Motorists versus bikers: Los Angeles road rage incident shows drivers losing it
Christopher Thompson, center, with his lawyer, Peter Swarth. Thompson was convicted of six felonies and a misdemeanor after he stopped his car abruptly, causing two bicyclists to crash into his car.
AP photo
Prosecutors said Thompson stopped in front of the cyclists after passing them and shouting at them to ride single file, The Times reported.
"Cycling-related accident rates are decreasing, but cycling injuries are getting worse. That suggests that riders may be tangling with something more than a mere fall, like a car door or fender. Daum writes. "And though most drivers, mercifully, don't harbor as much animosity as Thompson, I suspect there may be more of him out there than we might like to think.
"... Cyclists make a lot of us feel like lazy slobs. ... Whereas drivers' carbon footprints grow more beast-like by the hour, cyclists create no exhaust other than the sweet fatigue they feel as they drift off to saintly sleep at night.
"Of course, moral superiority is insufferable, but you still shouldn't try to run it off the road or teach it a lesson with the family car. You might win on the street, but in court, it's a different story.
Comments
nonyo
Thu, Nov 12, 2009 : 5:27 p.m.
The comments here are very predictable. Those who feel somehow threatened by someone riding a bicycle present false and unreasonable arguments demanding that they be banned from the streets or somehow licensed. They have probably not ridden a bicycle since they were 12, and certainly have no idea of what it is like to commute daily, or recreationally race a bicycle in sanctioned, licensed, events. Obviously, we would be better off if everyone rode a bicycle for short commutes and minor shopping trips. The health of everyone would improve, demand for foreign oil would decrease, and stress levels would drop considerably. It is just as obvious that some of the posters here are clueless, and nothing can cure stupid.
KJMClark
Wed, Nov 11, 2009 : 9:12 p.m.
"In Montgomery County, there is a speed limit for bicycles: 15 mph." If I wrote, "In Ann Arbor MI, there is a speed limit for motor vehicles: 15mph.", the vast majority of readers would read that as, "In Ann Arbor MI, they've set a general speed limit for motor vehicles of 15mph.", not, "In Ann Arbor MI, there is a road where the speed limit for motor vehicles is 15mph." The first statement would be patently false. The second is true. The roads in Bandemer and Gallup Parks are 15mph, since there's a provision in state law that allows for 15mph speed limits in parks. The rest of the paragraph LF wrote makes it sound like anywhere in Montgomery County, a cyclist might get away with traveling 20mph, but they'd be breaking the 15mph speed limit. But since that speed limit applies only to a 5 mile bike path, not the hundreds of miles of roads in the rest of Montgomery County, that's pretty misleading. WRT studded tires, we're clearly not talking about the same tires. I recommend you search for "studded tires ice" on line. You'll find that studded tires provide the best possible traction on ice, but most states ban their use for *motor vehicles* because of the road damage that can result. Here are some pages: http://www.icebike.org/Equipment/tires.htm, http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=151, http://www.consumersearch.com/snow-tires/studded-snow-tires. "I agree that bikes have 2 axles like cars do, but so what?" LF listed that as something bikes don't have. "You claimed that a car blowing a tire was as dangerous as a bike blowing a tire and that is just not true." Actually, I would claim that it's more dangerous, since an out-of-control bike isn't likely to hurt anyone else. However, my point was that it would be just as ridiculous to limit motorists to 35mph as it would be to limit bicyclists to 15mph based on rare things like blowouts that result in loss of control. "I think his friend is right. You are one of those people who cause problems and then refuse to take responsibility and blame your mistakes on others." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad%20hominem - "Ad hominem: 2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument." http://www.annarbor.com/useragreement/ - "AnnArbor.com Rules of usage: 1.4 [...]You agree to refrain from [...] personal attacks when using the Website." And since you're now resorting to personal attacks, I'll take a page from LF's book and move on to other things.
Bill Wilson
Wed, Nov 11, 2009 : 11:38 a.m.
KM, A bit of Googling brought up the blog page for me, and I found another site with a few pictures, as well. Looks to me like there is a speed limit in place and the pictures show that it's pretty flat. I won't bother asking what your point is, as I'm sure I'll get another "all depends what 'is' means" type answer. That's enough for me. I'll leave you, the professional bicyclist with magic tires that don't slip to have the last word.
dreamcatcher
Wed, Nov 11, 2009 : 10:32 a.m.
KJMClark, I read the links you provided and I read again what Longfellow posted. The blog link you provided is by a man who is complaining about the speed limit imposed on bikes. I have copied it below. 'This Sunday's Washington Post reported that Montgomery County will be posting speed limit signs along the 5 1/2 mile section of the Capital Crescent Trail between Bethesda and the DC line. 15 mph.' All Longfellows friend said was that there was a speed limit for bikes in Montgomery county. It seems that he is right. Why would the blogger complain about a speed limit that does not exist? The other claims you make do not make much sense either. I agree that bikes have 2 axles like cars do, but so what? You claimed that a car blowing a tire was as dangerous as a bike blowing a tire and that is just not true. I have rode bikes all my life and have tires like you describe and your claim about their safety is also not true. They are okay in the snow, but they are useless when you hit a slick patch of frost. Frost is ice. I think his friend is right. You are one of those people who cause problems and then refuse to take responsibility and blame your mistakes on others.
KJMClark
Tue, Nov 10, 2009 : 11:07 p.m.
Longfellow, really, you're just digging your hole deeper. If there were a speed limit of 15mph for bicyclists, I would go no faster than 15mph or move to somewhere not so anti-bicyclist. "According to Jim, roads are often the most slippery when it first begins to rain or frost, so KM's claims of safety due to his studded tires carry no weight. His claims about a automobile blowing a tire are not material: cars have 2 axles, special gearing, and tires built to maintain control; bicycles do not." Have you ever even seen a bicycle? Bicycles have two axles, believe it or not. Did you know that motorcycles have two axles as well? I bet you meant to say four wheels? Bicycles have special gearing; my regular, fair weather bike has 24 of them, which allow me to travel from 3mph to over 30. There's a whole industry, with many of the same manufacturers as the automobile tire industry, that make a far wider variety of bicycle tires than automobile tires, for the purpose of maintaining control under the wide variety of conditions that bicycles are used for. Do you or your friend know what a studded snow tire is and what it's for? In northern Europe, and in some places in North America, people put studded snow tires on their bikes to bike across frozen lakes. There is no better traction available on frost and ice than carbide studs. If we go to a parking lot that's a sheet of solid ice, a cyclist with studded tires could bike circles around any car you choose to drive there. That's the point of studded tires, to let you maintain control in icy conditions. I'm calling your bluff. You made up your friend "Jim" didn't you? I just searched through the Montgomery County MD County codes, checking every single hit for "bicycle". You can find the online version of that code at http://www.amlegal.com/montgomery_county_md/. There is no such code that says the speed limit is 15mph for bicyclists. Just for thoroughness, I did a Google search for "Montgomery County bicycle speed 15". I found that you're almost right. There is a section of the Capital Crescent Trail with such a speed limit. You can read about it here: http://www.commuterpageblog.com/2008/06/bicycle-speed-l.html. That's similar to the Gallup Park path, which probably should have a speed limit for cyclists. But that's not a regular road. I would like you to ask your imaginary friend "Jim" what code says the speed limit for bicycles on all county roads is 15mph.
Bill Wilson
Tue, Nov 10, 2009 : 7:26 p.m.
Hi Dreamcatcher, You made an interesting point as to an officer's ability to use his discretion in determining whether someone is traveling at a speed that is unsafe as per the road conditions. I am only a part-time AA2 resident: the rest of the time I reside in Montgomery County, Md. My neighbor is a MC policeman (we'll call him Jim), and I asked him to read this page and answer a few questions, namely, why is there a speed limit of 25 mph for slow moving motorized vehicles, but no speed limit set for bicycles? His answer: In Montgomery County, there is a speed limit for bicycles: 15 mph. According to Jim, a bicycle rider in MC could probably drive as fast as 20 mph (fast, for a bicycle) and not be cited for a ticket: MC is fairly flat and people capable of riding at 20 mph are rare. Hence the reason there are generally not speed limits on bicycles: the average speed of a bicycle is between 9-12 mph. No one would expect that a bicycle would be operated near the maximum speeds designated for slow moving vehicles. In fact, Jim says that he has never written a speeding ticket to a bicyclist. The tickets he's written were mostly for operating a bicycle in areas designated for pedestrians. According to Jim, roads are often the most slippery when it first begins to rain or frost, so KM's claims of safety due to his studded tires carry no weight. His claims about a automobile blowing a tire are not material: cars have 2 axles, special gearing, and tires built to maintain control; bicycles do not. Quote: if the guy really is doing 30 mph, it sound to me like he's going too fast for the conditions. I'd give him a strong warning, and if I saw him doing it again, he gets a ticket, and depending how he talks, maybe I impound the bike. A lot of people make the claim that high speeds are not dangerous for them. They tell us that they're great drivers. We've heard that before. Those type refuse to take responsibility, and often times after they're involved in an accident they will try to sue anyone they can. This is why many officers come down hard on people... it's because of people like this.
nonyo
Tue, Nov 10, 2009 : 4:12 p.m.
I just checked my Garmin from today's ride. I hit 42.9 mph! Woo Hoo!
KJMClark
Tue, Nov 10, 2009 : 10:38 a.m.
Where to start? Dreamcatcher, let's do some quick math. I bike to work five days a week, and bike to Farmer's Market on Saturday about 3/4 of the time. I often bike with my family on Sundays as well, so I'll just count every Saturday. I bike year round, in everything but heavy snow and rain. I've already put a studded snow tire on my front wheel to deal with flash frost on lane lines. I've been doing this for most of the 23 years I've been in Ann Arbor, but I'll only count 20 years. That makes 20*50*6*2 trips, or about 12,000 trips by bike. Do you really think you know better than I do what road conditions I can face? Really? Think about your argument for a motorist. At any point, something could happen that could cause a tire to blow out. That could cause a motorist to lose control of their vehicle and potentially threaten them and others around them. Does that mean that motorists should stop traveling faster than 35mph or so, regardless of the speed limit, despite their years of safe driving faster than that speed, and despite all the evidence that such a blow out in a properly maintained vehicle is rare? And how, pray tell, is it disrespectful to anyone to travel at a legal speed that I can demonstrate from long experience isn't a problem? I'm puzzled by the idea that motorists would rather be behind a bicyclist doing 15mph in a 35mph zone than a bicyclist doing 30mph in a 35mph zone. As for traveling at a safe speed for conditions, obviously I would only go that fast under fairly ideal conditions. Really, I'm not as stupid as you might think. That part of Huron tends to have a fair tailwind, which makes for smooth air. It also has a long, straight downhill with excellent sightlines. The only concerns are the frequent sidestreets and driveways, and the narrow lanes. However the narrow lanes are not a problem for a bicyclist, and if you see traffic on a sidestreet or driveway, all you have to do is slow down. If I were to receive a ticket for doing 30mph in a 35mph zone with ideal conditions, I would be happy to take it to a judge for their opinion, and I'd be pretty confident the judge would decide I wasn't doing anything wrong.
dreamcatcher
Mon, Nov 9, 2009 : 8:51 p.m.
KJMClark I had to comment. I rode bikes all my life. All it takes is a strong wind or an errant tire to kick up debris on a roadway and at 30 mpg heading downhill you are asking for it. If you choose to put yourself in harms way, fine. But wiping out at that speed could send you sprawling on the roadway and then you are putting drivers and pedestrians at risk. Driving is hard enough, we dont need that. And you are quite wrong about it being legal. When you are on a bike you are subject to the same laws that car drivers are subject to. If the police determine that you were travelling at a speed that was too fast for the road conditions you are subject to a ticket. Respect is a two way street. If you want it, try giving some out yourself.
KJMClark
Mon, Nov 9, 2009 : 8:14 a.m.
Really, you'll stop at no length to manufacturer a problem, won't you? You may think it odd, but I routinely reach a peak speed over 30 mph on my bike. It's about every third day. Yes, in my 20+ years of biking in Ann Arbor, I've seen many rocks, branches, etc. I'm certified to instruct the League of American Bicyclists Road I course, so I'm well aware of potential problems. Traveling on a bike at 30mph in a 35mph zone, on a well-maintained bike, on clean sections of road, that I travel everyday, with good visibility, is not much of a problem, and certainly not illegal. I do appreciate your concession that the motorist that tried to cause a crash did something wrong. You might want to look at Bicycling Street Smarts (http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/index.htm) or What Every Michigan Bicyclist Must Know (http://www.lmb.org/index.php/resources/downloads/86-what-every-michigan-bicyclist-must-know) for more information on what cyclists should be concerned about.
Bill Wilson
Sun, Nov 8, 2009 : 2:06 p.m.
"Longfellow, having been there, and seeing and hearing this behavior many times before, and hearing the driver yelling obscenities out his window at me, I can assure you that he wasn't warning me. Let me restate what I wrote to clarify it for you. The motorist got less than a car-length behind me, laid on his horn for several seconds at least two times, and then yelled obscenities out his window as he passed in the adjacent lane. Besides, the ordinance you're citing deals with cyclists bicycling two abreast, which I wasn't." If the driver behaved in the matter as you claim he did, he was certainly in the wrong. He should have been cited, as in the California case. But let's look again at what you wrote: "I was "taught" this "lesson" years ago by a motorist while heading home from work on Huron. The motorist was ticked off at me for being in the road, even though Huron is four lanes and I was doing 30 in the 35 zone (there's a nice downhill run heading into town)." Thirty miles an hour on a bicycle while going downhill, with cars passing you???? Did you ever stop to consider what might happen if your tire hit an unexpected hole, or a stone, or a small branch that got swept onto the road, and you lost your balance? If you regularly drive a bicycle in this manner, it's small wonder why you find yourself in verbal battles with drivers on a regular basis. You were both at fault.
KJMClark
Sat, Nov 7, 2009 : 11:14 p.m.
Longfellow, having been there, and seeing and hearing this behavior many times before, and hearing the driver yelling obscenities out his window at me, I can assure you that he wasn't warning me. Let me restate what I wrote to clarify it for you. The motorist got less than a car-length behind me, laid on his horn for several seconds at least two times, and then yelled obscenities out his window as he passed in the adjacent lane. Besides, the ordinance you're citing deals with cyclists bicycling two abreast, which I wasn't. And he didn't "stop short." He got in front of me, slowed down to my speed and came to a screeching halt, dead in front of me. Luckily for me, I had already started slowing down. With due respect, you really don't understand the laws or situation you're talking about.
nonyo
Sat, Nov 7, 2009 : 10:10 p.m.
Longfellow, you are citing club rules, not law. Time for a driver's training follow up for you, or maybe a remedial reading comprehension course.
Bill Wilson
Fri, Nov 6, 2009 : 7:03 p.m.
Edward, Yes, that is a distinction. However, Km was inside the road. He/she tells us as much: I was "taught" this "lesson" years ago by a motorist while heading home from work on Huron. The motorist was ticked off at me for being in the road, even though Huron is four lanes and I was doing 30 in the 35 zone (there's a nice downhill run heading into town). He blasted his horn at me a few times, yelled at me as he passed in the left lane, then got in front of me and slammed on his brakes. Luckily for me, I saw it coming (after 20 years of biking on Ann Arbor's road-rage-against-bicyclists streets, you learn what to look for). Even so, I only barely managed to go around him on the right. So, the driver honked his horn as he prepared to pass. According to the Ann Arbor bicycle code, this is exactly what the driver should have done: 10:164. Riding abreast. Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride abreast when a motor vehicle traveling behind bicycles operated abreast sounds its horn. At sounding of the horn the bicycles shall be operated single file until motor vehicles traveling behind have had an opportunity to pass them. Source: http://www.wbwc.org/aa_bicycle_code.txt KM assumed that the driver blowing his horn is doing so out of anger, when in fact, the driver may have simply sounded his horn to make KM and any other bicyclist aware of his presence. KM is operating his bike at a high speed while going downhill, and most likely ignoring the driver. The driver may well have feared striking KM. Now, he should not have stopped short. However, KM should have acknowledged the driver's signal horn. So yours is a distinction without a difference: they were both at fault.
Bill Wilson
Fri, Nov 6, 2009 : 1:49 p.m.
KJM wrote: "I was "taught" this "lesson" years ago by a motorist while heading home from work on Huron. The motorist was ticked off at me for being in the road, even though Huron is four lanes and I was doing 30 in the 35 zone (there's a nice downhill run heading into town)." Don't be too smug, you too, were breaking the law: (7) A low-speed vehicle shall be operated at a speed of not to exceed 25 miles per hour and shall not be operated on a highway or street with a speed limit of more than 35 miles per hour except for the purpose of crossing that highway or street. Source: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(yhlzrf55l3uijwrynkmdxb55))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-257-660 Frankly, you were both behaving poorly by placing others who may have been on or near the road at risk.
KJMClark
Fri, Nov 6, 2009 : 8:10 a.m.
Rrrrrodney, if it were a tractor you were behind, would that make you as upset? A motorist with their flashers on? A traffic light that turned red? I'm trying to figure out if it's different because it's someone on a bike, or if you get upset if anyone slows you down. I was "taught" this "lesson" years ago by a motorist while heading home from work on Huron. The motorist was ticked off at me for being in the road, even though Huron is four lanes and I was doing 30 in the 35 zone (there's a nice downhill run heading into town). He blasted his horn at me a few times, yelled at me as he passed in the left lane, then got in front of me and slammed on his brakes. Luckily for me, I saw it coming (after 20 years of biking on Ann Arbor's road-rage-against-bicyclists streets, you learn what to look for). Even so, I only barely managed to go around him on the right. I think most people around here, who haven't biked to work or market or whatever, really don't appreciate the level of animosity toward people on bikes. People must think we cyclists make it up. It doesn't seem to matter how many times people who bike point out harassment as a problem, or how many studies say it's the biggest problem for cyclists in Washtenaw County, not much happens until someone gets hit.
kevinmil
Fri, Nov 6, 2009 : 7:09 a.m.
What, no link to the original story? This seems to be it: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cyclist3-2009nov03,0,761131.story