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Posted on Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.

Snyder twisting facts to fit his outcome when it comes to government worker pay

By Letters to the Editor

(Gov. Rick) Snyder’s “Citizen’s Guide to Financial Health” is out of whack! A deceitful business approach -- decide on an outcome and twist the facts to fit that outcome. The same behavior exhibited by Wall Street and investment banks before their collapse. The conclusions about employee pay are a prime example of distorted reporting, a hallmark of far right conservative misinformation. Of course private sector pay has declined 13 percent, we have lost most of our high value added manufacturing jobs and increased low pay, no benefit service jobs. It’s really easy to show double- digit increases on a declining public sector base consistently paid lower than the private sector. No context, no substance.

Most egregious is the payroll comparison of 50,000 highly skilled professionals to a total state workforce of 4.2 million that includes no benefit minimum wage service workers and part-timers. Credible studies repeatedly show that equivalent public pay scales are at least 6% lower than the private sector, including benefits! Not mentioned are legislators’ paychecks, about $79,000 annually in Michigan, versus the national average of approximately $26,000. Now there’s a payroll that is out of whack! Fix that, Rick! Chuck Fellows South Lyon

Comments

NoSUVforMe

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 11:22 p.m.

After having my last post removed, I guess it is okay to say "twisting facts" but not lying. I guess the L word must be avoided. Deceitful, deceptive, twisting facts are okay. So, why are we surprised when a Republican is deceitful, deceptive and twisting/distorting facts. Didn't we give a former dunderhead president a pass for cherry-picking intelligence?

macjont

Tue, Feb 22, 2011 : 12:13 a.m.

You must be kidding us. "Lying" seems to be a perfect descriptor to me. For our or at least my edification, I would appreciate it if AnnArbor.com would advise us of the appropriateness of the following: beguile; camouflage; conceal; concoct contrive cook up; deceive; delude ; dissemble ; dissimulate ; distort dream up; dupe; equivocate; exaggerate; fabricate; fake; falsify; feign; fib; fudge; hide; invent; misguide; misinform; mislead; misrepresent; misstate; palter; perjure; pervert; prevaricate; promote; whitewash ---- to identify but a few.

Roadman

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 6:08 p.m.

The problem is that government workers are grossly overpaid. The general counsel of U-M has a $295,000 annual salary - more than the Michigan governor or chief justices of either the state or U.S. supreme courts. Also more than the U.S. Attorney General or Michiagn Attorney General. The invisible U-M public safety director earns more than either the Michigan governor or FBI director. The police and fire personnel of A2 earn more than the Mayor. City Attorney Postema earns more than the Michigan Governor and is the highest paid City attorney in the state. If you got rid of these overpaid personnel at all levels of government and replaced them with qualified workers being paid a competitive wage you could have a balanced budget and better running government.

John Q

Thu, Feb 24, 2011 : 2:31 a.m.

The Governor makes around $150,000 with benefits. Name one CEO in this country that runs a corporation with 58,000 employees and a $46 billion budget who works for that amount. The people at the top of the public sector are usually grossly underpaid, not overpaid, compared to their peers in the private sector.

macjont

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 8:15 p.m.

You may have a point, but I think you must make it another way. You compare government pay with government pay, not government pay with private sector pay. For example, I know a young man, 3 years out of law school, who will be making well in excess of the $295,000 a year that you claim UM's general counsel is making. Your comparisons would also be strengthened if you compared, for example, what UM's general counsel makes with the salary of general counsels for other highly ranked universities. Again, I can't say your conclusion is wrong, but your argument does not compel it.

AACity12

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 3:54 p.m.

If you do not want to pay what it costs to run the services provided then I say cut the service. Stop govt run trash service, cut plowtrucks, cut the amount of teachers, cut police and firemen. That's not what most of you want though. You want the same amount of service you just dont want to pay for it. You would rather have those employees pay for the services you use. You go about this by calling them greedy. Telling them if they don't take a pay cut then their friend and co worker is going to lose his job. You bash their unions and call them names. Then expect them to help you out so you can continue to have good services.

DonBee

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 5:20 p.m.

AACity12 - Out here we don't have city run trash collection, but we do have a franchise fee and only 1 allowed provider. We have a franchise fee on our cable, telephone and electricity. All these fees go to the local government, I have a hard time understanding what the local government does with the cable, telephone and electric companies that should earn them this money. I pay about $20 a month to the local unit of government for my utilities. As to fire and police, we have special millages to pay directly for them, since the county decided to cut the sheriff's service, figuring that cut would result in more taxes being collected county wide and they could spend the former public safety money elsewhere. As to plow trucks, it used to be that the trucks were out 24/7 in a storm like last night and they came into the subdivisions. Now we pay to have the subdivision road plowed by a private contractor, and the main road was not touched until about 9AM. I am paying more taxes for less service than I got a decade ago. Way more as a percentage of my income (I am still working, not retired) and more vs inflation. So, I pay more and get less. Is that fair? I understand the desire to fund art, new buildings, junkets to see school districts, recycling centers, and the like, as well as homeless shelters, et al. But, why do it at the cost of the basic services that towns and counties were setup to provide originally?

macjont

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:48 p.m.

Thoughts (not mine) worth considering: Wolfgang Munchau has an especially good piece today about how Germany sees the eurozone crisis. The key graf: So while the rest of us are debating how to solve Europe's banking crisis, and become exasperated by the lack of progress, Ms Merkel is solving a crisis in a parallel universe. The German narrative is the outgrowth of a lie the country's establishment has peddled ever since debate on the single currency started 20 years ago: that a monetary union can be sustained through a simple set of rules for monetary and fiscal policy; that financial regulation and current account imbalances do not matter. The eurozone crisis has proved this is not the case. But the conservatives cling to this old, comfortable straw. If there is a crisis, then it must be fiscal. And austerity is the answer. Indeed. And it's not just the Germans. It's amazing how this whole crisis has been fiscalized; deficits, which are overwhelmingly the result of the crisis, have been retroactively deemed its cause. And at the same time, influential people around the world have seized on the idea of expansionary austerity, becoming ever more adamant about it as the alleged historical evidence has collapsed. And where there is skewed vision, the economy perishes

braggslaw

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:27 p.m.

The outcome has to be smallergovt

macjont

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 8:20 p.m.

Absolutely not! We need more government and better government. It's the private sector that tubed this economy, a private sector unaccountable to anyone but shareholders.

Otto Mobeal

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:42 p.m.

Having worked for the State, I agree that many State workers are over paid (and over compensated), but many important professional are underpaid. There seems to be a historic drive towards an "average" wage, this results in unskilled labor being paid much more than they could get in the open market, but it also drives skilled, professional, and upper management wages low. So this results in unskilled workers staying at the State for their entire careers, but skilled labor leaving for jobs in the private sector.

PaperTigerSophie

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 11:42 a.m.

Let's just give Rick a chance to do what he was elected to do. It's always difficult to face the truth, but facts speak for themselves. It's the same old thing - - go ahead and cut, as long as it doesn't affect ME. We're all in this together, so let's work TOGETHER. I do agree that nothing was said about the the state government legislators' healthcare. Does anyone know if any of them are paying a portion of their healthcare? Now, that would be interesting to find out. I already pay a portion of my healthcare, but I also think that everyone should already be doing that. How would one find out if the legislators are paying a portion of their healthcare and/or pension and if the new law, if passed, would effect each one of them?

macjont

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 12:52 p.m.

From what many people I have talked to who voted for Snyder, I have concluded that Snyder was not elected to do what he is doing. It's anybody's guess what was in the brains (assuming a fact not in evidence, perhaps?) of those who voted for Snyder. Yours is as good as mine, I suppose.

Tru2Blu76

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 6:07 a.m.

RE:"Rick's point was not that public sector workers are grossly overpaid, but simply that we can't afford as much government as we used to have given the beating the private sector has taken. It is from that perspective that the public sector must make serious concessions, especially wit respect to benefits and legacy costs. Everybody else has done it, now the public sector must do it too." -- So, it's just coincidence that, since the economic collapse CAUSED BY "me first Capitalism" it's corporations which are flourishing, and their political mouth pieces are still calling for cutbacks to government services which they KNOW (as in education) are vital for "the Common People" and their children? Just coincidence that "smaller government" and "lower taxes" is the phony refrain we've been hearing from the extremist right when taxes in fact have remained at a low point achieved THIRTY YEARS AGO? Companies have been using the roll-backs of wages and benefits during recessions for a long time. FYI: No sooner did wages at many major companies reach the national median income, that companies started calling for roll backs, saying that such MEDIAN INCOME wages were "excessive." Doesn't it bother you that calling MEDIAN figures "excessive" is a contradiction in fact and reasoning?? "Excessive benefits" - another clap-trap claim: when police and fire fighters face significantly higher health risks than INSURANCE COMPANIES like to see. Just coincidence? These rightist claims of "excess" purposely omit that it's their own kind (insurance companies) who've profited most while complaining the most and paying off politicians to fight universal health care as well as benefit packages that fairly address increased risks to health of public service personnel. Inside corporations: there's excess "wages" galore, with million dollar bonuses and million dollar office upgrade

Tru2Blu76

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 3:50 a.m.

Quote: " If the Ann Arbor News [sic] wishes to maintain its circulation base it should police the rabid behavior of some of its fellow travelers." I suppose that means someone expects AnnArbor.com to suppress and censor any comments or opinion pieces which are in any way critical of the far-right mentality? Hah! Now there's a police state fan for you - only now days it's "corporate state" in place of police state. My, how times have changed: the ultimate "capitalist victory." Anyway: I'm sure those good folks with offices at the corner of Liberty and Fifth Avenue aren't worried that their "failure" to censor such writings will lead to their business failure.

Tru2Blu76

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 3:39 a.m.

Despite any particular points of difference, one can survey the whole picture and still reliably conclude that the Republicans' agenda involves disempowering the majority through their "version" of economics (which they don't follow themselves in the first place). OTH: The Dems have done nothing to counter the Republican assault on the wealth of ordinary individuals who actually have to do the math and keep their budget from failing while "accepting" second-tier jobs they're actually over-trained for. Paraphrasing Lewis Black: Our two political parties are just one bowl of "crap" looking at itself in the mirror." It's past time, really, to back both political parties into a corner from which they'll never escape: make it law that, after a certain date and time, any distortion of fact (including statistics), any lie or slander committed by a party member or candidate will become a felony with heavy minimum sentence. I for one am sick of this pretense under which every candidate claims they are something they are not or will ever be: truly representing the good of the American public above all else. This applies equally to Gov. $nyder, Inc. and all the elected officials in this state.

stunhsif

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:39 a.m.

Thanks Chuck Fellows, you gave me a "good and hearty" laugh tonight as I read your opinion piece. You did a nice job side stepping the obvious which is not public employee pay, it is the Cadillac pensions and benefits. Good Night No Luck Needed

snoopdog

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:27 a.m.

The three most popular comments basically say it all . I will add just one comment which is, I believe that the only folks opposed to "right-sizing" public bennies and pensions are public employees. Good Day

macjont

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 12:50 p.m.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Anyone with a brain in his or her head is opposed to Snyder's "wrong-sizing" of public benefits and pensions.

NoSUVforMe

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:14 a.m.

Snyder was elected in a land slide. In fact, he was the best possible outcome given the slate of very scary Republicans. Still, why are we surprised when a Republican uses lies and distortion to sell an agenda of boosting corporate power and influence, demeaning and shrinking government, cutting taxes for the wealthy, and trashing the American working people (teachers, unions, public servants)? At least Snyder isn't pursuing a far right agenda of abortion, gun rights, and religion. Indeed, a progressive income tax could solve this budget problem. But, as long as tax increases are off the table, we will continue our downward spiral. Who knows, maybe we will soon rival Texas with the failure of our education system, the highest infant mortality, and having the most guns per capita. All lofty Republican unstated goals.

JerryStone1971

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:55 a.m.

The budget problems in Michigan could be SOLVED with a graduated income tax model. Why does Governor Snyder (who I voted for) --- former CEO of Gateway, a wealthy businessman --- pay the same income tax rate as the person who serves burgers at McDonald's making minimum wage? I sincerely hope that if someday, I ever make as much money as Governor Snyder, I will be taxed to high-heck! Allow me to pay a larger share, as I have the means with which to do so!

Craig Lounsbury

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:27 a.m.

all politicians twist the facts to fit their agenda. I don't care which side of the political spectrum they fall on. Facts and truth are merely tools in their respective tool boxes. They use them when convenient and ignore them when they aren't. Half truth's and selective facts are also tools in the box.

Salinemary

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:06 a.m.

Of course he twists the facts. About what I expected from him.

macjont

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 12:28 a.m.

The controversy is over whether the size of government has grown. If you look at all levels of government, it is shrinking and shrinking dangerously. The federal government "stimulus" was more than offset by reductions in state and local government spending. Calling it a "stimulus" was therefore misleading. The stimulus was the equivalent of giving a badly constipated patient a stool softener when a strong laxative was needed. Now the Republicans want to treat the patient by feeding him peanut butter. Because of the recession, our state's budget problems can be traced to inadequate revenue, not to tax rates that are too low. Our nation and our state are headed in the wrong direction, with Rick Snyder helping to lead the charge.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 11:38 p.m.

"And this kind of language is being used to describe what is actually mainstream opinion." Really? "Mainstream" according to whom? Good Night and Good Luck

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 3:23 a.m.

You think "mainstream" opinion is represented by socialists? Pretty interesting coming from you. Good Night and Good Luck

stunhsif

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 3:19 a.m.

Me thinks it is Socialists !

Mike

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 11:15 p.m.

Why is it acceptable when liberals write and get published in papers writing ad hom. pieces with language like: "far right conservative misinformation". And this kind of language is being used to describe what is actually mainstream opinion. If the Ann Arbor News wishes to maintain its circulation base it should police the rabid behavior of some of its fellow travelers.

macjont

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 12:39 a.m.

"Far right conservative misinformation" is not an ad hominem attack. This phrase characterizes the information supplied by conservatives as false or misleading. I'm not sure what leads conservatives to do this, but I will presume good motives. Perhaps they are just ignorant. :>)

John Q

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:13 p.m.

I know it makes for a great conservative talking point. But the facts are that neither pay or benefits have been going up in local government, thousands of people have been laid off from local government jobs and the idea that locals haven't taken any cuts is simply false!

L. C. Burgundy

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:38 p.m.

Yes, this is exactly what the publication referenced in the letter above said. The number of state employees has indeed gone down over the past ten years, but average compensation has continued to rise. Note that some compensation may be invisible on a paycheck.

L. C. Burgundy

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:53 p.m.

Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. I don't think you actually have a disagreement with the small section of one document you are disparaging. The fact remains that private sector compensation has diminished and state/local compensation has consistently increased with the state and local governments amping up debt and borrowing to make up for shortfalls. That is unsustainable when your private sector funds your public sector. It has nothing to do with how professional or how good state or local employees are. Period. Full stop. And to what is surely your next idea, you cannot tax the "rich" into compliance on a state level very successfully. You tend to depress private sector activity further, and there are no guards on the borders to Ohio, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Agreed on the legislature - should go part time and/or with per diems only.

DonBee

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:46 p.m.

Both sides are using statistics to their own end. Neither is right and neither is wrong. As the old joke goes there are "Lies, Darn Lies and Statistics" You can make any point you want with statistics and correlations, for example: "Did you know that the decline in pirates was causing global warming?" This is statistically true but non-sense. So much of what both sides are spreading is non-sense and belongs is a farm waste spreader. We have a budget problem. We can be like Wisconsin, or Even Jerry Brown in California, musing on a 10 percent contribution for all California employees, or we can do what our new Governor has suggested and sit down and work it out. I prefer the work it out. Lets all climb out of the trenches and figure out how to the get the state out of the ditch.

DonBee

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 5:06 p.m.

EMG - I am neither a "righty or a lefty", I am a "we have to fix this mess". I don't like what is going on in Wisconsin, I don't see it happening here. Gov. Snyder will not sign a bill, even if the "righty" pass it. People who say Michigan is going the way of Wisconsin are just trying to dig the trenches deeper. What we need and what I have heard the Governor say over and over is "We need to sit down and work this out". I am in favor of finding a workable solution, including some tax increases and some service cuts. The Federal mandates are a big elephant in the room that no one wants to really talk about. Less and less of the Michigan tax revenue can be spent the way Michigan wants, the Federal government tells us how to spend it.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:19 p.m.

DonBee: It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with your original point. But subsequently YOU wrote: "Gov Brown indicated he will probably not negotiate today in his interview, 10 percent contribution is what he wants. Wisconsin has a bill in play that will probably pass that will do worse than that to public employees. " My reply, then, is a correction to your post that implies the gov of WI only wants a 10% contribution. His goal is to bust the unions. And I expect that Governor Snyder will follow suit sooner rather than later. And, if not his doing, it will be that of the rabid right in the state legislature and he will do nothing to stop it. Good Night and Good Luck

DonBee

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 4:08 a.m.

And this applies to my original point how EMG?

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:45 a.m.

1) Wisconsin is short money because it cut taxes. This is what the right does and has done in this state. It creates a fiscal "crisis" whose only solution is to harm public employees. 2) The public employee unions have made clear their willingness to give the governor exactly what he wants in health care and pension givebacks. Still he won't back down because that's not all that's in the bill. He wants to substantially harm their right to bargain collectively--and that is the real game that is being played here. The money is a diversion for the feeble-minded. Indeed, it hooks back to 1)--an induced "crisis" meant to be a pretext to destroy the unions. Good Night and Good Luck

DonBee

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:04 a.m.

Lisa - I did not say it was reasonable or unreasonable. What I said is you can use statistics in any way you want. Whether they really support your position or not is not important, rather people throw around numbers to make a point and EMG made my point for me. Once again he missed the sarcasm in my statement. Gov Brown indicated he will probably not negotiate today in his interview, 10 percent contribution is what he wants. Wisconsin has a bill in play that will probably pass that will do worse than that to public employees. Gov Snyder indicated he wants to sit down and try and work out a solution with the state unions. My only point is I like that position better than the California or Wisconsin solutions.

DonBee

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2 a.m.

Cash - I heard him on NPR, I heard him in a town hall meeting, I read it on his website. Did you ignore all of this? The website was still up when I checked. Have you actually read Gov. Snyder's budget document or are you running from the press stories? He has repeatedly said he wants to sit down and negotiate with the public employee unions. The budget will get changed, it always does, that is why the lobby industry in Lansing is one of the growth industries in Michigan, MESSA, the UAW, the MEA, Ford and everyone else has their lobbyist. Millions get spent changing the budget. In fact the lobbyists will lobby as they have for the last few years, meaning that budget will not be law in time for schools and others to plan. Maybe a straight up and down vote would be better. Don't get me wrong, I dislike parts of the budget, but I know we have to reset the clock. It is going to be painful.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 11 p.m.

It is not statistically true that the decline in pirates has led to global warming. There is no connection. It is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logic error. And, yes, statistics can be used in such a way. But that does not mean that all statistical evidence is meaningless. Good Night and Good Luck

Lisa

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:09 p.m.

DonBee, We have a budget problem. I agree. Then why are we cutting taxes to businesses? When you have a budget problem, you don't cut your revenue. I think it HIGHLY unreasonable to ask public workers to give up 5% of their wages so that our businesses can avoid paying taxes on services that they too use.

Cash

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:05 p.m.

Because Don Bee is asserting that Snyder wants to "sit down and work it out" and that's absolutely incorrect! He did his budget (NOT what he said in his campaign) and then he has said he will NOT allow any item to be removed by the legislature. Now I know why Gateway tanked.

L. C. Burgundy

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:55 p.m.

Cash, how is it a dictatorship when the elected legislature acts on a budget proposed by an elected governor? Please. I thought we were going to get a new era in civility, but events here and in Wisconsin have certainly proven me wrong.

Cash

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:53 p.m.

Your new governor did NOT suggest that we all sit down and work it out. Instead he refused to say what he was going to do with ANY detail at all until people elected him. Then he presents a budget in a way that items cannot be removed or changed....it is in whole. That's not listening or sitting down to talk things out...that's a dictatorship.

MB111

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:11 p.m.

The state population is lower than it was 10 years ago. The tax base is lower. The deficit is larger. The only constant is the size of the government - which has actually grown. Why is this controversial?

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 3:20 p.m.

This might explain why public sector salaries, on average, are higher than the private sector, on average: <a href="http://shankerblog.org/?p=1684" rel='nofollow'>http://shankerblog.org/?p=1684</a> Not too many hamburger flippers or WalMart greeters on this list. Good Night and Good Luck

Lisa

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:59 p.m.

Almost ALL of that growth is in hospitals and higher education.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:57 p.m.

Can't find a cite for the above claim, so try this: <a href="http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html" rel='nofollow'>http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html</a> This shows that the top 20% in the US control 85% of the nation's wealth and that the Top 1% control 34%. In other words, the top 1% control twice as much wealth as the bottom 80%. Good Night and Good Luck

Craig Lounsbury

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:46 p.m.

&quot;The top 400 earners in the US earn as much as the bottom 50% COMBINED.&quot; can you give me a link to that information?

johnnya2

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:30 p.m.

The fact is the last 20 years has seen a REDUCTION in basic infrastructure that NEEDs to be fixed immediately. The unemployment rate will stay where it is or go higher if you lay off public sector jobs and increase private sector jobs. The private sector has been growing while the public sector has been shrinking since Obama became president. Most of that is from things like the stimulus package which actually gave money for projects to PRIVATE companies. The leader of the right wing movement, Ronald Reagan did the EXACT SAME THING. He just funneled the money into defense spending, creating large deficits and making huge profits for General Dynamics and the other defense contractors who hired more people. The fact is, as companies cut pay, fewer people can afford their services, which is a downward spiral to nowhere. I'd suggest the companies start looking at the level of pay for their executives to average worker and see how out of whack it has become. The top 400 earners in the US earn as much as the bottom 50% COMBINED.

Cash

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:05 p.m.

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/02/19/opinion/19blowcht.html?ref=opinion" rel='nofollow'>http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/02/19/opinion/19blowcht.html?ref=opinion</a> This is where Corporate Welfare and &quot; Trickle Down Economics&quot; is taking the United States......horrifying to see where we are at.

Lisa

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:54 p.m.

LC, How is asking businesses to CONTINUE to pay tax (like all individuals must do) a punishment?

DonBee

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:53 a.m.

So Cash - what is your suggestion? Nationalize all the corporations? Tax anyone who figures out how to create wealth? Help me out here - I see you ply the same statement over and over with no suggestion of how to fix it. What are your solutions?

Cash

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:25 p.m.

Uh huh...success at whose expense? Corporate welfare has to get the money from some poor schnook.

L. C. Burgundy

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10 p.m.

Surely punishing the private sector for success will fix all our problems.

aataxpayer

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 8:36 p.m.

Rick's point was not that public sector workers are grossly overpaid, but simply that we can't afford as much government as we used to have given the beating the private sector has taken. It is from that perspective that the public sector must make serious concessions, especially wit respect to benefits and legacy costs. Everybody else has done it, now the public sector must do it too.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 9:52 p.m.

&quot;businesses create real growth. The govt. does not&quot; That's why John Boehner fought for a $3 billion project to build a jet engine the Air Force doesn't want. No. Wait. It's the other way around. That government money was going to CREATE jobs in his district and profit for the manufacturer of those engines. Saying that the government does not create job is proof either or one's ignorance or of one's ideological blindness. There is no other possibility. Good Night and Good Luck

Lisa

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:52 p.m.

Braggslaw, We've cut business taxes again and again over the past 40 years while they've cut jobs, wages and benefits again and again. All while their cash piles grow and grow. Those tax cuts didn't stop Snyder and others from outsourcing production and jobs. There is no reason to believe that further tax cuts will do anything different.

Felicia

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:51 a.m.

I do not understand the generalization that public sector employees have not made concessions to equal the private sector. I know for a fact that many public employees have gone much of the past decade with no pay or benefits increases, quite the contrary. Many have experienced pay freezes, wage cuts, benefit cuts, and staff reductions to equal 10% or more of their salaries or budgets. It is understandable to look for every possible way to curb our expenses, but there does come a point when the common good is adversely effected. We need to be careful to consider all options including raising additional revenue to maintain basic services. We should require shared sacrifice, but not to those public areas who have already taken on cuts in order to responsibly address the budget crisis. Rather than making general cuts across the board, I would support the Governor's idea of rewarding those departments and institutions who have taken steps to rein in spending and penalize those who still maintain the &quot;cadillac&quot; contracts. Look at each case on its own merits.

braggslaw

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:44 a.m.

businesses create real growth. The govt. does not

Lisa

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:06 p.m.

IF we can't afford our current costs, how can we afford a tax cut for businesses then? We've taken cuts but it unreasonable to ask us to take cuts again so businesses can get a tax break.

Jacob Bodnar

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 8:29 p.m.

You show me a study that public sector pay is lower than private sector, and I'll show you one that shows private sector pay is lower than public sector. Point is, there are studies to backup both claims. But that's really not the point. The point is this, and I think you've entirely missed it. The economy tanked, private sector companies lost money, people stopped building houses, going on vacations, and buying products. Therefore private sector businesses had to adapt and adjust, they've cut pay, cut benefits, but not only that, they've cut production costs, and the smart ones have been able to survive. In the public sector, we've had budget problems, at least at the federal level, for years. Yet we continue to add public sector jobs, and continue to raise public sector pay, and benefits. It doesn't matter which one is more and which one is less, it matters that the public sector pay, for the most part, has been increasing consistently despite massive budget problems.

Lisa

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 1:43 p.m.

Jacob, I read the report. 8000 public sector jobs were added to Michigan during the recession and almost 400,000 private sector jobs were lost at the same time. Where did those jobs come from? Higher education (9% increase at the state level and 11.2% increase at community colleges) and Hospitals (27% increase at the state level and 4% local) primarily. Local government and K-12 education saw a LOSS of jobs over this period. Why? Because unemployed workers needed retraining. &quot;Demand for higher education, especially at the community college level, tends to rise with a slow- down in economic activity. Individuals return to school to seek new skills and job re-training for future employment opportunities when the economy rebounds. Enrollments at Michigan community colleges and public universities have exhibited steady annual increases coinciding with the 2001 recession. Between 2001 and 2007, enrollments increased a to- talof15percent,and employment at these institutions 17 percent.&quot; &quot;This suggests that increases in the "state" government category occurred in the higher education component, which accounts for nearly 60 percent of the jobs in this grouping.&quot;

Jacob Bodnar

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 2:59 a.m.

Lisa, I get the idea from the data. &quot;By contrast, public-sector employment rose during the period by 8,300 jobs, or 1.5 percent&quot; That number is during the 20 month recession. Meanwhile the private sector employment declined by 11%. <a href="http://www.mlive.com/jobs/index.ssf/2009/10/public_sector_employment_levels_in_michi.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mlive.com/jobs/index.ssf/2009/10/public_sector_employment_levels_in_michi.html</a> So during the recession, the public sector added over 8,000 jobs. How does that makes sense. Meanwhile Michigan Public Sector employees get paid considerably more than the average Midwestern Private Sector employee - <a href="http://www.mackinac.org/14271" rel='nofollow'>http://www.mackinac.org/14271</a>

TruBlue

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 11:54 p.m.

Completely agree Jacob MI keeps losing population but government keeps getting fatter. We need a lean, efficient government that can operate on 90% of the tax revenue they are receiving now.

Lisa

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:05 p.m.

Jacob, I don't know where you get the idea that the public sector is adding jobs. In Ann Arbor (and in many other districts, we've cut both teaching and support positions repeatedly. Our pay has been cut, our health care costs (premiums and co-pays) have soared and we are now losing 3% of our pay to pay for retiree health care that we are told we can't count on receiving. We've made adjustments, we've sacrificed. If our economy is in the hole, then it seems to me it is not the time for tax cuts for businesses and then use those cuts as an excuse to cut school funding.

5c0++ H4d13y

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.

Oh course Wall Street and investment banks were twisted by government back loans and Fan/Fred creating an artificial secondary market for liar loans and no money down loans directed by Barney &quot;roll the dice&quot; Franks.