Independent_Thinker

Thu, Apr 5, 2012 : 6:07 a.m.

I'm curios "Say It Plain". Let's make a different story and replace Zimmerman with a guy named "John" who is 40 years old 6'0" 185 of pure muscle and works out daily with killer cardio and also happens to train 4 times a week with his handgun and is a crack shot with killer reflexes. Now let's say some punk named "Elmer" (a white 17 year old dude) who is 6'5" 180 pounds decides to take a swing at John while he's walking down the street for no reason. John gets hit in the gut twice from sucker punches, but he's in great shape and really doesn't feel it, but he has no idea who Elmer is and can tell he means business. Elmer says "I'm gonna kill you man" John says' "stop" but Elmer keeps coming. As Elmer goes to throw another punch John's lighting reflexes get his gun out and he fires 3 times dropping Elmer and killing him. John calmly keeps an eye on the body of his attacker making sure the threat to his life stays down until the police arrive. It seems like in your opinion this would be all John's fault because he wasn't pudgy and weak. Because he chose to be prepared it's his fault. Or did Elmer just stupidly mess with the wrong guy? This is hypothetical and I don't mean for this to directly represent Trayvon or ZImmerman. I'm just curious as to how you would answer this question.

shutthefrtdoor

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 8:23 p.m.

I saw the video...and I also noticed the police officer gazing at the back of Mr Z's head intently. If there wasn't anything there he would have just glanced at it IMO.

Scylding

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 3:44 p.m.

@Say it plain: I apologize, I shouldn't have said that you toggled to saying that he was a "commando." Please substitute the word "imply" for "say." It was the "fit and 'ready for action'" bit that got me.

Scylding

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 2:41 p.m.

@say it plain: I will say what I said elsewhere, and that is that I was expecting more trauma. But this morning, I noticed something I think you missed. I missed it at first, too. Watch the video again. Expand it to full-screen, then pause it at points spanning 1:06-1:07. I am seeing a long slice and surrounding redness on the back of his head. Remember, you're watching security footage under flourescent lighting, which does weird things to colors. I really do think there is some damage to the back of his head. As far as blood on the clothes, he's wearing a red jacket and you are looking at, again, a grainy security video under poor lighting. Hardly the best conditions to be trying to spot red drops or dots. It's a little weird how you are jumping on his fitness. Before, folks favoring the "Trayvon side" were going nutzoid talking about how Zimmerman weighed 250-300 pounds and Trayvon weighed only 140. I was all over 140 with TM being 6'3"; not feasible. Now, as expected, the 140 number is giving way to 150-160. And now, in this video, we see a much smaller Zimm, probably about 170-175. These guys were fairly evenly matched, it would seem. Yet now that the weight differential is all but gone, you toggle to saying he's a commando and that that is what made him "ready for action" and dangerous. You can't have it both ways. I'd say, given Zimm's frame, he's probably 15 pounds pudgy, but otherwise, yeah, not in bad shape. But that doesn't exactly make him a commando. Also, if you listen to the 911 tape, the guy is panting after running for only a short distance. Not in super great shape. Again, I was expecting more trauma, but I'm not going to go with "nothing there," and I think you would be making a mistake if you were to stick with that. People aren't being careful enough. They aren't taking the time to listen and look. They are jumping to the conclusion they want. Don't fall in that trap.

mun

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:17 p.m.

At least they're more objective than the right wing leaning ClusterFox. As for "what makes you think they're not doing their job, " the fact remains that George Zimmerman killed Travon Martin. Also, why were they not allowing this detective to go through with the investigation.

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:19 a.m.

What is it in the article that makes you think that the Sanford police are not doing their job, mun? That is your implication, right?

shepard145

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:42 a.m.

Anyone still watches abc "news" and believes a word they say?? LOL These clowns are as useless as MSNBC and CNN. The sooner they go bankrupt the better.

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:43 a.m.

I am saddened by people who want to use the ruse of imaginary rights being denied as an excuse to deny us real rights that we currently have.

shepard145

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:37 a.m.

That's because some refuse to face the truth, that guns preserve the peace unless in the hands of criminals. It's a tough lesson that one pacifist after another learns the hard way when they are victimized. Criminals don't acquire guns legally, which is a common problem with criminals. Like the stand your ground law, this case has zero to do with guns.

say it plain

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:43 p.m.

yes, @Scylding, I am sad to think that the terrible non-job that Sanford police did at the crime scene and shortly afterwards will mean that key evidence needed to address Zimmerman's claims and state of mind can never be had. I am very glad at least that Martin's parents successfully fought to get outside authorities to come in and 'investigate', because there appears to be good reason to distrust the investigation Sanford police had been conducting on their own. I wonder what else will come out about Zimmerman that might speak to his 'issues' surrounding playing police-officer.

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:57 a.m.

@SIP, the investigation never stopped. The police did continue on with the investigation. And don't forget, Zimm was not released at the scene. He was taken "downtown" for questioning. I suspect he didn't even have his lawyer there, at least at first. Who knows how long it was between the time he was taken to the shop and finally released. I don't. Is there an account of this? Anyway, I think there is one thing you and I can agree on. The case is fascinating, absorbing, and tragic. I want justice, for both men. But I don't want anyone's rights to be trampled. I hope that the police did actually do a decent job and that many of these questions can be answered to most people's satisfaction. However, I don't know how likely that is to happen.

say it plain

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:23 a.m.

But since when do state attorney generals' offices weigh in at the level of a local police force's *investigation*?! How could a prosecutor's office, and one fairly far removed from the case at the time, the *evening it happened*, come into play about whether an investigation can even go forward? Of course there wasn't enough evidence...none had been collected by the police at the scene, another odd fact about this case! I can't wait to hear from this homicide investigator, who made an official statement that he remained unconvinced by Zimmerman's account. Did he perhaps indicate that there may be *other* accounts out there? We know that people have come forward claiming that the police had been uninterested in hearing about what they had to say. Did he perhaps wish there would be more evidence collected that night, but he was stopped from collecting it? While I do not want to suggest a 'cover-up', I surely want to suggest that there were even *police investigators* who wanted to make a charge here, but were somehow deterred. The State Attorney General's Office, says this article, says "no comment" about the story, but I presume it will come out, as will the witnesses whose accounts of the events throw Zimmerman's into question. I don't know how common it is for an investigator to have to call the State AG's office if he feels like the person who just shot someone to death isn't giving a consistent, believable story. I don't know how it is decided at the police force level to arrest someone for manslaughter, and at what point it is decided that any further investigation is a 'violation' of the rights of the killer. We will learn all about it I suppose. But it seems just *odd* to me that the investigator had to file a statement claiming *he* wanted to continue on with an investigation because something didn't feel right about Zimmerman's claiming self-defense, but he had to back off, per the AG.

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:12 a.m.

Glad you brought the article to light, SIP. I can't help but notice, however, that you corrupted the key point of the article. You said that the officer in charge "*... did not believe Zimmerman's version of events*" (your asterisks). The actual clause was ""he was unconvinced (sic) Zimmerman's version of events." (I put a "sic" in there because there is a "by" or "of," or some such word, missing there.) Your version could mean that the officer totally disbelieved Zimmerman's whole account. The actual version could simply mean that he saw enough inconsistencies that he thought a charge of manslaughter would be feasible. By doing this, you set it up so that it would seem like the state attorney's office totally contravened the lead officer's adamant conviction that Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter in order to let Zimmerman go, as if they told the officer to disregard condemnatory inconsistencies; in other words, you are inferring that there was a cover-up. In fact, what the state attorney's office did was say that there was not enough evidence to charge him at that time. Police officers are not lawyers. I imagine it may be fairly common for state attorneys to render decisions that differ from the opinion of officers on the scene. Any criminal lawyers want to speak to this? Anyway, as the investigation is still underway, that could change. It has been possible all along. You may get your earnest wish yet, but the upshot is, there may be nothing sinister at all in the state attorney's actions.

shutthefrtdoor

Fri, Mar 30, 2012 : 12:20 p.m.

I agree Scy...honest debate is very healthy IMO. I believe it is what our Congress and other elected officials need to embrace right now. Both sides are guilty as sin. When I hear them talk, I get reminded of PeeWee Herman..."I know you are, but what am I?". There is an old Indian tale of the porcupines that I like to share with those that "fight" in my group. One very harsh winter all the animals were dying in there dens from the subzero temperatures...the wise elder porcupine called all of his offspring together and told them that they must huddle together to survive. After a short time of huddling they broke off and went their own way only to start dying off again. The wise old one called them back and told them..."you leave your brothers side because his quills poke you, irritate you, and cause you pain. But in order to survive this hardship, we must look past those little bothers and appreciate the benefits your brothers provide". The porcupines survived to prosper. IMO...That's what we Americans need to do. Don't sweat the small stuff Scy. We probably don't disagree as much as you think. Take care my brother.

Scylding

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 9:56 p.m.

@shutthefrtdoor: Well, we'll be going head to head in other threads, I'm sure, but it's good to have you as an ally in some areas. Thanks for your candid response. I think, because of the rise of the coastal populations, the Democrat party didn't need the south anymore, so they threw out God, guts, and guns, to a large degree and moved hard left where the progressives wanted them to go. It's a sad thing, IMO. I just listened to an interview with Jimmy Carter by Laura Ingraham, in which it was noted that he took every state in the south during his election and that that was the last time a Democrat was able to do that. In the interview, he also indicated that he does not support abortions other than those due to rape, incest, and if the mother's life is in danger. He went on to note that he thought that Jesus would not approve of such abortions either. I cannot imagine a guy like him, or one even more in support of God, guts and guns, ever winning the Democrat nomination again. Interesting stuff. The republican party has some changes to make, too. We're trying... See you around.

shutthefrtdoor

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 8:25 p.m.

Sorry for the scetchy writing...I was doing three things at the same time. Where's the EDIT BUTTON!! Dang it! LOL

shutthefrtdoor

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 6:03 p.m.

Thanks Scy...I appreciate the kind words. Actually my views on common sense and constitutional rights date back to when I was a young serviceman. I have had different views in the past. In my position now I am able to relay those positions in my party. They have GOT to see that their positions on self defense make us look stupid. All those views do IMO is make us look unAmerican. The reason I choose to vote Democrat is jobs and labor issues. I just don't see a lot of love from Republicans when it comes to the middle class. I do see the GOP playing on the fears of guy's like me and all the while lowering our economic power by hoarding all the jobs and money. And quite frankly no one will take my rights without a fight... ; ) I've posted here before that if my party would leave the gun issue alone...they would probably get the lion share of voters support. My opinion is you don't have to be a passivist and a victim to be a Democrat. God, guts, and guns built the Democratic party...and it's high time we go back to our roots!

Scylding

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 3:38 p.m.

@shtthefrudoor: I don't know if you will see this, but I salute you for your independent thinking. You are at odds with almost everyone in your party, it would seem. This event does seem to be thwarting normal expectations. For example, I was not happy with how Santorum characterized Zimmerman. He said something about him having a "sick mind." Way out of line. While I can see where @shepard145 is coming from in his assessment of the Democrat platform, I again give you credit for your strong postings on this thread. In all sincerity, is this giving you second thoughts about your party, though?

shepard145

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 11:49 p.m.

In general, this generation of democrat leaders making all the news for your party are weak kneed cowards who crave laws to protect them from the slightest offense. They are excel at law suites, calling the press to tattle on others, back stabbing their neighbors and fear the decisive moral certainties of Christianity. They claim to support women, except those they disagree with and muslim women, who have been sacrificed on the alter of political correctness. They are also stingy, offering little but free advice to those in need, preferring "the government" take money from successful members of society. Think of Rosie O'Donnell, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Maher, MIchael Moore and the bitter Dave Letterman.

shutthefrtdoor

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:09 p.m.

Let's not group everyone together...I'm a Democrat and I believe Mr Z was completely justified.

mun

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:39 a.m.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674

Skyjockey43

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:58 p.m.

Oops that comment was supposed to be directed at say it plain

Skyjockey43

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:57 p.m.

Genetracy, the similarities are, or should be, glaringly obvious. In the Duke case, the University, the local (and national community), the press, the clergy, and major political figures all rushed to judge the lacrosse players guilty before all the facts had come out. I guess you don't see any of that happening here huh? In the Duke case it turned out that the lacrosse players were completely innocent of the crime all the people had already convicted them of. Maybe the same thing will happen here, and maybe it won't. But we won't know until all the facts have been revealed in a court of law.

say it plain

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 8:51 p.m.

And you've decided that these cases are analogous because....? huh?

say it plain

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 8:48 p.m.

We should be "ashamed" because Trayvon's mother didn't want people to make money off printing "Justice for Trayvon" or "We are all Trayvon" hoodies and bumper stickers?! The shame coming from....? Thanks for playing... the "they're all the same, *those* people...false accusers and questionable motives all..." game that seems to come from a shame-worthy impulse imo...

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:06 a.m.

Feiger, that's JUST who we need involved in this case... Ugh!

Salem_Resident

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 7:30 p.m.

Does Feiger have an office in Florida?

a2citizen

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:30 a.m.

The New Black Panther Party? To paraphrase the old black panther party, it appears as though George Zimmerman defended himself by, uh, "any means necessary". For which he should be applauded.

Salem_Resident

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:22 a.m.

Correction - more details keep showing up if you dig deeper. Tray-von was 6'3" complete with gold teeth, several tattoos including one that covered his upper arm. He was pretty active on Twitter as Slimm (@No_Limit_NI**a). The account was closed shortly after his death but there are plenty of google cached images and messages. http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer Want to see a picture of George Zimmerman when he's not in county orange? http://thegraph.com/2012/03/george-zimmerman-is-an-hispanic-democrat-does-spike-lee-know-teamdueprocess-does-and-we-dont-care/

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:17 p.m.

(Got cut off) ...doing more than that, but I am out of space.

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:14 p.m.

@Eric Ebel. You say you are giving Zimmerman "the benefit of the doubt" in positing that he "sought out a confrontation." I think you are doing just the opposite. I just listened to the 911 tape one more time, and to me, it seems he just is trying to keep TM in sight so he can direct the police to him. He doesn't want him to "get away." One possible interpretation of the evidence on the tape is that Zimmerman stops running shortly after the dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that," because the wind dies down. Supporting this, Zimm then says that he doesn't want to give the dispatcher his whole home address because "I don't know where this kid is." He isn't running anymore because he lost sight of TM; he's afraid to say his address because TM could be within earshot, for all he knows. This corroborates Zimm's report to the police, in which he stated that he lost sight of TM. Not surprisingly, TM was far faster than Zimm. What happened then, none of us can presume to know. All we have is Zimm's statement, and the next eyewitness evidence we have is a witness seeing TM on top of Zimm "beating him up." I am surprised an attorney would just assume that one party "sought out a confrontation" when there are no facts to back that up, and a statement on the part of one that it isn't the case. Zimm claims that TM confronted him then decked him. Also, you suggest that it was TM's race alone that made Zimm suspicious of him. On the tape, initially, Zimm answers the dispatcher's question about TM's race by saying "he looks black." Initially, Zimm said nothing about race, saying only that he looked "real suspicious" because he was "walking about" and "looking at the houses." It's only after TM starts to walk toward Zimm that Zimm states confidently that he is a black male. You are spinning it to make Zimm out to be a racist aggressor. You are doin

Eric Ebel

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:34 a.m.

Michigan Compiled Laws 780.971 et seq. It may not be exactly like Florida's, but it does prevent the establishment of a "retreat rule." If Trayvon's father did not live in the neighborhood, I stand corrected. The point remains that Zimmerman apparently thought there was something wrong with an African-American kid, who wasn't breaking any law, being there. And the kid ended up dead. I presume I have that right.

USRepublic

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:53 a.m.

Ericebel..... Actually.....Michigan does not have a stand your ground law as Florida does....check your facts....if they matter that is... BTW...Treyvon's father did not live in the gated community...check your facts.... Thanks for your rendition of the facts.... And.... Thanks for playing....

1bit

Fri, Mar 30, 2012 : 1:56 a.m.

I thought, Hot Sam, that we weren't privy to the facts. You now know what Trayvon said to Zimmerman? I rest my case.

mun

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 12:40 a.m.

The 911 dispatcher told George don't follow him. Why did he follow Trayvon then?

Hot Sam

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 10:35 p.m.

No, Travon needed to say "good evening Sir, I am staying with my dad and just heading home from the store"....at that point nothing else would have happened...

dairy6

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:24 a.m.

Skyjockey, maybe your right. I just listened to the tape and that's what i thought i heard him say. Never went to ccn or watched any talking heads on tv since I don't have one. Furthermore, I never said anything about who attacked who or what happened for that matter. I only commented on what I heard. As for USrepublic stick your snide comments where the sun don't shine.

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:31 p.m.

Oh, I mean I agree with Skyjockey and a2citizen. USRepublic didn't say what he heard. Oops.

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:29 p.m.

The CNN spot where they use their enhancing equipment and play the clip over and over is here: http://latinorebels.com/2012/03/22/cnn-runs-isolates-audio-of-controversial-zimmerman-911-and-questions-still-remain/ I love how the CNN talking head, in typical Mainstream Media fashion, says "the word we are listening for is "coon.'" No leading there! I agree with Skyjockey and US Republic, I am hearing a "p" at the front end of the word, and that word could well be "punk."

a2citizen

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:26 a.m.

@skyjockey. Thank-you, I had listed to the CNN audio a couple days ago and they were trying to sell the word as "coons". I wasn't certain what was said. After listening to it again a few moments ago I agree with you...the word sounds more like "punks".

USRepublic

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:49 a.m.

Thanks for your rendition as well DA6.... Thanks for playing.....

Skyjockey43

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:17 a.m.

Actually Dairy you need to check out the 911 audio that has been enhanced by CNN. What was originally reported as a coon is quite clearly the word "punk". Having said that I will now sit back while someone claims that punk is now a racist term. Additionally, you need to look at the police report that states Zimmerman sustained abrasions to the back of his head, along with a broken nose, which would back up his claim that he was attacked first. This also matches the statement of a witness at the scene who unequivocally states that Zimmerman was on the ground being pummeled while screaming for help before the shot was fired.

USRepublic

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:47 a.m.

Thanks for your account of the circumstances...... Thanks for playing

say it plain

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 12:28 a.m.

mess!

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:55 p.m.

Absolutely, what foresight.

Stuart Brown

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 3:27 a.m.

Not true. You don't need to see a gun to justify lethal force; that's why one should do everything possible to avoid an engagement (as Martin was trying to do.) I once had a martial arts instructor who liked to say that there is no such thing as a fair fight because someone has to lose and the loser won't think that is fair--his point was that any kind of fight is serious business. Hands can be just as deadly as a gun. Gun experts advise people to never draw a gun unless they are prepared to kill someone in self defense, the same applies in hand-to-hand combat. Did Zimmerman shove Martin or get up in his face in a threatening way? Remember, Zimmerman had no right to detain or even interrogate Martin let alone touch him. I have no doubt that Martin was concerned about his safety from his girlfriend's description of their phone conversation just before his murder. Martin was trying to avoid Zimmerman when the girlfriend said she heard Martin say something like, "Why are you following me?" and Zimmerman saying something like, "What are you doing here?" The girlfriend says she then heard what sounded like a scuffle and then silence. "What are you doing here?" is a hostile statement since it implies Martin had no right to be in the neighborhood. Zimmerman appears so wrapped up in what he was thinking, it appears it never occurred to him how threatening he must have been to Martin. He should have answered Martin's question with an honest answer and not a hostile question. Saying, "I'm the neighborhood watch captain and I don't know you" would have been better. The 911 tapes show a lot of hatred by Zimmerman towards Martin; Zimmerman did not handle this situation well.

shutthefrtdoor

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 6:52 p.m.

Good post jjc...and to add a point. Mr Z was on duty as a neighborhood watchman...it was completely expected for him to follow Mr M if he was an unfamiliar face in the area...no matter what color he may have been.

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 1:17 p.m.

I've been thinking about what you said here, jjc155, and I think this is a big point. In legal matters, it certainly matters who initiates a conflict, but escalation is also a very big deal. If TM really was bashing Zimm's head into the ground after decking him, I think this could prove very exculpatory for Zimm. If you listen to the 911 recordings, the screaming goes on for some time. If it was Zimm screaming "help" over and over, it demonstrates, at the very least, that he was trying to pursue a different course of action other than shooting TM. Then, Zimm says TM went for the gun. This would be another exculpatory item, if true. It's looking like the folks looking for a murder conviction will have a steep, uphill battle.

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:05 p.m.

And, due to the fuel on the fire, we're now getting mob-ransackings of stores. http://www.local10.com/news/Police-Trayvon-protesters-ransack-store/-/1717324/9719674/-/xctonpz/-/index.html

shutthefrtdoor

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 6:53 p.m.

Wrong place, wrong time for a post like this. The evidence is proving different...IMO

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:54 p.m.

Really HBA Really

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:34 p.m.

@HBA: you said "there was no statement in the police report that Mr. Z ha a broken/bloody nose." Page 7 of the police report pdf, words of Timothy Smith: "While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying (sic) on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and from the back of his head."

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:09 p.m.

Thanks for your version of the "facts" Much appreciated....perhaps you might want to heed your own advice.....

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:25 p.m.

I do not identify with either of these men, racially. It never occured to me to do so. I ignored the story, at first. I had my mind on other things. When it didn't subside, I looked into it, and it didn't take me long to see that there was a mainstream media snow job afoot. It had all the hallmarks. To begin with, the first thing you see: the photos. The photo of Trayvon, a winning photo of him as a smiling, clean-cut looking 12 or maybe 13-year-old, not as the 17-year-old he was, much bigger and, as we have come to find out, with gold all over his front teeth. Next, the photo of Zimmerman, an un-smiling mug shot from an arrest years ago (charges dropped), complete with the criminal-orange jumpsuit, taken at a time when he was allegedly heavier than he is now (according to his attorney); true to form, the MSM chose this over the later photo of him as a trimmer man with a big smile, in a shirt and tie. Then, the claims that Trayvon was "just like any other teenager" who loved innocuous things like baking cookies for young relatives whom he babysat, not a kid who, frankly, was headed toward big trouble, on whom school authorities had found a screw-driver and a watch and jewelry, and who had been caught defacing lockers with profane graffiti and carrying a pot-residued baggie. The problem is the snow-job. It forces those of us who want to see a level playing field to fight the propaganda. If TM were the one with the blood coming from his nose and the back of his head and we had witnesses saying that they saw Zimm on top of TM, beating him up, I would be writing very different posts. As it is, I think the bulk of the early media reporting was ridiculously biased against Zimm and needed serious correction and explication. I did not do this out of racial identification; I did it because I hate the MSM and the narrative of racial division that it promotes.

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:13 p.m.

I agree with this. I found myself getting defensive about Trayvon because people were discussing his background in an attempt to either victim blame or minimize what happened,. The folks defending are probably doing when people talk about his past criminal behavior- I understand. I can really only speak for myself as one black male, but I think for black people , it strikes a nerve that a young male minding his own is mistaken/labeled as a home invader, and that a hero is going to intercept him. That's where all of this discussion is coming from (in my eyes). The events after were certainly tragic, and Zimmerman will have his fair day in court- but there is a larger shift of perception that we as a nation needs to go through. The other day on his show, Bill Maher said basically that our country needs stories like these every now and again to take a look at ourselves, and I agree.

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:51 p.m.

Sure we do

genetracy

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:36 p.m.

Or better yet, the former members of the Duke lacrosse team.

Skyjockey43

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:10 p.m.

Absolutely. Let's have more ministers who declare a person guilty before proven so by a court of law. Perhaps you should ask Richard Jewell if we need more ministers like this.

Skyjockey43

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 10:47 p.m.

All violence is unacceptable? You really believe that? I'd love to visit your magical land of unicorns and rainbows sometime. Imagine one of your loved ones is being viciously attacked by a crazed killer. Since ALL violence is unacceptable I suppose you'd want the police to simply ask politely that the attacker cease his objectionable behavior? And I suppose you would advise Roosevelt, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, that he should simply secure a promise from Hirohito that in the future, perhaps they could sit down to a nice beer summit rather than that nasty little unprovoked attack.

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:45 p.m.

Rebecca, It appears your pastor (and derivatively your church) find it acceptable to rush to judgement without regard to our Constitution or the laws of the state of Florida...... We all know better in our hearts......

shutthefrtdoor

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:37 p.m.

I'm glad you're proud of your pastor and church. I disagree with the rest of your post...vigorously.

1bit

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 9:17 p.m.

USRepublic: I find your condescension amusing, but unhelpful. You quote me saying something I did not and thn selectively cut and paste my comment together. You have made up your mind. Again, Zimmerman is the instigator (yes, "by definition", because he was the one who started the conflict). At a certain point, we all have the right to walk down the street without an armed, self-annointed, civilian harrassing or interrogating us. I don't know, and neither do you, what was said between the two but obviously it ended poorly.

mun

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 12:06 a.m.

Video of George Zimmerman the night of the shooting. There is nothing on his head and nothing on his back. http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

maallen

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:59 p.m.

Scylding 1 0 Stuart

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 1:50 p.m.

@Stuart Brown: (Previous response pulled, trying again). I will put this as plainly as I can. You just said (cutting and pasting): "Your immediately preceding comment claimed you had searched wikipedia for a reference to the girlfriend's phone call to Martin just before his murder and not found a recording." No, I didn't. You are misquoting me. What I said was that I went to Wikipedia and that I (cutting and pasting) "Could not find a recording of the girlfriend's conversation w/ TM, which you said was there." I just proved that you said it was there, but like McCavity, it wasn't. Furthermore, even if I followed the footnote, there was no recording. I just proved above that you said there was a recording; there isn't. Now, I have proved that you misquoted me in trying to deny this fact. How many times must we go back and forth before you admit you made a mistake?

Stuart Brown

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 5:58 a.m.

Scalding, the egg is still on your face! First, I had initially thought the released info was a recording and later learned it was an account of an interview with the girlfriend. Once again, your disingenuous and glib cherry picking of the facts comes through since you quote from a much older quote. Your immediately preceding comment claimed you had searched wikipedia for a reference to the girlfriend's phone call to Martin just before his murder and not found a recording. This is technically a correct statement but completely obliterates the truth that the same wikipedia article documents a release of phone records at citation #49 that also reports what the girlfriend says she heard. I would also add that given the release of the phone recordings from the terrorists involved in a large suicide attack in India, I would not be surprised if actual recordings exist of Martin's phone conversation to his girlfriend. I have responded to your so called proof that Martin was stalking Zimmerman and in fact, Zimmerman's statements to police claim exactly this. The proof that Zimmerman was not in fact chasing after Zimmerman is disputed by the statement from the girlfriend which once again shows how crucial the final phone call is. The existence of the girlfriend on the phone right at the time of Martin's murder is a key piece of evidence, one which you seem loath to acknowledge. It has also recently come to light that an officer who questioned Zimmerman the night of the murder did not believe Zimmerman and thought he should be charged with man slaughter (a charge I think is more appropriate.) Did Zimmerman set out to kill Martin? Probably not, but what there is ample evidence of is a lot of hatred by Zimmerman towards Martin. It is still an open question if he used the word "coons" or "punks" but either way it shows contempt and hatred that was over-the-top. It's clear you want Zimmerman to walk--an outcome that will offend millions.

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:33 a.m.

@Stuart Brown: Quite to the contrary, I'm seeing the egg back on ya', because in response to Rosarium's protestation that Wikipedia is not a reliable resource, you wrote: "Finally, there is in fact good source material like the voice recordings of Martin's final call to his girlfriend and 911 calls." That's a cut and paste; no changes, scout's honor. (It's above if you want to verify.) So, "who said anything about a recording?" You did. Sheesh, talk about cognitive dissonance! As far as my "need to believe that Martin got what he deserved," I don't believe that at all. I just don't think Zimmerman deserves what you are trying to give him. The question is, why are you disregarding the facts that are exculpatory for him? In at least two places, I have challenged you to back up your prosecutorial claims with facts. You have yet to do so. First, however, I would like you to explain how you think the men came into contact after Zimm lost sight of TM, as I asked just above. TM could have continued on and left the neighborhood; Zimmerman was no longer pursuing. The inescapable conclusion (in my opinion) is that TM circled back to find Zimmerman. Could it be that he was looking to give him what he thought he deserved, just like you are?

Stuart Brown

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:51 a.m.

Scylding, you now have egg on your face. Who said anything about a recording? Go to reference #49 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travon_martin . Martin's girlfriend was on the phone with him seconds before he was murdered and she is talking publicly. The cognitive dissonance on your part is revealing; you obviously need to believe that Martin got what he deserved no matter what the facts are. Good going, apparently the threat of lone nuts with guns on the loose does not bother you as long as they're not shooting you, I presume. Zimmerman has a conviction for battery on a police officer, a violent act. Martin has no convictions.

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 5:04 p.m.

@Stuart Brown: I looked at your vaunted Wikipedia entry on the event. Could not find a recording of the girlfriend's conversation w/ TM, which you said was there. There was talk of the attack from behind in news reports, and then there was talk of Zimm having said that TM decked him in the nose, etc. If Zimm really claimed both, there would be a contradiction. Can you prove that he claimed both to the police, with good sources? There are plenty of things those of you trying to convict zimm are avoiding. Like the fact that Zimm did stop following TM after the dispatcher said they "did not need him to." He stopped because he had lost sight of him, which he indicated late in the 911 call when he said that he had "no idea where this kid is." One wonders how TM, who apparently had out-run Zimm, came back into contact with him. TM's father does NOT live in that neighborhood. If TM had out-run Zimm and was continuing home, OUT of the neighborhood, why did the two meet again? Did you ever think of that?

Stuart Brown

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:22 p.m.

Thugs like Zimmerman realize that the dead don't talk, but now days, the dead carry cell phones that are sometimes on when the deal goes down. In this case, Martin's girlfriend heard the deal go down; why no mention of this on this thread? Martin was doing what a responsible person should have done, avoiding a conflict with a threatening individual when that individual approached him. Zimmerman is heard saying, "what are you doing here?" after Martin asked why he was being followed. This first hand witness account shows Zimmerman lied about the circumstances leading up to the shooting to police since he claims to have been jumped from his rear while waiting for police. The boy is dead and Zimmerman has no right to a self-defense claim. Martin would be alive if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and let police handle the situation.

USRepublic

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:17 a.m.

1bit....offers a 2bit reply..... He seems to know the facts......."must have been there......" and...by "definition" assumes Zimmerman was "picking a fight". Thanks for your version of "the facts" 1bit...... 12 1/2 cents is becoming increasingly worthless as this discussion moves on to reality... Thanks for playing.....

1bit

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:59 p.m.

I don't think you know what the term "sucker punch" means. By everyone's account, Zimmerman approached Martin. Zimmerman is the instigator, by definition. Call me old fashioned but you don't go picking a fight unless you are ready to finish it. The only reasonable explanation is that Zimmerman felt empowered by his weapon to instigate the conflict. The blow-by-blow is somewhat inconsequential in my mind as the result was set in motion by Zimmerman's initial actions. That's not media hype - there are 911 tapes. Again, apparently Trayvon's problem here seems to be that he didn't pull a gun and kill Zimmerman. Stood his ground with something besides his fists.

shutthefrtdoor

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 7:46 p.m.

Really?... "poorer fighter" = being sucker punched and having ones head bashed against the concrete? Bottom line is that this wild fire has been lit by the sensationalist media before the truth finally leaked out. This happened a month ago people. The media had plenty of time to present the facts before they SO irresponsibly lit the match. Remember what Smokie the Bear said???

1bit

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 7:32 p.m.

Scylding: The logic you are using has internal contradictions. Your argument (with selective cut/pasting) is to imply that Zimmerman was justified in killing Trayvon because Trayvon was actually the attacker. Because Zimmerman is a poorer fighter is no justification for his actions. Moreover, with your logic, Trayvon's fault was using his fists rather than pulling a gun and killing Zimmerman outright.

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:04 p.m.

@Leftjay: I cited evidence that the police provided that says that Trayvon engaged Zimmerman. You simply claimed that it was the other way around and simply said "we've all heard that." They key is: from whom? You said that Trayvon knew Zimm had the gun, but you base it on nothing. Sorry, you are not doing what I am doing. You are making stuff up and citing no reputable sources.

shutthefrtdoor

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:02 p.m.

I don't believe there was any "brandishing" based on the OS article. It appears that Mr. Z responded to the request of not following and was returning to his SUV when surprised from behind. If Mr. Z had his weapon drawn I highly doubt Mr. M would have allegedly punched him and jumped on top of him. The authorities will be able to tell how close the weapon was from Mr M when it was discharged.

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:01 p.m.

It's pretty hypocritical to say "I will sit back and say "let the courts decide" and then in the next sentence talk about "the facts"..... Unbelievable.....give it a rest and "let the courts decide"

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:45 p.m.

I guess it would depend on when the gun was brandished right? No muddying, just offering a rebuttal to what you put out there. I will do exactly what you are doing: putting things out there that you want the public to know about the case (that is why you are cutting/pasting), and then I will sit back and say "let the courts decide". He engaged Trayvon after being told not to follow. We all heard that. He could have turned around as soon as he got the order, but didn't. That's what I am putting out to the public, "now let the courts decide".

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:40 p.m.

@Leftjay: If it is true that Martin attacked Zimmerman the way Zimmerman said he did, that could hardly be called "standing his ground," and would be a far greater escalation of the situation than simply tailing somebody. Also, you suggest that Martin knew that Zimmerman had a gun. That would mean that Zimmerman had drawn it and was brandishing it about before the two even engaged physically. I've seen nothing to suggest that that was the case. Please, quit muddying the waters with these speculations that are based on nothing but your imaginings.

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:27 p.m.

The fact that Zimmerman followed at any point after being told not to is troubling to me. If you follow me in an aggressive manor (I think Trayvon knew Zimmerman wasn't following him to ask what the score of the all-star game was), and you have a gun, I might react as what I might think is defending myself. Trayvon was standing his ground too. As for the school suspension, what people fail to realize is that when folks paint him as "innocent", they are talking about this event. Zimmerman had no knowledge of Trayvon's background. He could have been an MIT scholar on break. He wasn't planning to do a break in like Zimmerman thought. Zimmerman had no reason to engage him, just like he wouldn't have a right to engage you

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:42 p.m.

If this really is Trayvon, I think we can all see why the media needed to use outdated pictures of him.

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:44 p.m.

I think Obama spoke too soon on this....hard to believe I know.

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:40 p.m.

We all know this will never happen, she is not going to admit she was wrong just as others who spout here won't.

mun

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 10:30 p.m.

George Zimmerman had brushes with the law too. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320_1_robert-zimmerman-domestic-violence-online-petition

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:22 p.m.

Thanks for the link. This also lines up with the one witness whom I have heard actually saw the men interacting. He said Martin was on top of Zimmerman "beating him up," as I have indicated above with a link to the interview. He stated that, by the time he made it upstairs, the man in the grey sweatshirt and had been on top was now on the ground and looked like he was dead.

thecompound

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 7:58 p.m.

Zimmerman's past was trotted out and used as an argument for his guilt. The photo they used of him until recently was that of him wearing an orange jumpsuit from a 2005 arrest (charges were dropped). So it is not surprising that Martin's past is being looked at. There are just too many "i think this happened" statements floating around and then being repeated (gotta love the web) as fact. With all the investigations going on, it is prudent to wait for the facts. It just sickens me though how the MSM is manipulating information and playing with peoples emotions and sensationalizing this case. I'm glad the parents were able to get the case reopened, but once carpetbaggers like Sharpton came in, it has become nothing but a circus, and that is unfortunate.

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:56 p.m.

Lefty, Since you must have been at the scene (since you purport the facts), I'm sure you can explain away the difference between the police report and your version of events. Again....a rush to judgement on your part......it's beginning look like the early rushers are going to have egg on their face.... Tawana Brawley anyone?

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:40 p.m.

I won't call you foolish, because we are debating on the little we both know- noone's foolish. The only thing I was responding to is the intial engagement after being told not to (which we all heard), and the idea that Trayvon having tattoos or whatever affected this situation. I guess I am just confused- is that supposed to mean that people shouldn't have sympathy for him, because he had tattoos and was shot while walking home from getting candy? This wasn't gang on gang violence, this an adult shooting a young man after engaging under the false assumption that he was there to break in someone's home. All other aspects aside, that is what Zimmerman called 911 for in the first place, which we all heard. Trayvon thought he was some creeper (indicated on his phone call), and Zimmerman thought the kid was going to rob someone. Both were mistake (well), but the adult's assumption proved fatal.

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:31 p.m.

Lefty, In case you didn't notice I didn't state what the facts of the case were...only you did..... Again.....read your own posts....you seem to know precisely what took place.... A rush to judgement can make people look very stupid.

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:19 p.m.

You don't know all the facts either, or do you have access something that I don't? All I'm saying is that Trayvon wasn't banging or drugdealing when he interacted with Zimmerman. He was getting candy from the store during halftime of the NBA All-Star. Delving into his character beyond his interaction with Zimmerman (and the events leading up to it) is all that matter. Give me some non-MSM info about the case, not a profile of the victim.

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:32 p.m.

Lefty....believe what you want to believe from the MSM... Those who are critical thinkers will start with the facts.... Pictures don't lie....besides....you don't know all of the facts....you are guessing at best.

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:29 p.m.

He wasn't gangbanging or drug dealing that today, even it is true. He was walking where he belonged (in his dad's neighborhood), and was engaged by an adult with a gun who was a stranger to him. Whatever his background doesn't justify being followed (especially after 911 operator told Zimmerman not to), and subsequently shot. Zimmerman didn't know anything about gangs or drugs in relation to Martin. He simply thought Martin was there to break in someone's house, foolishly engaged him, and made a fatal mistake.

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 4:14 p.m.

His MySpace page.....is the ultimate source. But since you are interested read the article the MSM refuses to write... http://patdollard.com/2012/03/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealing-gangbanger/

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:54 p.m.

On what source are you basing this claim?

Skyjockey43

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:16 p.m.

Your church leader has denounced one of God's people publicly before all the facts are in. And you want to pray for fairness? Physician, heal thyself.

Rebecca Mase

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 6:35 p.m.

thank you Paul! Rebecca

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:39 p.m.

Why don't we let our law and judicial system figure this out instead of all this mob mentality flaring up?

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:27 p.m.

Whenever someone dies tragically, the positive images are shown. Kids dies of drug overdoses all the time for example. On the anti-drug ads, when the parents are talking about how heroin or ex. killed their daughter, do they ever show the "party pics"? Come, come now.

janeqdoe

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:17 p.m.

It's really quite simple. You've heard the phrase "if it bleeds, it leads". The Media exists for the sole purpose of generating advertising revenue. If they cannot generate conflict and perpetuate it, there are no readers. No readers = no advertisers = no profit

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:15 p.m.

Sharpton is worried about Sharpton more than anyone else.

Matt Cooper

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:46 p.m.

If you knew anything about Sharpton you'd know that he has for years been working to change and eliminate black-on-black crime.

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:07 p.m.

He won't, who would pay him?

maallen

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:41 p.m.

KeepingitReal, Out of all the so called "facts" you state, I am only going to point out one that is not a fact because I don't have the time to list al of them. "the fact that Zimmerman was "told to stand down" by the dispatcher" Can you please provide that 911 call where zimmerman was "told to stand down?" Because the 911 tape I listened to the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that" after zimmerman said yes when asked are you still following him.

Stuart Brown

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:08 a.m.

Rosarium, Wrong about Wikipedia, it's as reliable as your going to get from your armchair. It also shows sources for the claims made so one can check them out. Finally, there is in fact good source material like the voice recordings of Martin's final call to his girlfriend and 911 calls.

KeepingItReal

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:41 p.m.

Stuart. Your comments are reflective of the scenario that is beginning to emerge of what actually happen. The fact that a narcotic officer was the first n the scene indicates a substandard police department. The fact that Zimmerman used a derogratory phrase to refer to martin indicates hostility; the fact that Zimmerman was "told to stand down" by the dispatcher but instead choose to get out of vehicle and approached Martin indicates that he was the aggressor. The fact that the dispatch transcript is being analyzed to discern whether Zimmerman used a racial slur..with today's technology, that will be determine one way or the other.The fact that the Florida politicians who developed stand your grow legislature clearly stated that the does not apply to what happened in Zimmerman's case. All these things add up to not look good for Zimmerman. He will be eventually convicted. Its just a matter of time.

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:49 p.m.

Agree with Roasrium. Wikipedia is an open resource that just about anyone with a computer can manipulate. Especially with an event as controversial and recent as this, you simply cannot trust "facts" that you read on Wikipedia. 6'3" and 140 pounds? Do the math. I was a skinny cross-country runner in high-school and even I weighed 150 at about 5'9". This guy was a football player.

Rosarium

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:01 a.m.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source when all the facts are not in; it's listing the same subjective opinions that the media is reporting. What's next, a link to Facebook with a # of "Likes"?

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:18 p.m.

Genius......No

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:37 p.m.

@Matt Cooper: You said "The 'witness' who made this rediculous (sic) claim was in fact a long-time friend of Zimmerman who wasn't even there the night he killed Martin." Would you be talking about the man interviewed in this clip, who says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuPmu8UUbpQ And if so, you have proof that he is Zimmerman's "long-time friend"? Also, the only injury I believe the police report mentions on Trayvon's body is a gunshot wound. If Zimmerman started a physical altercation, wouldn't there be other injuries to Trayvon. Finally, a "lucky punch"? One that broke Zimmerman's nose and put a laceration on the back of his head and grass stains on the back of his shirt? Explain how that would work, please.

Skyjockey43

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:59 p.m.

Matt Cooper, Thank you for making my point. We don't know exactly what happened that night because there are numerous conflicting accounts, and none of us were actual at the scene, therefore NOBODY has a right to unilaterally declare that this was a cold blooded murder of an innocent youth due to racism. Only when all the FACTS are made known in a court of law and not in a court of public opinion ca a judgment be made either way. I would hope that if you or one of your loved ones were accused of a heinous crime that you would be afforded that same presumption of innocence before having the new black panther party put a bounty on your head. But since you put so much faith in what the press has to say about this case, please note that every news outlet has said that the witness I was referring to Had no connection to Zimmerman at all.

thecompound

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:27 p.m.

I am a white male and i do work in Detroit. Detroit is highly racist against whites but of course people choose to turn the other way and think it is okay since it is a predominantly "black" city. What happened to Trayvon was indeed unfortunate and sad. But I will never be able to understand because apparently I can only understand it when it happens to white people? There. If hers can stay up, mine certainly should be able to, despite it's inflammatory nature.

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:03 p.m.

@Skyjockey: slam dunk.

Matt Cooper

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:43 p.m.

Sky: "For instance, the shooter sustained an injury to the BACK of his head and a broken nose." And this is proof of what? That Martin attacked Zimmerman? Hardly. Ever stop to think that maybe these were wounds inflicted by Martin as he was fighting for his life? Is it possible that maybe Martin connected with a lucky punch milliseconds before getting a .38 slug in the chest? "Additionally, a witness has reported that he was on the ground screaming for help while Trayvon Martin was on top of him. " I've listened to all of the 911 tapes of this incident and each and every person was asked by the 911 dispatcher what they could see. ALL of them said it was too dark to see anything. The "witness" who made this rediculous claim was in fact a long-time friend of Zimmerman who wasn't even there the night he killed Martin.

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:39 p.m.

@Skyjockey43 .........Very good comments and very truthful. Thank You.

Pickforddick

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:25 p.m.

Please tell.....how can you claim it is a hate crime when you have no evidence other than hear say?

Skyjockey43

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:45 a.m.

Also Cara, where were you and "reverend" Dean-Ware when a 13 year old boy was doused in gasoline and set on fire by two black 16 year olds who were yelling "you're getting what you deserve white boy". Those types of stories don't seem to warrant the kind of outrage we're seeing here. Maybe it's because that kid never knew what it was like to be black like you. Your blinding hypocrisy would be laughable if it weren't so

Skyjockey43

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 11:28 a.m.

Well Cara, If you believe it is racist for some students to be gone preferential treatment for admission to major university because of race, or if a jr high school principal only allowing students of one race to go on a field trip while the rest of the students are left behind, then I would have to agree with you that Ann Arbor is "very racist" But before you go making your grand pronouncements that this is definitely a hate crime, you might want to get a few more facts first. For instance, the shooter sustained an injury to the BACK of his head and a broken nose. Additionally, a witness has reported that he was on the ground screaming for help while Trayvon Martin was on top of him. But then again, I suppose, based on your comments, this ridiculous opinion piece by the "reverend" Dean-Ware, and the equally ridiculous Facebook posting of our former governor wearing a hoodie, If we've never been black like you then facts don't seem to matter.

Matt Cooper

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:38 p.m.

"The author here cites "mounting evidence" but fails to specify what proof there is that there was an active pursuit." 1. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and went after Martin even after being told not to by the police. 2. Martin's girlfriend specifically said that she was on the phone with him as he stated to her he was walking away while being followed by a white man (while he may well he hispanic, Zimmerman could easily be mistaken at night for being a white male). 3. Zimmerman initially spotted Martin a bit of a distance away from where the actual shooting took place (I've heard estimates of as much as two full blocks). He got there somehow, didn't he? If he wasn't pursuing Martin, how did he get there? Are you proposing that Martin went to Zimmerman's car and dragged him to where the shooting took place?

Mike

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:24 a.m.

Brilliant! nice comment. Prepare to be censored for non-compliant group think.

Left is Right

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:45 a.m.

My feeling as well looking at the sad news out of our Michigan cities over the past months. Seems like we're more than numb to black on black crime.

Matt Cooper

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:32 p.m.

Shepard, your comment might make sense but for the fact that Zimmerman's own atty. just yesterday publicly stated that he might well use the "Stand your ground" law as a defense for his client. Call it a matter of public opinion all you want, but remember one thing: Zimmerman, after shooting Martin in the chest, immediately lay the weapon on the ground and said out loud and loud enough for several neighbors to hear it "It was self-defense!!". Not "Oh God, someone please call 911", or "Someone please get an ambulance!" No. He said it was self-defense. Seems kind of odd to me that he was more concerned with convincing the neighbors that he was acting in self-defense than he was about getting help for the young man lying dying in the grass in front of him.

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:27 p.m.

We have them here in our community as well.........what a shame.

maallen

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:15 p.m.

@1bit, Where is your evidence that this random person from the neighborhood was "looking for a fight?"

1bit

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:32 a.m.

You're not dead and you were stopped by police, not some random person from the neighborhood looking for a fight while carrying a gun.

Skyjockey43

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:38 p.m.

Enso I agree about the state of critical thinking in this country. You are the best evidence of this. Insurmountable evidence? And where are you obtaining this insurmountable evidence? From the news media? Then you agree with me about the similarities to the Duke case. While the crime was different, the same public outcry as we're seeing here was displayed in that case. I remember quite clearly the same kinds of claims of insurmountable evidence being bandied about in the comment section of the Ann Arbor news back then. People were so outraged that a bunch of rich white boys could attack an innocent black girl. That is, until DNA evidence revealed that they were completely innocent and that no rape actually took place. And yet before any of the FACTS were made known, people just like you were demanding their crucifixion. Think that situation is different? Then maybe you should head o. Over to CNN where their own audio technicians have cleaned up the 911 recordings. While you're backing up your accusations based on insurmountable evidence of a racial epithet, people with just a bit more of a grasp of critical thinking have dismantled your claim. That is unless calling someone a punk is now considered racist. Please Mr. Critical Thinking, wait until all the FACTS have been released before you join in with the New Black Panther party's lynch mob

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:37 p.m.

@Enso. Please, with facts, substantiate what you wrote as follows 1) Prove that Zimmerman called Martin a racial epithet. 2) Prove that Zimmerman "chased him down." 3) Prove that Zimmerman was told "not to chase Martin down." From what I have read, a voice expert has been called in and it is inconclusive what Zimmerman may, emphasizing may, have muttered. While Zimmerman admitted that he was, at one point, following Martin (911 call), I have seen nothing conclusive that he "chased him down," which employs a running tackle or a run and grab. Zimmerman was not told "not to follow." The 911 police liason (or whatever they are called) said, "we don't need you to do that," and I have not seen anything conclusive to say that he kept following after that. Looking forward to your "critical thinking."

Enso

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:56 p.m.

Rape is a far different crime than this was. The evidence is insurmountable that this guy shot a teenager, after calling him a racial epithet, after chasing him down after he was told by the police not to. This guy did everything wrong and there are phone call records that prove it. This guy isn't claiming innocence like the Duke players. Your analogy breaks down on so many levels. It's not surprising it has the highest vote... ahh... the state of critical thinking in this country....

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:31 a.m.

What a protracted travesty that Duke case was. What a complete sham. Amazing how quickly and eagerly so many people appear to want to go down that road again. We're well on our way. Great post, Skyjockey!

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 12:57 p.m.

@Salem_Resident: I'm right there with you in my skepticism concerning TM weighing 140 at 6'2" or 6'3". There's "slim" and then there's emaciated. I suppose it's possible, but not likely I should think. As Stuart Brown notes, the Miami Herald states TM's weight as 140, and I have seen other news stories repeating this (one from NPR), but none of these reports mention where they are getting their information. Really, in the end, it doesn't matter all that much. Three eye witnesses report seeing Zimmerman on the ground, two with TM on top of him, one specifically saying Trayvon was on him "beating him up," so it would appear that whatever weight differential there was, TM had overpowered Zimm and was having his way with his face and head before Zimm finally pulled the trigger.

Salem_Resident

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:27 a.m.

Zimmerman 250 to 300 lbs?!?! At 5'9" I seriously doubt it from seeing his picture. No, not the one is the lousy fitting county-orange jumpsuit but in his everyday clothes, smiling for the camera. As for the kid being a normal sized 17 year old, at 6'3" and 200 lbs sounds like the football player he was versus Mr. Zimmerman who appeared to be classified as a couch potato.

Stuart Brown

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:09 a.m.

Scylding, your dumping on Wikipedia means you are grasping at straws; the source for the weight info is the Miami Herald. Martin's nickname was "Slimm" by the way. Zimmerman could have had up to 100 lbs of mass on Martin but was about 6 inches shorter.

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:51 p.m.

Not so fast, boo. @Matt Cooper: You said: "Check your facts, Tom. Trayvon was in fact 6' 3", but he wasn't anywhere close to 200 pounds. He was 140 pounds. Zimmerman, while being only 5' 9", is 240-250 pounds." Cite your sources for these "facts," please, especially for the 140 pound weight for this 6'3" football player. Was it Wikipedia, as we saw in another post here? You also said: "the only person so far that has said the screams for help were coming from Zimmerman was a long time friend of his who wasn't even present the night Martin was killed." Not true. Here is a witness who spoke to the police and told them that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuPmu8UUbpQ

boo

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:59 a.m.

Matt Cooper, I noticed all the experts disappeared after your last post. Passed their bed time, or you just closed their case. I'm going to go with you just closed their case. Thank you.

Matt Cooper

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:20 a.m.

Check your facts, Tom. Trayvon was in fact 6' 3", but he wasn't anywhere close to 200 pounds. He was 140 pounds. Zimmerman, while being only 5' 9", is 240-250 pounds. Secondly, I dont believe there were any eyewitnesses because it was too dark and the security lights weren't working. Every one of the 911 callers, when asked by the dispatcher, stated that it was just too dark to see much of anything. Can you link an article where someone claims to have been an eyewitness and seen enerything that happened? Secondly, Martin was not in fact trespassing. He was staying with his father and the father's girlfriend for some weeks and had every right to be there. And even if he didn't, Zimmerman, who was not a member of any recognized 'neighborhood watch' program (this supposed watch program was not recognized by any of the local police departments, county sheriffs nor the national Neighborhood Watch organizations, whose rules for conduct specifically forbid the carrying of ANY firearms while acting as a neighborhood watchman, CCW or not) is not a police officer, is not legally empowered to stop, question and/or detain anyone let alone initiate a physical altercation and NO citizen including Trayvon Martin has any obligation or legal duty to stop and be interrogated by this man or any other. The Neighborhood Watch participants are specifically trained to NOT engage ANY persons, but rather to "observe and report". Finally, the only person so far that has said the screams for help were coming from Zimmerman was a long time friend of his who wasn't even present the night Martin was killed.

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:25 p.m.

Very well said Tom, too bad other members of our community are striking out without any evidence other than hear say. I do believe the truth will come out for all to see and then we can form our own opinions based on that truth.

Terry Star21

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:29 p.m.

PS Monica...you answered your own question - 'Media Report'. Last time I checked the Police Report was our law.

genetracy

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:28 p.m.

I guess there was no reason for Zimmerman to continue to cry for help when the threat was neutalized.

Terry Star21

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:27 p.m.

Tom, I am very proud of you for using intelligence. The police report states all you have said, and it is a shame that many people want to believe rumors and the Reverends one sided story (no disrespect intended). I wonder if how some of our community think/respond, it will some day cause an innocent person being beaten, to think twice about any kind of self defense against the aggressor ?

Monica R-W

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:05 p.m.

Then, why does every media report state Mr. Martin was walking from the store on a sidewalk (gated community or not), where he purchased a bag of Skittles and a Ice Tea, except your account of this situation? What does Mr. Martin being a normal size and weight 17 year old, have to do with Zimmerman at 250-300 pounds belief that he had right to shoot to kill, due to Mr. Martin stature? Why did a neighbor report to a national large number media resources that the "cries for help" fell silent after she heard the gun shot, if it was Zimmerman that was screaming?

Davidian

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 1:20 p.m.

It's called Free Speech and if you don't like it, I would suggest moving to North Korea, Saudi Arabia, places like that.

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:05 a.m.

"[A]nd are fueled behind bring tension into this...community." Reminds me of Sharpton's "Resist we much - we must and we will much about that be committed."

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:50 p.m.

Careful........only certain individuals are allowed to say that.

The Black Stallion3

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:48 p.m.

Can I leave a voice-mail?

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:29 p.m.

I do believe I heard this speech a few years ago in Detroit.

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:21 p.m.

I sure am glad i don't have to try and censor another individual when they disagree with my opinion, I feel sorry for those that do.

Mike

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:44 p.m.

Why is it that every time someone disagrees with a liberal, their first counter argument is censorship. For shame!

Terry Star21

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:21 p.m.

Although the heart can ignore proven police report facts and believe what it wants.

genetracy

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:31 p.m.

I would never belong to a congregation that is more political than religious. Besides, if the reverand is so intent on helping the downtrodden and victims of this racist nation, then why build her congregation in a predominantly white, upper middle class city like Ann Arbor?

Leftjay

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:19 p.m.

Does it bother you that she created one? Why don't you join the congregation?

maallen

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 3:04 p.m.

@Enso, Where is the evidence that Zimmerman chased TM down to get a better shot? However, there is evidence that Zimmerman was going back to his vehicle because he lost sight of TM. And that is when TM approached him. If TM had stayed in hiding instead of approaching Zimmerman....

Enso

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:58 p.m.

There's a difference between standing your ground in self defense, and chasing someone down to get a better shot.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:20 p.m.

@Jacob: From all the factual evidence I have seen, that would appear to be exactly what Zimmerman did.

Scylding

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 4:12 a.m.

@Jake C: you sidestepped the point. We have all the facts on Obamacare, we don't have them all in this case. And, for the record, I think it very much matters what we understand and think about the constitution as American citizens, and I think it is pathetic that many people know very little about it.

Jake C

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:05 a.m.

@Scylding: unless you're a Supreme Court Justice, I don't think your personal opinion about what is or isn't Constitutional really matters.

Scylding

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 4:38 p.m.

@Jake C and @bobslowson: the difference being that all the facts regarding Obamacare are out on the table, since, as Nancy Pelosi said, they passed the bill "so that we can find out what is in it." We we have the 900+ pages of Obamacare and we have the constitution and the years and years of public case-law the followed it. With the TM case, there is a non-public police file, and we have not "found out what is in it."

bobslowson

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 3:19 p.m.

Good one Jake C...and maybe the most logical post I've seen

Jake C

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:14 p.m.

Excellent point. Will you also wait until the legal arguments regarding "Obamacare" have been settled by the Supreme Court before weighing in with your opinions on that matter? Or have you already reached your own decisions before the legal system has fully settled the matter?

Terry Star21

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:19 p.m.

Very nice Pick....and maybe the most logical post I've seen.

Davidian

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 1:18 p.m.

When keeping it real goes wrong....

Mike

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:46 p.m.

This is the kind of opinion whose credibility is proportional to its literacy.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:26 p.m.

Another rampantly speculative post. Should be reported, but it is better to let it stand to show the obvious bias and retributive arrogance of those who think they should be Zimmerman's judge, jury, and executioner. @Terry: He's not joking. His name is "KeepingItReal," after all.

Terry Star21

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:18 p.m.

You are joking.....right ?

Left is Right

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 2:30 a.m.

Actually, we need more speaking from the brain.

Mike

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:48 p.m.

Speaking from the heart is what gives mobs their power and their caprice.

Terry Star21

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:17 p.m.

It is a shame however, that the heart sometimes ignores the police reports and believes what it only wants to.

genetracy

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 9:49 p.m.

My mistake. The mainstream media described Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic" from the beginning, no doubt using the term "white" to fan the flames of racial tension in this incident. It did help Obama though, for it allowed him not to alienate his Hispanic support in his grandstanding on the issue.

David Frye

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:44 p.m.

Actually, I think the commenter is confused. I checked the transcripts, and Obama never referred to Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic." For the record, here is the full transcript of Obama's comments: Q: Can you comment on the Trayvon Martin case, sir? THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm the head of the executive branch, and the Attorney General reports to me so I've got to be careful about my statements to make sure that we're not impairing any investigation that's taking place right now. But obviously, this is a tragedy. I can only imagine what these parents are going through. And when I think about this boy, I think about my own kids. And I think every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this, and that everybody pulls together — federal, state and local — to figure out exactly how this tragedy happened. So I'm glad that not only is the Justice Department looking into it, I understand now that the governor of the state of Florida has formed a task force to investigate what's taking place. I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen. And that means that examine the laws and the context for what happened, as well as the specifics of the incident. But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves, and that we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. Thank you.

David Frye

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:05 p.m.

Black Hispanics are people of African descent who come from Latin American countries, such as Afro-Cubans, Afro-Peruvians, Afro-Brazilians and so forth. (You may also be interested to know that there are in the neighborhood of 70 million to 100 million "Hispanics" of African descent throughout Latin America, as compared with roughly 30 million African Americans in the US. Most Latin American countries do not collect census data on race, so these numbers are impressionistic.) As with all matters of race, this is not a legal definition in the modern world but a matter of personal and community identification.

genetracy

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:25 p.m.

It sounds like Obama is doing the identifying.

Basic Bob

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:14 p.m.

According to the US Census Bureau, "People who identify their origin as Hispanic or Latino may be of any race"

The Black Stallion3

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:43 p.m.

Hypocrisy at its best

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:40 p.m.

"The national media and all the liberals really love a good race crime." This sentence is ridiculous. Do you really think anyone is reveling in Trayvon's death? Put your politics down for a moment and ask yourself if you really believe that statement.

ViSHa

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:50 p.m.

Has the White House commented on the "dead or alive" bounty that the New Black Panthers put on Zimmerman's head?

ffej440

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:42 p.m.

More like the International media. On 3/15 we made a milestone, earth changing step in Laser Hydrogen Fusion which could very well change the world as we know it. Google News showed 50 news reports worldwide. The Trayvon story is about 20,000 reports and growing every hour.

thecompound

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 8:56 p.m.

GeneTracy, at least this is good news: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/news/Police-make-arrest-in-Pontiac-iPad-murder/-/4714498/9717626/-/2y1dhn/-/index.html

aanative

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:27 p.m.

Genetracy: EXACTLY! Thank you for stating what everyone overlooks. The American 'epidemic' of senseless violence, regardless of the race of victim or shooter.

genetracy

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:52 p.m.

That is sad. We never heard about it because there was no outrage. The memory of that kid probably lasted as soon as the funeral was over.

ViSHa

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:47 p.m.

Genetracy, your post reminds me of that recent shooting of a young man in Pontiac for his iPhone and iPad. Complete waste of a life, but you may have to dig for that story, there were no marches, etc... for him.

The Black Stallion3

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:05 p.m.

MR Zimmerman is an American as was Martin and Mr Zimmerman, as all Americans, is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, not by any newspaper article.

Scylding

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 1:26 p.m.

@Stuart: using the police report or the words of a witness, or other factual evidence, substantiate your claim that Zimmerman 1) was bigger than Trayvon 2) used "aggressive tactics." Your post relies heavily on these two assertions. Watch your sources.

Stuart Brown

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:22 a.m.

Zimmerman seems to have been convinced that Martin was up to no good which nobody believes to be the case after the fact. Zimmerman screwed-up big time but does seem to know what he needs to say to beat a murder wrap. If Zimmerman had not used such unnecessary and aggressive tactics in the incident, no doubt Martin would still be alive. The reason this is an issue is that when black people screw up and kill somebody, no mercy is shown for the killer regardless of the circumstances. Now that some quasi authority figure is the screw-up, we are hearing a lot of chatter about how we need to feel sorry for this moron thug. The usual burn-them-at-the-stake crowd has gone AWOL here and is now demanding that we all wait for the trial. The anger from the African American community is justified.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:15 p.m.

@Wendy: Your post is absolutely riddled with speculation. You have no proof that Zimmerman was "harassing" Martin. Asking him "what are you doing here" is not harassment. You have no proof that Zimmerman chased Martin when Martin ran, IF he ran. You have no proof that Zimmerman was bigger than Martin; the pictures of Martin associated with every article I have seen are very out-dated. He was no longer the little kid of those pictures. You make it sound like Zimmerman deliberately provoked a fight; you have no proof of that. A2.com, I thought you had a policy against speculation. About 90% of Wendy's post is speculation!

The Black Stallion3

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:11 p.m.

Monica...I think you should leave that up to a court of law, that is what we do in this country.

Wendy Cooper

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:53 p.m.

Well then, ffej, if this was not a high-crime area it seems to make this killing even more senseless.

The Black Stallion3

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:37 p.m.

Hi Matt

ffej440

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:32 p.m.

Not only does Wendy not have all the facts, what she has is wrong. A gated community is NOT a high crime area amongst other incorrect statements.

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:04 p.m.

Do you protest to have all the facts Wendy? I think you are putting together a story that needs to have facts to back it up. Let us wait until these are verified before getting in an uproar.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 8:04 p.m.

@Stallion: I think A2.com is often very selective in its application of the "guidelines." But of course, I'm sure you already suspect this. Hit the "Report Abuse" button on Chuck and cite the violation! I'm sure that's what happened to one of my posts, now not above. Personally, though, I never report the opposition. I enjoy attacking their violations and making them look stupid more than seeing their bias and hatred disappear. Whatever will make them look worse is what makes me happier. Classic schadenfreude. Good work in your posts!

Ann23

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:45 p.m.

Yup, that's it. It's all relative.

The Black Stallion3

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:40 p.m.

Hi Wendy

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 4:23 p.m.

Wendy has the answer I bet.

maallen

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:50 p.m.

@mun Have you not listened to the 911 tapes? The operator did not tell George to STOP following him. The operator asked if he was following him and when Zimmerman said Yes the response was "We don't need you to do that." Nowhere did the operator tell him to stop following him. Also, Zimmerman lost him and went back to his vehicle where he was approached by TM. Zimmerman did NOT chase TM down.

mun

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 9:33 p.m.

The 911 operator told George not to follow him. So you support George chasing him down?

Terry Star21

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:06 p.m.

I agree Mike...the police report gives evidence of Zimmerman on the ground, bleeding and fearing for his life. Martin was running only after being shot, but the story tries to indicate he was an innocent bystander running away screaming and left alone to die. There is still a lot of investigation left, but the police report and the Reverend's story are two different stories - who to believe; the officers, witnesses and investigators on site - or someone who was not.

Monica R-W

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:17 p.m.

What does President Obama's "beer summit" have to do with a 17 Year Old young man, who will never graduate high school, attend his senior prom or start a college semester due to his untimely death? Seriously? You're picking at very short straws. So short, the straws cease to exist.

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:33 p.m.

I agree with your sentiment on kids' fashion, but adults asking why kids dress and do things differently than we want? We both know the answer...

Monica R-W

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:19 p.m.

ffej440, have you heard, Mr. Martin had on the hootie portion of his sweat-shirt because it was RAINING outside. So, if we understand your comment correctly, Mr. Martin had no right to put the hootie of his sweat-shirt on to cover his head from the rain? Seriously?

Boo

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:46 p.m.

Maybe the "reverend" has never been to an area where she would be considered suspicious or the minority. Based on her one sided view of profiling it would sure seem so.

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:30 p.m.

Look, I'm all for "innocent until proven guilty" but I'm also for common sense. Trayvon is dead. Zimmerman killed him. Nobody is disputing that. I'm completely fine giving the justice system time to charge a crime. I am not confident that would have occurred if public attention was not brought to this situation. @Monica: We don't agree on much, but on this one I think you are spot on.

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:46 p.m.

It is this type of speculation on your part that creates so much racial tension in this country, I suggest you wait until all the evidence is in before finding someone guilty. Please chill out and have some respect for our judicial system, Mr Zimmerman has not been charged with a crime.

The Black Stallion3

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:37 p.m.

My point is that Mr Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty and all you people trying to convict him before he is even charged with a crime are causing a lot of trouble in this country because you are basing your feelings on hearsay, so your point is?

Monica R-W

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:26 p.m.

"These people are just looking for something to get upset about. Let the investigation continue and in the mean time get upset about all the murdering that is happening in the black communities close to here." Who are "these people" and who "in the mean time get upset about all the murdering that is happening in the black communities"? Details please.... First, this case is out of STANFORD, FL....not Southeastern Michigan, second...you mean to tell me that if this was your son or relative that was shot dead while he was carrying Skittles and Ice Tea by a grown man you wouldn't be upset and third, Florida State Government officials and the Federal Government Civil Rights Department have rightfully stepped into this case of clearly a local police department gone astray. So your point is?

Pickforddick

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:44 p.m.

It is this type of speculation on your part that creates so much racial tension in this country, I suggest you wait until all the evidence is in before finding someone guilty. Please chill out and have some respect for our judicial system, Mr Zimmerman has not been charged with a crime.

USRepublic

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 5:20 p.m.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.....

Hot Sam

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 11:44 p.m.

Read the police report...the weapon was confiscated...just another one of those things overlooked by those yearning for something to blame on "racist America"...

maallen

Wed, Mar 28, 2012 : 2:43 p.m.

@1bit, Have you not listened to the 911 calls? When zimmerman called, he didn't know what race TM was. So please explain how he was profiling him? If you lived in a neighborhood that had crimes committed over the past year, and see someone you don't recognize in your neighborhood, wouldn't you look at that individual more closely?

1bit

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 12:42 a.m.

Hilarious post if you weren't serious.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:48 p.m.

@1bit: no, 17-year-old males are not as helpless as 13 or 14-year-old males, of any race, and not as capable of over-powering a man, jumping on his chest, and beating his face until he breaks his nose and causes lacerations to the back of his head, as Martin did to Zimmerman. In other words, it would help the reality of the case make sense and would help defuse a very charged environment before it erupts into further violence.

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:25 p.m.

And if he were an older black man then it would be more understandable why Zimmerman was profiling him, accosted him and the situation then led to Trayvon's death? Are 17-year-old black teenagers more scary than 13 or 14 year old black teenagers?

boo

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2 p.m.

Race is always an issue in this country!

shutthefrtdoor

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 3:01 p.m.

Tragic but true Scydling.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:42 p.m.

Yes, jjc155, this case has been groomed by the media from the get-go, right down to where they show out-dated pictures of one party to make him appear small and likely to have been helpless. We've seen this before, and the sad thing is, it will do far more harm than good.

shutthefrtdoor

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:59 p.m.

I was going to give a thumbs up to this post as I have had the same experiences...until I read the last 5 words. I wasn't there obviously, but the new evidence with injuries to back it makes this very tough. RIP Trayvon, regardless of what happened.

1bit

Tue, Mar 27, 2012 : 12:06 a.m.

Hmmm... let's try this one: If Trayvon had defended himself by shooting Zimmerman, then would it have been okay? He'd be standing his ground against a possible (armed) attacker. Some on this thread are implying that because Trayvon used his fists instead of a gun that he in effect deserved to be shot by ZImmerman. Nope, the instigator is ZImmerman. That's not hype. By his own voice on the 911 tapes, Zimmerman makes clear his intention in spite of the entreaties of the 911 dispatcher.

shutthefrtdoor

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:55 p.m.

@ 1bit...actually "castle or stand your ground" laws remove the mandatory incarceration if there is a preponderance of evidence that the homocide was justfiable. Mr Z is still accessible if needed. I think that is where the general public is mistaken. If Mr. Z did not have defensive injuries I'd agree with you.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 5:56 p.m.

Right on the money, Hot Sam. You didn't have to wait long to rest your case. There is a witness now who says that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, punching at his face. Very interesting how everyone was so willing, almost eager, to believe that Zimmerman was simply a racist monster who ran Trayvon down and shot him in the chest, and that the police force there would be so rampantly racist as to let him go if the evidence did not reflect something very different. Great post!

Hot Sam

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:06 p.m.

I rest my case...

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:59 p.m.

Take race out of it. Zimmerman should be in jail (or on bail) pending the outcome of a criminal case in why he killed an unarmed teenager. It's that simple - most are not being judge and jury. They are simply asking that a judge and jury actually hear the case! Injustice for one is injustice for all.

shutthefrtdoor

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 2:49 p.m.

I would just like to add that the young man was pronounced dead at 19:30 hrs. There was not much time elapsed between 19:17 hrs when the second officer was dispatched. It appears that things moved very quickly, to the credit of the responding officers.

Ann23

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 10:22 p.m.

Completely agree with Scylding. Some on here are an inspiration.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:38 p.m.

Two reasonable men having a good interchange, and being open-minded concerning the factual evidence cited by each other. A pleasure to behold! Thumbs up gentlemen!

Craig Lounsbury

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:17 p.m.

I would imagine that securing weapons would be the first priority. I don't want to seem like I'm second guessing the first officer. i hope he worked as fast as he could to do so that he might give some attention to the guy on the ground ASAP. But none the less it certainly raises some interesting points in the whole mess. I would imagine a grand jury, or some investigative authority would talk to the Fire department guy who treated Zimmerman in the back of the patrol car. Again thanks for the link. Information is a good thing.

David M

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:07 p.m.

Good point, it does say that the next officer arrived "shortly" but who knows how long that was. I have heard from police officers that their first priority is to secure any weapons on the scene of a crime.

Craig Lounsbury

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:55 p.m.

Thanks for the link. It is readable and interesting. I do find it curious, if not disturbing that the first officer on the scene, the one who noticed Zimmerman wet and bleeding never bothered to bend over and check the status of the guy who was shot. ts not clear how much time passed between him cuffing Zimmerman and the second officer arriving.

David M

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:40 p.m.

http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/327370-trayvon-martin-police-report This is police report, couple of pages down, kinda hard to read due to the small font.

Craig Lounsbury

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:21 p.m.

"and the police reported Zimmerman had a broken nose, laceration to the back of his head, and grass stains on his back." was that in the police report? I only can find that as an allegation from Zimmerman's lawyer on TV.

Jack

Thu, Mar 29, 2012 : 4:42 a.m.

1bit - I have friends of alll colors and ethnicities. They do not act differently among one another. Sorry. You are presenting a very limited view of humanity.

David M

Mon, Mar 26, 2012 : 8:57 p.m.

@1bit- I agree with you, I believe the grand jury will convene on April 10th to determine if it goes to trial.

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:17 p.m.

David: I think we agree in that we don't know all the facts or can ascribe intent. My point remains that a teenager is dead and his killer has not even been charged with a crime. Although this may yet occur, I'm not sure it would have if not for public outrage. It seems the presumption of guilt was on the teenager, who couldn't defend himself from his position in the afterlife. Let Mr. Zimmerman have his day in court and allow our system of justice to have its chance.

AnnieWood

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 2:44 p.m.

This is my point. http://www.freep.com/comments/article/20120325/COL33/203250689/Stephen-Henderson-Why-isn-t-there-more-outrage-when-innocent-kids-die-in-Detroit-

David M

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 1:24 p.m.

@1bit- Well you could be entirely right, but I don't think the evidence in this specific case supports your assumption. I understand that minorities are often treated unfairly or presumptions are made about them based on their skin color, but in this case I don't think that Zimmerman made assumptions based on Martin's skin color. I don't know about the Stanford PD, but if I were a police officer I might be inclined to take Zimmerman at his word given his injuries. If they did not follow procedures like drug testing then it might have been racially motivated, or possibly they just knew him fairly well from his numerous other 911 calls and let it slide, either way they messed up, but you can't make judgement as to their intent without evidence to back it up.

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:56 p.m.

Your idyllic comments are amusing, David. Reality has a surprising way of being inconvenient. I do not purport to know Mr. Zimmerman's original motivations or intent, nor do I know what the police or bystanders were thinking. But, yes, I still stand by the truth that Trayvon would be alive if he were white and Zimmerman would be in jail if he were black. Are you seriously suggesting that if a black man, who was told by 911 not to follow a "suspicious individual", confronted an unarmed white teenager and subsequently killed him that the black man wouldn't be in jail? Seriously? Perhaps I'm just older and have seen too much injustice, or subtle discrimination, to see this. I don't know you - maybe you are black. But if you are not then befriend someone who is and bring them among your white friends and see how your friends will act differently (they won't be racist, they will just not act as they would to someone who is white - they'll make assumptions about the person). Or as a white person, go to a black church and see what that feels like. Trayvon was "profiled" and that's why he's dead. So was Zimmerman, and that's why he's not in jail.

David M

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:21 p.m.

@1bit- you are presuming that Zimmerman's actions were racially motivated, there is no evidence to support that. You are also presuming that the Stanford police's decision not to hold Zimmerman is because he is not black, which is possible, but put yourself in their place. A man who claims self defense shows evidence of being assaulted, while the other person does not (as far as we know.)

1bit

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 12:12 p.m.

Yep, and how many of those white teens are dead? The simple and horrible truths: if Trayvon were white he would still be alive and if Zimmerman were black then he would be in jail.

Scylding

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 7:33 p.m.

@SEC Fan: I would say that having a person on top of you, beating your face with his fists to the point where you have a broken nose, is a bit more than simply claiming that "I was scared for my life." An eyewitness is reporting that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating his face with his fists, and this lines up with the police report.

SEC Fan

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 6:54 p.m.

This is 100% a race issue (I'm white). Are you telling me the only thing a person in Florida has to do is say "I was scared for my life" and they get to go home after putting a bullet in someone? That's called legalized murder.

Chuck Warpehoski

Sun, Mar 25, 2012 : 3:02 p.m.

Annie, do you think that if George Zimmerman were dead and Treyvon Martin were alive that Treyvon would not already be behind bars?