2:53 p.m.

donbee, you are a conspiracy theorist and you offer no evidence to back up your wild claims. No one should listen to your mostly refuted claims -- the ones which do not rely upon the school district "lying" or some other special knowledge you have of conspiracy.Unions are made up of regular, working people. They have protections and rights gained through the democratic process. So do corporations. How do you feel about those "special interests?"

DonBee

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 2:21 p.m.

Limmy - there are 4 groups - 2 pro and 2 anti. 1 Anti is funded by Mckinley and one pro is funded by the Education Unions I would listen to the other two who are funded by regular people.

YpsiLivin

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 12:12 p.m.

Dotdash, What about jobs? Michigan's unemployment is over 15%. Ann Arbor's unemployment is nearing 10%. The county and the state are already losing people irrespective of the condition of the school systems. It's not the public school system's responsibility to fix the employment situation in the county or the state. My guess is that you didn't come here because the schools were "good" and nothing says that if/when the millage is defeated, the schools will become "bad." There's nothing wrong with asking for responsible stewardship of the taxpayer's dollars, and to date, the school system has not provided ample evidence of that. More money for the schools will simply make it easier for them to deny the reality of their situation. The reality of the taxpayers' situation is that we have no more money to give. Our reality IS the school systems' reality, but the school systems continue to deny this reality and instead show up at the ballot box with their hands out. There are no handouts, Dotdash. If property values in Washtenaw county continue to drop, will the schools be back for an even bigger redefinition of what constitutes their "fair share"? You bet. It's a time-tested formula here. I have no more money to give. The kindest thing to do in this case is to refocus the schools on basic academics - after all, what taxpayer wouldn't be thrilled with rising reading, science and math scores? - and cut out the fluff, distractions and luxury items that the taxpayers can no longer afford. Think "new reality" Dotdash. When unemployment is running 10%-15%, there is no money to "enhance" the public school system.

limmy

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 10:47 a.m.

I just want to make sure that everyone knows that the millage opposition group is financed and led by McKinley properties. Not only are they "voting their pocketbook", they are campaigning their pocketbook. Increased taxes cut into the profits when you own millions of dollars of rental property. Their campaign has nothing to do with schools, and everything to do with money. That's OK, but everyone needs to know who it is and what they stand to gain.

DonBee

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 10:18 a.m.

Hollow - yes access by borrowing - but school millage was on your fall tax bill. Check it out. We already paid our 2009-2010 school tax bill. They will not send out a special tax collection for this money. They will not have direct access to this money this year other than by paying interest to a bank for a loan or placing bonds for it. I checked with the County treasurers office before I posted to make sure I had it right. Who did you check with please? Educate - Yes, you helped them buy the equipment - now - they have to store it when it is not in use. Did you raise funds to store it? They have to maintain it each year. Did you raise funds to maintain it? It does not fix itself. And someone - a staff member or a contractor will have to do the work. So you (and to some extent I, because I contributed) raised the initial capital, but we did not raise the funds to keep the gear in good shape. And the organization we helped raise the funds thru is administered by a school official on school time. So it was not a pure volunteer effort. Sorry, I do do my homework.

DagnyJ

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 9:10 a.m.

Four high schools? Ann Arbor has six high schools.

MjC

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 8:42 a.m.

I'm not using scare tactics to convince people to vote No on this mill. I'd support a tax increase that brought about consolidation (we do NOT need four high schools in A2!), supported innovative initiatives(year round school, expanded school hours (9am-4pm, M-Th), online/skype courses, etc.), school of choice competition, or a merit program for teachers. Ann Arbor has always made it a priority to provide our children with the very best education... but we are so behind the times now. Our kids (and teachers) deserve better than the same old nonsense and that's what they'll get if we just blindly continue supporting tax increases that change nothing. This mill changes nothing.

educate

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 8:40 a.m.

DonBee you are incorrect. The Disability Awareness Workshop equipment is no longer being rented and it is not maintained or stored by AAPS.

dotdash

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 8:24 a.m.

YpsiLiving -- What about jobs? We moved to Ann Arbor this summer, partly because of the good public schools (insert ironic laugh here at our expense). If Ann Arbor schools offered only "basic" education, you can bet we (and others like us) would find other cities that did better by their students. If no one could move and people had to use the public schools, okay, you could adjust your public offering down as low as you wanted. But like it or not, Washtenaw schools are in competition with schools across MI and across the country. If they aren't a draw, the county will lose jobs and people.

Andrew Thomas

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 8:24 a.m.

Scare tactics? Those of us who support the millage don't need to resort to scare tactics -- just read some of the posts from the anti-millage advocates. To summarize their ideas for meeting the budget challenge: Eliminate AP courses. Great idea, let the brightest students doze through courses they have already mastered, we certainly wouldn't want to spend any money challenging them. Eliminate Stone School. Sure, why not send these troubled kids back to the environment where they were failing (and in many (certainly not all) cases, disrupting the learning of others? Eliminate the humanities. Hey, who needs Aristotle anyway? Those boring old Greeks have no relevence to today's world. Eliminate high- and middle-school music: Same thing, music is just an "extra", doesn't add to anyone's quality of life. Eliminate transportation. Like what we really need is more cars on the road between 7:30 and 8:30. Eliminate special ed programs. Sure, why not, these aren't MY kids, let's throw them under the bus (oops, I forgot, we don't have buses anymore, guess I'll have to come up with a different metaphor). Eliminate clubs and after-school activities: Who needs these when we have TV and video games? Seriously, is this the sort of education a majority of us want for our children?

A2K

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 8:11 a.m.

Lisa, I re-calculated after your "personal" post...and my rather modest $186K home with $6500/year property taxes would be going up $300, not $400...so, er, my bad? *rolls eyes* We do not have children, we can't afford the childcare so that's a moot point as well. I have every right to vote how I want, and all the name-calling in the world is not going to change my mind...you're not going to win any supporters with your overwheening sense of entitlement.

hollow

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 8:02 a.m.

Don Bee you are incorrect. The schools will have access to the money this year...

YpsiLivin

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 7:57 a.m.

Dotdash, "Market value" isn't good for anything other than estimating the value of the tax. In many neighborhoods, the "market value" of a home is nothing since no one's buying houses. In terms of taxation, the taxable value of the property determines the cost of the tax and is the only thing that should be considered. 2(taxable value/1,000) will yield the cost of the tax under consideration for a residential parcel. So a home with a taxable value of $200,000 could incur an increase in taxes of $200. Property tax valuation increases for primary residences are capped by formula. That means the market value of a home does not always (often?) equal the taxable value. For the residential property whose taxable value is less than its state equalized value (SEV), the dollar value of the tax could rise in subsequent tax years, even though the market value and the SEV of the property both fall. Only when the taxable value and the SEV equalize will the homeowner have a chance of seeing his or her property tax decrease for this or any other property tax. Businesses and non-owner occupied parcels don't have the benefit of a taxable value cap.

Steve Norton, MIPFS

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 7:56 a.m.

Regarding how the tax would be calculated: "DotDash" is exactly right. The tax (and all property taxes) are calculated on the taxable value of your home. That is never more than SEV, which in turn is supposed to be half of market value, but is often less. As a result, an AAPS homeowner with the median home value for the district, $204,000, has a taxable value of not more than $102,000, and would pay $204 each year under this proposal. Since Proposal A capped taxable value increases in 1994, people who have been in their current homes for a long time may have taxable values less than SEV, even after recent home value declines. In any case, taxable value can never be more than SEV. As to the timing, in the city of Ann Arbor (at least), school taxes are divided equally between the summer and winter tax bills. My understanding is that half of this millage, if passed, would be included in the winter tax bill (due December 31) and so would help out our schools in the current school year. Steven Norton A2 Citizens Millage Committee

YpsiLivin

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 7:25 a.m.

Jeff, Life is inherently unfair, isn't it? Your question "You don't think that *every* kid should have a chance to play music or sports or learn about computers or drawing or journalism?" is akin to saying "Don't you think every kid should live in a mansion?" or "Don't you think every kid's parents should be doctors or lawyers?" People come from different backgrounds. I don't think it's the public school district's sacred responsibility to eliminate the socioeconomic inequities that every child who walks through its doors brings with them. The public school's job is to provide an education for each child; that doesn't mean the schools get a blank check or that the taxpayer is conscripted into paying for every class a teacher or school wants to offer. I think the state is required to provide basic education. The funding it provides covers language arts, mathematics, science, social science, foreign language instruction, social studies, and physical education. I don't think the state should also fully fund every whim that comes along. How many of our high schools have auto shops, woodworking shops, welding shops, etc.? Those facilities are provided at Washtenaw Community College. Kids can dual enroll on their own time (and their own dime) if they want to take those kinds of classes. They can earn college credit in the process. Public education as it stands is unaffordable. In an ideal world, economics would be irrelevant. In the world we live in, however, we can't afford the extravagance that some of these electives represent.

DonBee

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 7:25 a.m.

Educate - I am and I am a volunteer for the program - Oakland county has the gear, they rent it to AAPS for $100 a day - during a 3 week window each year that they are not using it. Talking to the Tech from OISD, they spend about $3000 a year in maintenance on the equipment plus it takes several weeks of tech time to keep it in running and display order. He estimated it was 1/10 of his time to keep the gear running and clean. Yes, the initial capital was raised by volunteers, but the maintenance and other support will now all be done by AAPS - adding to the staff costs and storage costs for the gear. It was not a half truth, and I pointed out the storage and maintenance costs in my post. I still think that if there is a low cost source to rent the equipment AAPS is better off. You can judge things the way you want to, but the post is based on real world discussions with the people who are running the schools and other schools. Actually reading the teacher's contracts - not only for AAPS, but several other schools. I have also spent time pulling information on the number of foreclosures, late on mortgage payments, etc. for the county. I am all for education - but we have to not drive still more people out of the county by raising taxes. Based on the Granholm interview on NPR this morning - she did it to force the State Senate to raise taxes, and fully expects that it will put enough pressure on the Senate to get all the cuts restored. So that too will raise taxes on the people most at risk for losing their homes. This crisis in mortgages was timed by the Governor to cause the most stress possible on people and force the largest uproar. If the economy was great, if people were not taking big pay cuts (check out the GM/UAW settlement), and our home values were rising, if Washtenaw County had not already used a loophole to raise taxes, Then I would be all for this. But for some families this may be the final straw. The other thing to remember is the schools will not see it this year. Our school taxes are paid in the fall - fall taxes have come and gone - the first time they will see this money is NEXT school year. So this will NOT solve the short term budget issues.

dotdash

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 7:15 a.m.

Can someone with better expertise than Bryan123 weigh in on the cost of the new tax? It is my understanding that the 2 mil increase is on the taxable value of the home, not the market value. The taxable value is about half the market value, so yes, the increase on at $400,000 home would be about $400.

educate

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 7:12 a.m.

DomBee- It seems you spent a lot of time on your comments but I am truly amazed at how misinformed you are. You go out with a big bang with comment #10 which doesn't have a single fact. You are referring to the Disability Awareness Workshops that are held yearly for 4th grade students. The $20,000 you state is inflated, and every penny was raised completely by volunteers. The workshop is also run completely by volunteers (24 per school) many of whom have disabilities themselves and receive services from the Ann Arbor Center for Independent Living. It is a fund at the Ann Arbor Public School Education Foundation. It is actually a perfect example of how private citizens are making a true difference (not just complaining) by finding creative alternatives to our funding issues. Because of this private effort, the district no longer pays to rent this equipment from the Rochester schools. The district doesn't even store the equipment as you state. It is stored at the Ann Arbor Center for Independent Living. It makes me wonder how many of your other 9 statements are only partial truths! Voters educate yourselves!

Jed I. Knight

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 6:53 a.m.

Vote no.

Bryan123

Mon, Oct 26, 2009 : 6:45 a.m.

There have been a couple of mis-informed posts on here about the actual cost to the tax payer. One poster said that an additional $400/year in taxes meant someone had a $400,000 home. Another poster said that the tax would only be an additional $250/year for a quarter million dollar home. Those would be correct if the millage were a one mill increase. In fact the tax hike would be double that. So, an additional $400/year meant the original poster had a $200,000 home (which is cheap for Washtenaw county). And a quarter million dollar home (again fairly modest for this county) would mean an additional $500 in taxes each year. In the midst of a recession when people's incomes are falling or disappearing, that can make a big difference.

Jeff

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 11:35 p.m.

To those who say that arts and sports and clubs are not worth keeping in school: Really? You don't think that *every* kid should have a chance to play music or sports or learn about computers or drawing or journalism? That those things should be just for kids whose parents can afford to pay? That these are luxuries that don't really matter that much to the quality of our kids' lives or to their futures, and we shouldn't make any sacrifice in order to keep them available to every child? I hope you're planning to buy a LOT of candy when the kids come around fundraising.

YpsiLivin

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:35 p.m.

Duane, Children who attend charter schools are there because their parents chose to send them there. There is no inherent "unfairness" in the fact that charter school students wouldn't see any of this money should the millage somehow pass. State law indicates very clearly that charter schools are entitled ONLY to the base per-pupil allotment and nothing more. Charter schools are not entitled to share in any proceeds of any millage for any reason or under any circumstances. That was the deal the charters agreed to and that's the deal they're going to get. "Choice" (if you believe that charter schools actually represent choice) is a double-edged sword. Millage freeze-outs happen to be one of the many downsides of choosing a charter school.

Lisa Starrfield

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:11 p.m.

Duane, I taught in a charter school when I lived in another state and yes, I would still have voted to raise my taxes knowing it wouldn't have impacted my building. Schools matter. If that is your sole issue with this millage, then I recommend you vote for it and then put your efforts into passing a law allowing charter schools to receive funds from county millages. Of course, you will then have to determine if the money is attached to the student or the school. That is, does a charter school in the county get per pupil money for out of county students and do charter schools out of county receive per pupil funds from the millage for Washtenaw students at their school?

swmprnt13

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:05 p.m.

Folks the bigger issue here is the State of Michigan is much worse off than we think. If you think these cuts by our leaders in Lansing are just the start, wait until next year. There is no stimulus money next year to help those we elected to balance a budget that is so far in the red it is not funny. So if you are willing to look out for your community, yes that is Washtenaw county, not just A2, then you have something that can be controlled locally. Even those freshman legislatures who are trying to affect change are told to sit back and let the veterans take care of the budget. Big government has gotten out of control and there is not much you or I as a taxpayer in Michigan can do to affect it. If you continue to leave this in the hands of our leaders in Lansing, we are going to end up with such a mess of our education system in this state. Take charge of your community, yes that is the whole county not Ann Arbor, Dexter, Saline, etc. If not you are leaving your children's future in the hand of politicians that will keep cutting more budgets from the schools every year until we will back to the one room school house because that will be all that there is left to afford.

YpsiLivin

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:04 p.m.

Schools offer a wide range of classes, but only a subset of what they offer is required by the state. The schools should focus state money on those areas of the curriculum that are required by the state and should scale back or eliminate those areas that are not required by the state curriculum, or figure out other ways to pay for them. If students and their parents want elective courses, they should pay for those separately. They should also pay for athletic programs and bus service. Why should the school districts provide non required courses and services at the taxpayers' expense? "Pay to play" should apply to more than just sports. If students want to load up on non-required classes, they should do so on their own dime.

American Family

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 7:45 p.m.

Like I said before... I will vote: NO I think that the schools should use the money they have better. The basics first. Reading, Writing, Arithmetic, Science, History, Politics, Gym. Then the Arts. THEN the extra liberal "tree hugging", "For the children" waste of money classes. Don't get me wrong. I just think that allot of the money in schools today is being wasted on crud that should be taught in the home by the family. If little Timmy chooses to drop out of school, he will. Extra money to bribe him to stay will not work. Never has. Never will. Ask little Timmy's father to explain to him the virtues of a good education. Same goes for little Suzy. Have a baby at 12 equals ruined life for little suzy and her baby. Ask her mother AND father to explain that to her. The schools job is to get the kids ready to be literate, and adult functional when they turn 17, 18, or even 19. Social engineering, is not the schools job. That is the families job. If little Timmy and Suzy wants to learn, the school is there to teach. If they don't want to learn, then it is up to mom and dad to explain it to them. If they still choose to ruin their life... worry not; Correctional Officer Smith will have work for them to do, and help teach them how a good education could have helped them. Heartless? No. Realest. The schools get plenty of money to do their job. The Teachers do it well, when allowed. There is no need for extra money. Use what they have for what it is intended for.

sh1

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 7:33 p.m.

"Think about it,if you were a teacher at a charter school, would you vote for this millage,knowing the kids you teach do not receive any proceeds." I think I might have just pegged the difference between the two types of people posting comments here: those who vote based on what's in it for them, and those who are willing to sacrifice for the good of the greater community. I don't have kids but plan to vote Yes.

The Grinch

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 7:08 p.m.

Dagny J: So what? If teachers are overpaid and the job so easy, all of the blowhards on this page need to go to college and become teachers. They will, I am certain, do the job much better than those we have now and, I am also certain, they will lobby to reduce their pay and benefits once they have entered into the profession. Yeah, right.

Duane

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 6:55 p.m.

Lisa Starfield,what about all the kids going to charter schools,those schools do not receive a dime of this millage,just an increase to your pocket book. This millage is not fair to all. think about it,if you were a teacher at a charter school, would you vote for this millage,knowing the kids you teach do not receive any proceeds.

xyz

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 6:24 p.m.

Come on, it's just $250 per year (or less than a buck a day) for a quarter of million home. I would rather cut my personal spending than risk my children's future.

David Jesse

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 5:46 p.m.

All: Thanks for the conversation today. I've set a good chunk of my morning tomorrow aside for gathering data related to questions that have been raised in these threads, along with getting together all the stuff that has been sent to me. It's my plan - baring some breaking news - to publish that by noon tomorrow. I'll make one last call for questions or data to be included. If you have any, e-mail me at davidjesse@annarbor.com

DagnyJ

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 5:25 p.m.

David, Michigan teacher licensure laws are among the most restrictive in the nation.

The Grinch

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 5:16 p.m.

There are, apparently, many people on this board who think teachers are overpaid and work only half the year. So, I'm wondering: why don't they join the ranks and become teachers? That they don't can be explained by one of two words (they are not mutally exclusive): ignorance and hypocrisy.

glacialerratic

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 5:08 p.m.

This referendum affects all the school districts of Washtenaw County, with over half of the proposed millage revenues intended for districts outside Ann Arbor, where over half of the county's students go to school. Yet much comment only addresses the situation in Ann Arbor. There is a lack of information about what budget recissions mean for schools across the county, and what the impact of these cuts may be for the well-being of the county as a whole. Moreover, theres not much agreement about basic information on school budget and operations. We lack a complete and authoritative set of data about budgets, staffing and student activity for districts across the county. Without such information as a basis for discussion and analysis, arguments make heat but not much light. Especially at this critical moment, WISD and the school districts have an obligation to be fully and effectively transparent, and voices on both side of the debate have the responsibility to stop making inflated claims based on selective or partial information.

DagnyJ

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 4:48 p.m.

Sorry David :-) to pepper you with requests: does the WISD keep any of the tax money raised through the millage? Also, doesn't the WISD keep stats in HHI of its districts? If they don't, then what are they doing over there anyway?

DagnyJ

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 4:34 p.m.

David, how about the percent of children in each district who are considered disadvantaged? This is sort of the opposite of what I would like to see, which is wealth. Saline, Dexter, Chelsea are the three districts with the most affluent student populations. Ypsilanti is probably the least wealthy. It seems really crazy that the three wealthiest districts would get back more money than they put in. I recently saw a "100 best places to raise a family" lists, and Saline was on it. It was listed as having an average HH income as more than $94,000. Ann Arbor's HH income is about $51,000.

DonBee

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 4:33 p.m.

To the question on household incomes - the US Census Bureau has township by township and city by city numbers...for instance the link to Ypsi is: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=ChangeGeoContext&geo_id=16000US2689140&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=ypsilanti&_cityTown=ypsilanti&_state=04000US26&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=ACS_2007_3YR_SAFF&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null&reg=null%3Anull&_keyword=&_industry= So Ypsi has an average household income of $34,959 below the US average of $50,007 The County as a whole averages $51,990 Ypsi Township has household average of $48,435 Chelsea is $51,132 Dexter is $50,510 Dexter Township is $75,085 Superior Township is $56,622 Scio Township is $73,705 Ann Arbor Township is $86,797 Ann Arbor is $46,299 (no this is not a typo - there are a lot of student households) Manchester Township is $55,847 Lyndon Township is $71,595 Sylvan Township is $56,915 Sharon Township is $75,979 Lima Township is $68,531 Freedom Township is $62,321 Bridgewater Township is $68,011 Webster Township is $90,830 Lodi Township is $88,419 Saline is $59,382 Saline Township is $77,024 Northfield Township is $58,396 Pittsfield Township is $61,262 York Township is $84,232 Salem Township is $69,258 Augusta Township is $65,033 I hope this helps

DonBee

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 3:37 p.m.

Lisa - And the Unions (Teachers, Administrators) are funding the yes vote, so both sides are funded by people with a vested interest, what's new. Mckinley wants their apartments full, I can not blame them - we have one of the highest property tax rates in the whole of the US and one of the top ones in a state with both a sales and income tax. We are in the top 100 nationally. Teachers want a paycheck, again I can not blame them and want to see CLASSROOM teachers protected. The $25,000 number comes from a prior article from State of Michigan numbers - medical + retirement + other benefits - it is a COUNTY wide average and the Ann Arbor teachers - because of their higher salaries - pull the average up. as to $70,000 again that is a county wide average from the State Numbers and Ann Arbor again pulls that number UP in the county. As to working hard - read your contract in detail and then Read Plymouth-Canton's contract - I have family teaching in both and have read both - the Plymouth Canton Teachers are REQUIRED to do more for less money. I know teachers work hard - my Mother was one. BUT - if you read my posts - I am not after the teachers or their benefits - I am after the other waste that this and other school systems have. I would like to see the Ann Arbor teachers required to follow IEP's and some other clauses in their contract revised. But that is a small issue compared to the admin waste that goes on in most districts. I am an involved parent, so is my wife, I go on field trips, help sell stuff for class projects, help with evening activities, and my wife does more. We are not uninvolved folks out to make a point. As to the complains the No's don't have a program - read some of my posts - including the top 10 ways I am aware of to cut the cost of the AAPS - none of those 10 would hurt the teachers and in fact it would in many cases help. HardWorkingTeacher - I understand your frustration, but think about all the hourly UAW folks now working for 40 to 60% less base pay than they got a year ago and more than 70% less overtime, when they can get it. You have been insulated from what has gone on with most private employers in the county. Life right now is tough, people are losing jobs and leaving, we make taxes higher and the rate will accelerate. Yes we need good schools, but we need to scrape the gold plating off the administrative side, and use that to fund the classroom side. $4,000 a student for non-classroom is crazy.

David Jesse

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 3:26 p.m.

I can't track down average household income for most of these districts outside of the city of Ann Arbor. I'll keep looking.

DagnyJ

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 3:18 p.m.

David, can you provide a couple more numbers? What is the average household income in these communities. And what is the average value of a home in these communities? I'd like to see that compared to the "money raised by tax" and "money paid by district." Thanks.

a2edu

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 3:14 p.m.

Jennifer, divide the cost of running Community High by the number of students who attend. The per pupil cost is significantly higher than that of the other two comprehensive high schools. Now, we can ignore this fact and continue to wring or hands over what to do with the upcoming deficit.... or perhaps we can bump up class sizes to 50....or we can choose to manage taxpayer $ responsibly. Keeping Community open make absolutely no sense in this economic climate.

Lisa Starrfield

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 3:08 p.m.

My Kids Mom, $25,000 in benefits? Where did you get this number from? Someone is feeding you a bunch of lies. As for the question about great teachers earning more, the problem is that defining a great teacher can be quite political and if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person, suddenly you are no longer a great teacher even if nothing changes in your classroom. There is a reason our union has negotiated these rules; they are just arbitrary.

Lisa Starrfield

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 3:05 p.m.

DonBee Not only do I teach in Ann Arbor, I live in Ann Arbor and yes, it the millage is important. I want you to think about who is putting the money behind the NO vote... McKinnley, the company that is probably the largest land owner in Ann Arbor outside of the University.

sh1

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 1:46 p.m.

Where is this $25,000 benefit package idea coming from? Depending on the district, MESSA can cost from $9000 to $16,000, with much of that being paid by the employees themselves.

voter

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 1:11 p.m.

Not all teacher make $70000 a year and it takes a while to get there. Yes they have alot of time off but not everyone can do the job. No one is stopping the complainers out there from seeking employment in this field. You can chose your line of work last time I checked. Why don't we focus on the administration and thier spending habits and waste. We complain about salaries but its okay for the U of M football coach to make $4,000.000 plus benefits who doesn't teach any life lessons to his players. Where are the comlaints there on this. Yes the football program makes money but it should go back to the University after expenses but no the taxpayers take care of the other stuff. This is not the teachers fault but the schools need to live within their budget just like you and me.

My Kids Mom

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 12:22 p.m.

Please tell me the value of the benefits. I think it is = to $25,000. This is the real problem. This is not being discussed and this is the issue. David Jesse--feel free to pipe in here? If you do not know, it would be wise to find out. I think good teachers should make more than this--union treats everyone equally and does not allow for great teachers to make more. Thank you to the great teachers out there, inspite of you not receiving anything extra $$ for all your hardwork and inspiration, you are still committed. Blame your union. Also, what are the administration making? What are the benefits? The fact that know one is giving this information means we are not informed.

Jennifer Shikes Haines

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 12:03 p.m.

I'm tired of Community High School being referred to as a "golden cow". First of all, there are 3 - 4 students waiting to get in for every available spot, which indicates strong desire in the district for this type of program. 2. The Options Magnet program is run via Community and brings in extra revenue via students who, for the most part, don't tax district resources at all, yet bring in full, per-pupil amounts. This program is run through the extremely hard work of the overburdened CR monitors. 3. Community runs the CR programs and allows ALL our high school students to take classes at WCC, internships and all non-traditional course selections. 4. Community classes are open to non-CHS students via dual enrollment so they benefit ALL students throughout the district. 5. Community's facilities are WAY under par compared to the traditional high schools - the students and teachers get by with far less technology, special equipment and even decent climate control (ie. heat that works) so that they can maintain this program - the teachers have put up with extra work loads and minimal comforts for YEARS to make this program work. So... the "cash cow" is providing services for the ENTIRE school district, bringing in extra revenue that the district wouldn't have otherwise, and is putting up with lowered facilities, services and equipment... and they should be punished for this? Um... where is that logic? If you want to think about long-term solutions to spending, fine. Most of the comments here don't take into consideration that simply pulling out massive funding for this year is going to have major repercussions. Dialogue about budget cuts and preparations for those cuts may well make sense, but just pulling the rug out from under the county's school districts with no warning AND with increased demands from the state (have any of you that are commenting against the millage SEEN the new list of high school graduation requirements? These are adding to spending to a ridiculous degree - you want cuts? Go talk to Lansing) will do nothing but cause our schools to fail miserably, and yes, like it or not those cuts WILL hurt our children. I also back up all those teachers who have been commenting here saying that if you think they are overpaid, try walking in their shoes. What the current teachers have to deal with in terms of balancing the needs of all children, dealing with constantly changing state and federal requirements, working towards equity and lowering achievement gaps, etc., etc. we're lucky to have people who are willing to take on this job and show the great dedication and skill that the great majority of Ann Arbor teachers do.

a2girl

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 11:38 a.m.

hardworkingteacher, welcome to the 21st century. There is no such thing as job security. I don't think you can blame the voters for your possible job loss. The problem is much more complicated than that.

David Jesse

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 11:33 a.m.

Sorry to be late to these comments. Late night last night covering the former Pinball Pete fire. A clarfication for those talking about low class sizes for special education: Federal law mandates the education of special education kids and the student to teacher/teacher assistant ratio. Plus most special education costs a district incurs are almost completely reimbursed to the district by the federal government and the special education millage county voters passed a few years ago.

JonesM

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 11:25 a.m.

C Stead, You're right. Voting NO is not a plan. It's a statement! It's a statement that we simply can't keep throwing money at something that's fundamentally broken. My wife and I have been tremendous supporters of the schools over the years, but not this time. As others have suggested above, it appears to us that there are still many ways that the schools can cut overhead and improve education without requiring this millage. Until we have explored those options, it is simply not fair to hit already overburdened taxpapers with more taxes. Taxes are not the answer.

hardworkingteacher

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 11:24 a.m.

It must be nice to have a job that is not dependent on (misinformed) public opinion for job security. If this milage does not pass, I will not have a job, PERIOD. I would gladly go back to having a base salary of 40K (and I can count on one hand the number of teachers I know who actually make 70K) if it meant I got to keep a job I LOVE.

a2girl

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 11:05 a.m.

Lisa, your remarks are an example of the arrogance that is typical of Ann Arborites. I am certain that most of my friends, and likely yours, can "afford" the tax increase. But there are many people in my school community that are low income renters and their landlords are simply going to raise their rent in order to cover their increased tax bill. I'm guessing that for those residents, any increase is a problem.

Christine Stead

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 11:02 a.m.

Voting Yes Provides a Path for a Short Term and a Long Term Plan Voting yes on the millage achieves a few things that provide a short term plan: 1. The millage provides funding for operations, the very thing being cut significantly this year and for the foreseeable future. Funding could start to come as soon as January, which would provide some relief from the significant cuts we now have to address. 2. The millage provides us with some local control over school funding. Traditionally, Ann Arbor has considered education a priority. This is part of what made Ann Arbor such a great place to live. This was reflected by the 13.4 mills on homestead property that we had in 1994. Currently, we only have 7.4 mills on homestead property (a 45% decrease since 1994). The 2 mill increase will take us to 9.4 mills, still significantly less than how we used to value education here; but helpful in addressing a current crisis. 3. The millage allows us to avoid a complete catastrophe in funding. During the 5 years of the millage, we should investigate and propose reform of education funding. Right now, we lose a lot in the current structure. We only receive 38 cents on the dollar we generate, as the rest goes to other districts across the state. In Ann Arbor, this millage will return 71 cents on the dollar to our school, and all of the money stays in our county. Short Term Plan: Vote Yes on Nov. 3rd and help mitigate the crisis in state funding for our county. Long Term Plan: work on education funding reform that makes sense, reflects our community's values and is sustainable. Vote Yes on Nov. 3rd.

DonBee

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 10:56 a.m.

Lisa Starrfield - since you have admitted to being a teacher in other threads, I can see why this millage is important to you.

Christine Stead

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 10:55 a.m.

Voting No is NOT a Plan Let's go through what Voting No accomplishes. Besides nothing, it actually causes damage to our schools and community. Ask those recommending a No vote what their plan is. You'll quickly learn they don't have one. When Kathy Griswold was asked what her group's plan was, she had two ideas: 1) wait for the money to come from Lansing and 2) increase the sinking fund tax. The money isn't coming from Lansing. We now have a $525 cut per student to address right now. That's an $8.7 million deficit (based on a student count day for AAPS of 16,489). That means painful cuts now, even though we're already 2 months into the school year. The state has a $1B deficit to close this year and a $1.8B deficit for next year. The money isn't coming from Lansing. The sinking fund solution: Proposing that we need an increase in a tax is an admission that we do need increased funds (this from those opposing this millage). The problem with this solution is that the sinking fund cannot be applied to operations, which is the funding that's being cut. It also requires voter approval, meaning that it will have to go to a ballot. That also will take time - time that we don't have, since these budget cuts are happening now. Next year's deficit looks worse than earlier projections as well.

Lisa Starrfield

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 10:30 a.m.

Kate, I find it ironic that someone who lives in a $400,000 home (I base this number on your stated $400/year tax increase) is complaining that $70,000 is too much for an individual's income. It suggests that either you overbought when you purchased your home or your priorities are in the wrong place if you can't find $33 a month.

travelor

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 10:25 a.m.

Most of the cost cutting suggestions that have been made are long term solutions. They can't be put in place by second semester when the budgets will be slashed. How about some cuts that could bemade now and will keep our basic instruction intact. Here's a list: 1. Cut all AP classes. If kids (and parents) want college credit, let them go to college to get it. 2. If AP classes are cut, the 11th grade AC classes can also go. 3. Cut all music programs at the high schools. Orchestras, bands, choirs, public performances are all expensive and don't add to learning the "basics."4.If we don't have music programs at the high schools then they become "extras" at the middle and elementary schools as well. Make all athletics truly pay to play. Any team must be self supporting and raise all monies to meet their expenses.5. Cut the Humanities programs at Huron and Pioneer. These high powered academic programs based on college programs are expensive and serve only a select few students. If those students want college classes let them go to college. 6. Close all "alternative" schools. Community, And Ann Arbor Open can go. They may have waiting lists to get in but they sure don't fit the "basics" model. Then Clemente and Stone School can be closed as well. Those kids can return to the high schools they came from. If the A2 schools implemented those changes by second semester there would be no need for a millage and we would begin to get our schools "back to basic." Usually when we talk about cuts, we begin with those programs that will impact those students with the greatest needs first. If we cut from the other end we will not impact those students but will only cut programs that impact those who can do well in a "back to basics" model. Another plus is the teachers in those programs named above are usually the most experienced and most expensive. Without their special programs, they may leave the district saving even more money. Would these cuts create schools that you "No" voters would support?

Lisa Starrfield

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 10:20 a.m.

Picker, What do you do for a living if you only get 5 days off a year? No weekends, no holidays, no sick days. Just 5 days off a year as you claim.

hardworkingteacher

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 10:10 a.m.

For everyone who is saying that teachers make too much: First, I challenge you to spend one hour doing our job. Also, the passage of this milage does not mean a pay raise for teachers. However, if this milage does not pass several hundred teaching positions are slated to be eliminated. Somehow, I would guess that those who are complaining about higher taxes, will also be the first in line to complain when their children are in a class with 40 other kids next year.

A2K

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 10:03 a.m.

Just because somebody lives in Ann Arbor, DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE A MILLIONAIRE! My husband and I are squeezed tighter every year by rising property taxes and our basically flat wages since 2000. Adding another $400 to our property taxes each year IS a big deal, so we're voting NO. Tighten your belts like the reset of us -- and last I looked, 70K a year as salary is way above average for a family of 4 in the U.S. so quit whining.

DonBee

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:41 a.m.

Want to fix the costs in Ann Arbor? 1) Open and competitive bid on the health care for all employees - Blue Cross has stated they can offer the same contract as the teachers get now for at least $2000 a year less per teacher - if we let everyone compete - we could cover the gap from the state with that one change - and provide the same benefits to everyone. 2) Drop PowerSchool - it was a $1 million dollar deal with a $300,000 annual maintenance cost that the school was going to use to keep the teachers and parents on the same page, but because training has not been done, most teachers don't use it for that purpose 3) Follow the recommendations of $150,000 busing study the school commissioned - right now the whole cost is wasted because none of it has been adopted 4) Centralize procurement and grant writing at the WISD for all schools (include the charters please) 5) Remove from "Teaching Staff" anyone who does not have student teaching contact - make them administration - so that their roles are transparent to the public - right now we have a 16:1 teacher to student ratio, but almost all classes are bigger than that, since many teachers - are not in teaching roles 6) Get the administration ratio down to national averages - that would eliminate about 25% of the administration staff in the school - and move more money where it belongs - in the classroom 7) Align coaching staff sizes and pays with schools like Plymouth-Canton - they have 3 high schools and 1 athletic director - AAPS has 2 and will have a third when Skyline is fully populated in 2 more years. 8) Move the rest of the students to Skyline this fall - don't wait another year - if you are going to clean and run the building - fill it. Better yet - Move Community High into the building NOW and close the old building - put it on the market as surplus and allow some developer to buy it - use the money to pay down bonds or as part of the rainy day fund. 9) Create one county wide technology department at WISD to support all the districts and charters - and move the best of the people who are running servers, networks and software to open group there. 10) stop chasing special projects - like the equipment for the 1 day a year 4th grade demonstrations - yes it is a pain to work with Oakland County and schedule the use of their equipment - but it is less than the $20,000 the schools want to spend for equipment that would then sit in storage for 345 days and year and would need maintenance each year before it could be used. If we did this - no teacher would see a cut, there would be no impact on the students, the cost of running AAPS would go down enough to cover both this year's and next year's cuts. I am sure others know their own top ten that could be added to this list and we would really save money.

sh1

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:33 a.m.

Picker and others: I think the problem here is a misunderstanding that teachers are only working while they're at school. Hours are spent daily checking papers, planning, contacting parents, etc. Summers are spent keeping current on research and certification. You could argue they work 360 (or maybe you mean 365) days a year as well.

Alan Benard

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:32 a.m.

a2edu said: "But the fact is (and I know this as an AAPS employee)"Anyone who really works in education who makes ignorant and regressive statements like these should be removed from the system.

Alan Benard

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:30 a.m.

"3. 20% of the AAPS student population is "special ed." Cut overly generous services to that special interest group, and you'll see those numbers start dropping. Many special ed classrooms have 3-6 students in them, lowering the averages you see in student-teacher ratios. We cannot afford to continue this trend."Fortunately for us all, we don't let attitudes like this reign anymore. We don't shove the disabled into warehouses, we don't throw kids out of the system for the way they were born, and we recover the potential of intelligent young people with learning differences. It costs money and it is mandated by the state school code and the ADA.I feel nothing but disgust for statements like this. It is shameful.

mytwocents

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:28 a.m.

in4mation- I don't recall complaining about my job. And I can't think of a time when I heard a single teacher complain about being overworked and underpaid. Is it a tough job? You bet! But it's a rewarding job and a way to contribute to the community in which I live while still bringing home a pay check. I won't be quitting, but do hope to see the day when the teaching profession is respected a bit more.

The Picker

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:22 a.m.

I stand corrected, 210 mandatory days. I also do planning for my job 360 days a year. The differance is that I'm expected to be on the job close to 360 days year

a2girl

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 9:22 a.m.

I could not agree more with a2edu. I would suggest that Ann Arbor Open also be closed, or at the least eliminate their bus service. The parents of Open students drive them to their bus stops. Why they don't take them all the way to school is a mystery to me. In many school districts busing has gone to a pay to use service. I think many parents in Ann Arbor would support this. I would certainly rather pay for my kids to be bused to school than see my tax dollars being sent to EVERY OTHER school district in Washtenaw County to be used whatever way they want.

dogpaddle

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:57 a.m.

There are obviously several readers who are very ill-informed and should get their facts straight before commenting. Even though my school district very generously pays for SOME of my health care, I personally pay over $600 a month for the right to have health care and that is before co-pays and deductibles that we agreed to pay more for this year while not taking a raise. Paying for my health care is my second largest expense after paying for a place to live. Over the last seven years, I have watched my take home pay go steadily down due largely in part to the rise in health care costs. And the reader who thinks the AVERAGE salary is 70K a year? That's near the top of the chart after decades of service and with multiple degrees (that we also have to pay for ourselves). And in what other industry does the public get to decide employee salaries? But despite the fact that some people think we are overpaid and under worked, we won't stop coming in day after day to do our absolute best to impart knowledge and model proper behavior to your young people in spite of the fact that public education is suffering from reform burn-out and severe budget cuts.

mytwocents

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:34 a.m.

The Picker- Students are usually in school for 180 days. Teachers work more than that. The "3 months off" notion is a common and untrue statement. I don't know a single teacher that only works the days specified in a contract. (Which, still would not provide the 3 months off that people think.) I wish folks would stop bashing teachers and look at the real issues.

sh1

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:29 a.m.

180 is the number of student days, not teacher days. Teachers typically start the year 2-3 weeks before the students come back to prepare classrooms and attend professional development. Similarly, teachers take additional time to close their classrooms at the end of the year. Drive by an elementary school any weekend and you will be sure to see teachers' cars in the parking lot, as many choose weekends to do their planning. Summer is the time most teachers take mandatory classes to maintain their certification (which they pay for out of pocket). They also work on new curriculum plans during this time. And still, most of them love their jobs, despite constant public criticism!

mytwocents

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:29 a.m.

Not every district uses MESSA. Teachers and support staff ARE paying for insurance in most districts. Some paraprofessionals don't even get benefits. Regarding the extra curricular clubs, almost all of them are run by teachers and are completely voluntary! The club I advise does not receive a single penny from the district. Over 75 students participate. I don't see how cutting this would benefit the district (or the taxpayer) in any way. I've stated in previous posts that there is some false information being shared in some posts. Please do your research and take an honest look at schools to see what they have been doing to cut costs. I believe several districts and WISD have posted information about cost cutting measures and consolidations. In addition, please remember that this is a millage for all of Washtenaw County, not just Ann Arbor. I think the problems stem from the tax structure in our State, but is your NO vote going to send legislators a message or just harm local students and communities?

Lisa Starrfield

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:28 a.m.

PaperTiger, Teachers do pay a premium for our benefits. We've also exchanged pay increases to protect those benefits for years.

a2edu

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:22 a.m.

I could cut 6 million in three minutes from AAPS without students feeling a thing: 1. Fire all failed former principals and other administrators from their "jobs" counting paperclips at the Balas Administration building on State St. Why are we continuing to pay their top salaries and benefits for absolutely no benefit for students? Fire all non-essential Balas employees - especially nepotism hires. 2. Why does AAPS need a full-time spokesperson? Isn't that the Superintendent's job? Eliminatethat position. 3. 20% of the AAPS student population is "special ed." Cut overly generous services to that special interest group, and you'll see those numbers start dropping. Many special ed classrooms have 3-6 students in them, lowering the averages you see in student-teacher ratios. We cannot afford to continue this trend. 4. As so many of us knew from the start, AAPS had absolutely no business building Skyline. Ultimately, it's the voters' fault for going along with that huge financial blunder. But since the horse is already out of the barn, there are schools that need to be closed: Pittsfield Elementary, Stone School and yes, the biggest golden cow of them all - Community High. 5. Three words: pay to play. 6. Eliminate 7th hour at the high schools. The bussing is just too costly. 7. While we're at it, eliminate bussing. Rather, spend by giving needy students bus passes, which is cheaper than keeping a fleet of busses and drivers. Now, if these measures fail to make up for the deficit, then obviously wages and benefits will have to be cut. But the fact is (and I know this as an AAPS employee) there is still a tremendous amount of waste in the Ann Arbor public schools (see cut options 1 and 2).

The Picker

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:17 a.m.

$70,000/year is a bit of stretch, don't the teachers only work 180 days? How about the support staff? Do they only get 180 days worth of benefits? My teachers always taught me a year was 360 days!

sh1

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:10 a.m.

Paper Tiger: Teachers already DO pay for their benefits. MESSA is not free. Teachers have a large premium, deductibles, and co-pays. RonAnnArbor: Many of those clubs and activities you see as fluff are actually run voluntarily by teachers. They are not in the contract or budget. But, kids like them, so teachers do them.

AAW

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 8:02 a.m.

Why does it have to always be the teachers and unions fault? What about how the state funds the local schools.

K Thompson

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 7:51 a.m.

Yes, pick on the teachers, typically an easy target. In communities outside of A2, people do not make as much money, their 'formula' is different, their tax base is smaller, their income is less. This is for the benefit of the group, the county, to ensure the stability of the public's schools. The Public. Get it?

tchrmom

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 7:22 a.m.

I hope people don't forget that teachers are some of the most critical people in children's lives. Even at babysitting wages, teachers still aren't compensated for the hard work they do. I would challenge ANYONE to be a teacher for a week in any school district before they start to talk about how they are "overpaid". On the other hand, the wasted money on unnecessary programs in the largest district in the WISD is frightful. Let's consider a new high school that is a huge financial drain and should never have been built, as well as many programs that continue to be purchased even though we have the resources and intelligence to take care of these areas (i.e. reading deficits) without the fancy computer programs. We MUST spend responsibly, before we start to criticize the salaries of many very hard working people.

A Voice of Reason

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 7:18 a.m.

Our school model is not working. Michigan math achievement is some of the worst in nation. Over the years, the teacher's unions, school district attorneys, Johnson Controls, school designers, etc. are the largest contributors to the Citizen's Millage Committee. Does everyone have their hand out? Where is the kid's lobby? The AAPS hired a consultant Norm Hubert to help with the millage and will not release his salary under the freedom of information act until after the election. We are guessing he is making between $500-$750,000 on this and this may be low. School board members received donations from the MEA to their election funds in June --there is not election coming up. Probably a thank you gift for supporting a contract that Ann Arbor cannot afford. Also, one board member's drug company has ties to the union too. Who is representing our kids!!!! Remember, $15.6 million is coming from Ann Arbor and only $11.2 million is coming back to our kids. Keeping our money in our community is important. Think what $5 million would do for our homeless people here. Keep our money in our community.

GoblueBeatOSU

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 6:56 a.m.

PaperTiger is right. I pay $600/month for my medical insurance, plus co-pays and deductibles. Until it is proven that the school's benefits are par with the rest of us that have to pay for our benefits I'm voting NO and I encourage everyone else to vote no. "teachers, who have an average salary of more than $70,000 a year". At $70K per year teachers can pay a portion of their benefits like many other working people. If you are making $70K you are well paid. Vote NO

HappySenior

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 6:48 a.m.

Thank you for compiling the numbers. If I lived in Ann Arbor, I would be furious. This "plan" intends to pull $4.4 million out of Ann Arbor residents' pockets and give it to the other school districts. Was it Democrat Dillon who started the ball rolling on filtering excessive benefit costs out of government jobs? Lansing should get rolling on that. All government workers should receive benefits as approved by one contract. How much money could be saved if each school district didn't have to negotiate with all these unions separately? Why do teachers and administrators get a pension and life-time health benefits? Who else gets that? Maybe it's time to take a hard look at the MEA, NFT, and the other unions. They are labor unions interested in the benefits of their members. They are not interested in the education of Michigan's children. There are school system employees besides teachers who make a living from the public largesse. When the school system is looking for more money they can spend, they put the face of the teacher out in the public's mind. There is a massive support system behind a school district they don't want the taxpayer to notice. I am not impressed by the scare tactics being used by WISD. I am voting NO on this millage.

PaperTiger

Sun, Oct 25, 2009 : 6:16 a.m.

Open up the teacher contracts and show the voters that the teachers are willing to do what is necessary. Start paying for your benefits like the rest of us have to do. Get in the real world and don't expect the voters to continue to subsidize them. Geez. Why is that so difficult to figure out.