Steve Pepple

Tue, Jun 22, 2010 : 7:21 a.m.

A comment was removed because it contained a personal attack against another commenter. In addition, it has become apparent this conversation has run its course and is now just a back-and-forth amongst a few commenters, so we are shutting off comments. Thank you for your participation.

bedrog

Tue, Jun 22, 2010 : 7:02 a.m.

debling...free movement of the gazans is properly curtailed at the israel border because of things like 'suicide bombings' and 'rocket attacks''...items that perhaps don't register in your sources of information, which seem to emanate from ' planet blainemozhgan'. in any case, gaza has a western door with egypt... ( which admittedly is also somewhat sticky... perhaps because the egyptians arent too crazy about more jihadists coming in than they already have.) how come you guys never mention that???

debling

Mon, Jun 21, 2010 : 10:55 p.m.

PALESTINE NEEDS TO BE DEFENDED The attacks on the Gaza humanitarian flotilla clearly demonstrates that Israel is far more secure than Palestine and that protecting Palestinians is the real issue. An International military force should be deployed along the Gaza borders and coast to ensure Gaza remains open to commerce and freedom of movement and to ensure Gaza is safe from Naval, Aerial and Ground attacks. Simultaneously, an arms embargo on both Israel and Palestine should be implemented immediately.

bedrog

Mon, Jun 21, 2010 : 7:24 p.m.

moderator: are we learning anything new in this thread?... well, maybe: e.g a 'boycott' means 'not buying an existing product in order to harm the producer of it'. on that basis, the only "boycott" that is, or will ever be, in opration locally is against hatemongers like the pair who've repeatedly posted here... their ( and their likeminded few compatriots) "product ' has evidently and properly been deemed toxic by the UM student council ( which has instituted new rules to curtail them; the food coop ( which has done likewise vis a vis its electioneering processes); the interfaith roundtable ( which has banned them); and the city council which clearly has no intention of acting on their incessant screechy "demands",even tho they are seen as having a right to voice them (although that may be called into question in the foreseeable future. who knows??)... so yes "blaine" and "mozhganjoumana": "boycott IS happening in ann arbor"!and perhaps one day soon you will go the way of other racist entities.... here's hopin!!

bedrog

Mon, Jun 21, 2010 : 5:36 p.m.

rebba...with all due appreciation for your evident sympathies to israel, i kinda dont think the above proposal will bring about amity... hell,several of the posters here ( guess which!!)won't even let jews in ann arbor worship in peace at their temple, which isnt even on a contested piece of territory in the middle east ( but to be fair they also obstruct city and umich business with their endless babbling, and have here...per "blaine coleman".. vowed to continue to do so) ( although it is true that all those places are in the middle/ east of washtenaw county...but i dont think that counts)

bedrog

Mon, Jun 21, 2010 : 4:40 p.m.

blaine, as to your 'when ' question: how about 'never'.? does 'never' work for you?

bedrog

Mon, Jun 21, 2010 : 3:58 p.m.

@ mr elyakin...eloquent indeed. thanks for citing that post. the a2 city council should be made as aware of it as they are of the endless defamatory, lying ( and no doubt by now incredibly boring- due- to endless -repetition) testimony by 2 of the most frequent commenters here ( and i dont mean me!)

Neal Elyakin

Mon, Jun 21, 2010 : 2:31 p.m.

I will comment by reprinting a speech given to the UN Human Rights Council by Hillel Neuer, Executive Director of UN Watch. "Mr. President, in Article 1 of the Vienna Declaration, the States assembled here committed to protect all human rights. Is the Council living up to this obligation? Focusing thematically on the right to life, let us consider one example from each of the past 12 months: June 2009Tehran. Hundreds of thousands gather peacefully to protest a questionable election. The government responds with brutality. Dozens are killed, hundreds injured, thousands arrested. JulyChina. Troops fire on Uighur protesters; 200 killed, 1700 injured. AugustRussia. Two aid workers killed in Chechnya, government complicity suspected. SeptemberYemen. Government warplanes bomb a refugee camp, killing 80. This Councils response? Silence. OctoberIraq. A terrorist attacks a mosque, killing the imam and 14 others. NovemberThe Phillipines. Fifty-seven opposition activists massacred. DecemberIran. Renewed protests meet with bullets, beatings and arrests; 10 killed. JanuaryPakistan. One hundred and eighty-two civilians killed in 42 attacks. This Councils response? Silence. FebruaryAfghanistan. A Taliban attack kills 18, injuring 32, including doctors. MarchNigeria. 500 Christians slaughtered in religious killings. AprilKyrgyzstan. Troops fire on demonstrators; 84 killed. Finally, May. Libya executes 18 foreigners, without due process. Mr. President, faced with these and other gross violations of the Vienna Declaration, what was this councils standard response? Silence. No resolutions; no urgent sessions; no investigations. Nothing. Yet two weeks ago, when Israel defended itself against violent Jihadists on the so-called humanitarian flotilla, we witnessed another standarda double standard. Suddenly the council sprang into action, with an urgent debate, a resolution condemning Israel, and yet another investigation where the guilty verdict was declared in advance. Meanwhile, in this session, not a single resolution has been adopted for 191 other countries. Mr. President, is the right to life, as guaranteed under the Vienna Declaration, being protected? Noon the contrary. And millions of victims are paying the price. Thank you, Mr. President." I believe, in other words; "nuff said"

bedrog

Mon, Jun 21, 2010 : 9:24 a.m.

@ blaine...the article you cite does not list sympathy with your one and only cause as the reason for the oakland longshoremen's actions...rather safety in the face of extremists was the reason they gave for not crossing the picket line...your usual ( antisemitic)blinder's -on take on the world. anyway how's it working out for you locally, boycott-wise? hmmmm?

rulieg

Sun, Jun 20, 2010 : 3:19 p.m.

there sure is a double standard with regard to Israel. the double standard is that, unlike every other country in the world, Israel is the ONLY country that is not allowed to defend itself against enemies that would destroy it. we can argue about pre-'67 borders and settlements and blockades all you like, but there is one incontrovertible fact: the Hamas Charter states in plain language that the destruction of the state of Israel is its primary goal. go read it and maybe you'll have a better idea why Israel cannot just blithely let anyone bring anything into Gaza uninspected. that is...if you care about the facts. if you don't, and it's just the regular anti-Israel posturing, then don't bother.

bedrog

Sun, Jun 20, 2010 : 9:14 a.m.

debling...the "contiguous" ancient residence ( you mean 'continuous' actually) of the palestinians, and the 'foreignness' of the israelis is not a given by any means, and considerable scholarship suggests that many arabs moved to what became israel only after zionists began reclaiming marginal lands ( hitherto unused or transiently used by nomadic bedouin) which they in turn acquired from the ottomans who had hegemony over the region until the end of WW1.... but indeed other arabs have been there a long time...and in places like safed and pekiin so have jews, despite the roman efforts to kick them all out after the bar kochba revolt of the 2nd century a.d. anyway the rest of your post, about the need of each to find some way of accomodating to the reality of the other is appropriate and better / more realistic than some of the extreme anti- israel stuff youve written in the past. mazal tov!

debling

Sun, Jun 20, 2010 : 8:31 a.m.

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has always been and remains a land dispute. On the one side is the native inhabitants (Palestinians) that contiguously lived in the area as a majority for almost 1400 years and foreigners from Europe/Asia/North America (Israelis) that came to conquer and settle the area in the past century and claim it as their own. Like it or not, this is the essence of the conflict. Naturally, both sides of the conflict see history through their own lenses and interpret events differently as the posters to this blog have shown. Both sides claim legitimate ownership of the area and both blame the others for failing to achieve peace. It is clear that enough history has passed that neither the Israeli's or Palestinians are leaving the area and so establishing peace requires a) defining a border between two states and b) ensuring that both sides have equal rights and protections. Since neither party can agree on a border, it must be imposed on them from the outside. The pre 1967 border with East Jerusalem going to Palestine is the most reasonable split (this gives 78% of Palestine to Israel). There should be no preconditions to going forward. All excuses about security concerns, not having an equal partner to negotiate, etc. are simply red herring arguments designed to avoid settling the land dispute. Finally, both the Israelis and Palestinians are entitled to the same levels of security, military capabilities, control of their own airspace, water and natural resources, freedom of movement, economic freedoms, etc. No one side has privilege over the other. Denying these rights to one side of the conflict and reserving it for the other would be a double standard and even worse racism at the core. So the question is not just whether the Palestinians can accept the right of Israel to exist (within the imposed borders) but equally whether Israeli's can accept the right of Palestine to exist (within the imposed borders).

bedrog

Sat, Jun 19, 2010 : 8:38 a.m.

mike maloy...you are correct, and one might add that since, by all polls, the majority of gazans support hamas, which intrudes its genocidal propaganda into even preschools,true 'innocents' are a bit hard to come by,although im sure they do exist and are indeed sad casualties of palestinian intransigence. as to credential chat, i only raised the issue in rebuttal to several ( one mainly) who blathered on with no basis in the complexities of the issues and who him/herself arrogantly..and fecklessly as it turns out.. questioned my ability to read...let alone my actual background. the other 2 are individuals who the late ann arbor news labeled as'out of control buffoons' ( a view shared by the city council, the UM student assoc, the food coop and many others), and who i make no effort to address in terms other than they so richly deserve.

Mike Maloy

Fri, Jun 18, 2010 : 8:46 p.m.

NOTE: we're not talking about those who choose to go to war... we are talking about innocent refugees, most of which are being held in Gaza to this very day. Innocent refugees displaced by war are not specific to Israel, or the near east, or the last sixty years. They have been, and continue to be, an inherent result of war in general. I see a legitimacy issue in terms of those who would claim a double standard upon the United States while placing an impossible and historically unprecedented standard on Israel. NOTE: If U.N. resolutions were worth the paper they are written on, Gaza would be the most peaceful and serene place on the planet. With regard to all the boasting about degrees, experience, libraries, etcI can respect that, but find it altogether unnecessary. Some things in this world are really quite simple. John of Saline pretty much nailed it. The Arabs started a war and they lostthey dont get their land back.

bedrog

Thu, Jun 17, 2010 : 4:51 p.m.

longfellow...i see the batteries are still working...im sure the israelis are calling a special knesset meeting as we speak to address your points, which seem to be : -payoffs ( which you demand)will placate homi/suicidal jihadists even tho THEY demand a jew free middle east -ancient urban mesopotamians ca 5000 years ago are the same thing as modern palestinians, but jews ( who supposedly cribbed their religion from those mesopotamians) dont count in the longfellowian legitimate population scheme of things. thank you for the constructive and oh so accurate thoughts. you and blainemozhganjoumana absolutely deserve each other. shalom/as salaam aleikum/ and kish mir in tuchas ( an ancient akkadian salutation)

Bill Wilson

Thu, Jun 17, 2010 : 3:28 p.m.

1 bit...actually i am indeed angry about this issue, and as to arrogant...well, i do have a pretty good knowledge of the region, fairly earned, and well enough regarded to have gotten early tenure,... and at one time i was quite sympathetic to the islamic/arab view of things... Frankly, your behavior as to the name-calling speaks for itself, as does the fact that you've ducked every point in my posts. I do not believe a word you say. As to the points, the pro-Israel group avoids the logic like Superman avoids Kryptonite. The facts remain: Israel agreed to honor U.N. Resolution 194 in December of 1948. Article 11 clearly states: "(Article 11) Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible." Near 1 million refugees (Arabs and Christians) that fled their lands in the face of war have been denied their human rights, and this continues to this day. NOTE: we're not talking about those who choose to go to war... we are talking about innocent refugees, most of which are being held in Gaza to this very day. Now, the reader should pay close attention to the nonsense offered here: Does the claim that there were no peoples in Palestine before the creation of Israel (read: the "mythical Palestinians" remark)make sense to you? Does it make sense to you that every one of the nearly 1 million all chose to go to war? You see, if you are to believe bedrog, then you must choose one of the two scenarios above. To deny that there were innocent people who were forced to flee for their lives in the face of war is simply, ludicrous. These people have been victimized long enough. Time for Israel to pay its debts!

bedrog

Thu, Jun 17, 2010 : 2:37 p.m.

@ blaine...yes indeed, the city council DOES keep hearing demands for boycott..mostly from you and mozhganjoumana...and that's, as much as anything, why there will be NO BOYCOTT in ann arbor ( at the city council, coop, um etc etc), let alone nationally..

John of Saline

Thu, Jun 17, 2010 : 1:04 p.m.

In 1948, the Arab nations kicked out hundreds of thousands of Jews. Israel took them in, instead of intentionally creating a permanent refugee problem. Also, those Arabs that didn't flee in 1948 are Israeli citizens, with full rights (better, actually, as they don't have to serve in the military). The Palestinians demand that any lands they rule be Judenrein. (Perhaps not a surprise, as the Mufti of Jerusalem during World War 2 was a good friend of Hitler.) The apartheid comparison is idiotic. By the way, why didn't Egypt and Jordan set up a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza in 1948? Instead, they just annexed the land. Also, a few lists. List of Islamic sites damaged or destroyed by Israel within its territories: none. They follow their obligations under the 1994 accords, etc. The list of Jewish sites under Palestinian control damaged or destroyed: all of them, some with mosques built over them. The Palestinians, with enthusiastic Arab, European, and leftist support, don't bother to follow the 1994 accords, which called on both sides to protect religious sites. Losing wars has consequences. The Arab world launched two wars of extermination (1948 and 1973) and were about to launch another in 1967 when they got a surprise just ahead of time. They lost them all. Ask Germany what happened to East Prussia, capital Konigsberg, after they lost their own war of extermination. (Hint: there aren't any Germans there any more.)

bedrog

Thu, Jun 17, 2010 : 10:37 a.m.

amen to contremelice...and i'd simply add that its perfectly reasonable...and indeed commendably sane...for israelis to value their own citizens more than they do jihad oriented arabs/muslims,like hamas.....who clearly also don't value their own ( via suicide bomber adulation at the grade school level, 'honor' killings of ones own family,and the use of civilians as human shields...when you cant get addled foreign apologists for jihadists to act in the same role. and of course place negative value on jewish lives. thankfully the u.s. govt...bipartisanly...DOES recognize the asymmetry in moral stance of the adversaries in the middle east and backs the right side..

ContreMilice

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 11:33 p.m.

"When Israel trades 500 Arabs for 1 Israel prisoner, it shows what worth they place on Arabs." --1bit Sorry, this is a display of ignorance. It is the _terrorists,_ i.e., Hamas and Hezbollah, e.g., who make these outrageous demands that Israel free 100s, sometimes over a 1,000, terrorists at once for one or two Israeli _corpses!_ It is Israel that places a very high value on life (the only state in the Middle East that is not only a democracy but the only entity therein that has no capital punishment) not those amongst their not-so-neighborly neighbors who seem to worship death to the point that they celebrate sending their children off to not only die but take as many innocent Israelis and others who want to live along for the deadly ride! At least the Israelis return _living_ former prisoners to their enemies at great and renewed risks to themselves as many of those they free are convicted murderers! All the Israelis ever get back for their unbelievable largesse are the badly mangled and bloated corpses of their soldiers or other citizens! Please get your details straight if you want to make such remarkably unbalanced claims to try to prop up opinions, not facts.

bedrog

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 3:16 p.m.

1 bit...actually i am indeed angry about this issue, and as to arrogant...well, i do have a pretty good knowledge of the region, fairly earned, and well enough regarded to have gotten early tenure,... and at one time i was quite sympathetic to the islamic/arab view of things... but, as with a bad marriage, sometimes knowledge leads to less...rather than more...sympathy. i.e. 'postjudice', which is fair...as opposed to 'prejudice ' which is always wrong... another thing that irks me...and that i dont suffer from..is the inability to feel embarrasment when i am indeed shown to be wrong. that's my gripe with longfellow and the happy couple ( and their synogogue harassing cohorts)who were repeatedly visible earlier in this thread. you, however, actually sound reasonable(although i object to the skewed way youve phrased your points) and amenable to other points of view...,and it'd be nice to chat perhaps,if there were a way to meet up. i dont know how that would work,tho, since although i am quite visible on these matters in my own name, i also do value the tactical aspects of this sort of anonymous internet playground.

demistify

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 2:33 p.m.

@1bit -- I am in complete agreement with you that there are dire possibilities in the absence of peace. Real peace requires mutual agreement to live-and-let-live. It cannot be achieved unilaterally. Israel is a democracy in which a substantial majority favors a negotiated peace (with disagreements on the details). There is no democracy on the other side. Gaza is run by Hamas because it outgunned the PLO (The Hamas program is the total destruction of Israel; is that your idea of peace?). The West Bank is run by the PLO because it outgunned Hamas. There have been Palestinians who wanted democracy and peace, but they had no guns and so they were marginalized (often killed or exiled). Sure, it would be a better world if the good guys would prevail. How do you propose to get there? One-sided bashing of Israel is not the answer.

DonBee

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 1:09 p.m.

The problems in the Middle East existed more than 3,000 years ago, according to the fragments of documentation that have been found. The region has seen more years of war, as far as I can see in the history books (sometimes only limited civil wars) than peace. This is one of the toughest problems on the planet to solve. Both sides have done wrong by the other. Many of the terrorist problems in the world have their roots in this struggle. Airline hijacking started here. Every time one side does something to the other, more people have a reason to continue their "struggle". The flotilla that was stopped was done to inflame world opinion, it worked. The use of cement for bunkers and tunnels is one of the reasons that building materials are a problem. The use of tanks and bulldozers leads to the feeling that bunkers are needed. The borders are closed not just by Israel, but Egypt too. I doubt that the problems can be solved. Even if you were to remove Israel from the region and all the Jewish people, other tensions would exist between the remaining peoples there. I want to thank Mr. Mitchell for years of dedication to trying to find a solution. I am not sure that either side really wants a solution to this. That just leaves me sad.

Macabre Sunset

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 12:54 p.m.

Sometimes I think people in Ann Arbor will only be happy if the elected ruling party in Palestine gets its way and massacres every Jewish man, woman and child in the region, as is expressed in their official charter. The only double-standard is the one that criticizes Israel for any act of defense. The use of the word apartheid by the writer of this letter is just ugly. I'm saddened that this blog printed the letter, but not surprised.

Speechless

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 11:34 a.m.

"... anyway israel will survive and thrive..." Israel thrives only for as long as the U.S. keeps pumping well over two billion dollars a year into its small economy. If and when the U.S. stops, it's game over. Having alienated virtually every other country on the planet, there will be no donor nation with deep pockets to step in and take the place of the U.S. as Israel's sponsor. Once off the dole, the country will have to change its ways and learn to get along in its neighborhood. Otherwise, a defunded, impoverished Israel that waves nukes in front of its neighbors will look an awful lot like North Korea. In addition, we pay Egypt (next door) a somewhat lesser amount to behave and stay quiet, and Jordan has been getting close to $500 million in chump change. Between Israel, Egypt and Jordan, that's just about $5 billion in our taxes which the feds — alternately — could redistribute instead to all the U.S. states to help balance their budgets, at a national average of $100 million to each state.

demistify

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 10:25 a.m.

"I wish I were wise enough to make them have tea and settle this; I am not." Jihadists do not fortify themselves with tea, they use hashish (That is the origin of the word "assassin"). Hamas (which seized control of Gaza by force of arms) specializes in shooting rockets at kindergartens and suicide-bombing weddings. Its stated non-negotiable goal is the complete destruction of Israel and the elimination of its Jewish population. What does that leave to settle?

demistify

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 10:03 a.m.

@1bit -- To the extent that Gaza can be likened to a cage, the initial blame falls to Egypt, not Israel. When the Arab armies failed in the attempt to crush the emerging Israeli state in 1948, they rounded up the Arabs fleeing the Jewish-held areas into concentration camps (euphemistically called "refugee camps"). They did not want them and planned to ship them back after the next shot at destroying Israel. When this failed again and again, while the UN took over feeding the inmates, the main business of these enclaves became terrorism. Meanwhile, an equal number of Jews had fled from Arab countries into Israel; they were welcomed and integrated.

bedrog

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 6:18 a.m.

@1bit and aataxpeayer...re the "best ever' post, you folks may not be aware that,like the tango, it takes 2 to make peace/war... israel actually has a single government that has repeatedly tried to do just that ( although currently seeming, perhaps understandably, a bit weary of the effort!).. and been rewarded by mortars and suicide bombers from the multiple internally hostile factions that make up the palestinain 'people', especially from areas israel gave back to their occupants.... but nevermind. as barney frank remarked when confronted with a teapartier" its like talking to a piece of furniture"... anyway israel will survive and thrive and we local supporters ( and CONSTRUCTIVE critics) will continue to successfully do our bit re homegrown jihad wannabes.

bedrog

Wed, Jun 16, 2010 : 6 a.m.

to longfellow and ilk...perhaps you confuse 'babylon' with 'babble on'. and re."reading challenged", the ire of the local sane against the synagogue harassing, zionist/jew bashing crew..( your buddies?)...is hardly because of an isolated incident 7 years ago, per the WASHTENAW JEWISH NEWS articles on them multiply referenced here ( 'false witnesses 'series jan, feb,mar)... and if one wants to simplistically conflate present occupants of the middle east with the sumerians as you seem to, include the jews too please...althought they had a bit of a diversion along the way ( as indeed do many of the arabs, many being far ranging nomads not too far back in history....actually many of THEM did a pretty good job of dispossessing other locals at various points, ala the arab beni hillal and beni sulaim to north africas berbers.). anyway a final point before i leave you to your "energizer bunny's hyperactive brother" routine: anyone who so one- sidedly condemns israel for responding to the threats it faces is actually more of an anti arab/muslim sort than anti semitic ( and please..no rants about how everyone in the region is a semite.look in the dictionary!!)...and this is because you patronizingly treat jihad- minded arabs/muslims ( like hamas and the majority of gazans that support them) like dim children, devoid of all accountability /responsibility for ongoing atrocious behavior to not just other faiths but themselves.

D. Mike Rossi

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 9:58 p.m.

Brian, below are links for three of the many reports of the open nature of civil society in Baghdad that you refer to. They clearly support your views of the tolerance and acceptance of the totalitarian state in Iraq and the effect on the social environment. These reports both document people having a peaceful evenings in the shops and restaurants with their families and the shock and awe of the Hussein Family. The Sum of Two Evils: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030602-454453,00.html Uday: career of rape, torture and murder: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jul/23/iraq.suzannegoldenberg Two decades on, war victims of Saddam Hussein's gas attacks draw their last breath: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3564198.ece As you say, "the reports were numerous, as our media went back and forth to Iraq pre war. Of course there is the offhand chance that the liberal media was lying to us! They were, always, acting in their own personal best interests with Terror. And it was acceptable to be "disorderly", when you are the state!

Bill Wilson

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 9:29 p.m.

aataxpayer/longfellow..if you,aa, were paying attention for the past 7 years its the israel bashers that started the name calling ( and defamation, lying, synagogue harassing etc etc etc) and only lately have some on the other side started playing catch up ball...and evidently quite effectively because the worst anti semites ( whoops! 'anti-zionists"), who are posting here,...and everywhere they can sneak in.. have been stymied at many of the local hyper tolerant institutions they previously hectored with impunity...e.g the food coop, the city council, the um student association, assorted peace and justice groups...and so it will continue and escalate..and good for us!! ( but maybe you know all this already!!) I see, so once again, we are to ignore your bad behavior here on this thread because some unnamed party at some unnamed place allegedly called someone a name some 7 years ago. longfellow...your point is what?, (other than compulsively needing a "last word?")_. in fact samuel noah kramer would indeed deplore your citing him and his work as a reason to negate israels legitimacy... Actually, the points made as to Kramer's work were to rebut Tru's claim that the indigenous people in Palestine are "mythical." Can you not read? as to sources for semitic religions, yes indeed! judaism, as it evolved from your hated 'habiru'(some of whom like the real--or mythical..it doesnt really matter!.. abraham supposedly originated in mesopotamian urban centers, at least according to one of the more plausible parts of genesis). and indeed it owes much to the sumerians/akkadians/babylonians..and later persian zoroastrians for that matter....( by the way my main research was with islamic nomadic tribes both in person and via the textual and archeological record, should you want to go off on one of your faux scholarly riffs about the habiru). From my "hated habiru"????? The above paragraph illustrates well why I believe few of your claims. The notion that vetting history somehow amounts to hatred when it reveals something that goes against our personal beliefs is just not something one expects from a true academic. Kramer was not a disloyal Jew for discovering and revealing in his books that the stories in the Bible/Torah are all taken from the original Sumerian: he was a brilliant scholar. but likewise islamic theology owes pretty much everything to judaism and christianity...and it 's secular intellectual attainment in its early days to the greeks/romans....e.g the much vaunted medieval islamic medical tradition, embodied by avicenna and averoes, is called 'yunani' i.e. "ionian" by arabs themselves. indeed if one were able to mount 'a theft of intellectual property' lawsuit the jews would be in the clear since all ancient babylonians are dead...but muslims regularly defame living populations of jews and christians from whom they cribbed almost their entire theological raison d'etre. Again, the point made was that the Sumerian record allows us to be certain as to the origins of the peoples in that region of the world. in any case israel is a strong fact "on the ground" and it is delusional and self -destructive for arab/muslims to fantasize and act otherwise...and vicariously futile for western jihadist groupies, who dont even have a "dog in the fight', to egg them on... Again, evidence that throws more doubt on your claims of scholarship. You were saying about it being better to keep your mouth closed.....?

David Briegel

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 8:56 p.m.

I won't argue with most of your criticism except to say that there were many reports of the open nature of civil society in Baghdad that was quite inclusive of any and all religions and ethnicities. I know full well of all the abuses and atrocities. Baghdad was anything but a "pollyanna paradise"! I wasn't referring to Islamic nations or societies but rather, pre-war Baghdad. But in a totalitarian state such as Iraq (and many of our "friends") there was a tolerance and even acceptance of people of different stripes in a social environment. It was unacceptable to be "disorderly" without the approval of the state! I specifically remember the reports of all the different ethnicities and religions who were having a peaceful evening in their shops and restaurants with their families as we blew up entire city blocks at the beginning of shock and awe. Covered live for the viewing pleasure of the masses! I am not in any way defending the Saddam regime. Neither am I a scholar of middle eastern affairs. But the reports were numerous as our media went back and forth to Iraq pre war. Of course there is the offhand chance that the liberal media was lying to us! And I certainly have never, ever said America and Israel are THE only problem. However, they aren't always acting in their own best interests or without error!

D. Mike Rossi

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 8:14 p.m.

Marina B. Brown, Mozhgan, Blaine Coleman Double standard???? You really need to give all the facts. Many of you seem to have forgotten Israel's RESTRAINT back in the Gulf War back in 1991. Saddam Hussein attacked Israel several times with scud missiles, killing innocent men, women and children in an attempt to provoke Israel. Amid retaliation speculation, Israel had promised not to respond to Iraq's attack. read it for yourselves the USA TODAY website is below. http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/iraq/nirq050.htm Israel has every right and reason to suspect everyone and to defend themselves. Have you also forgotten the Munich Olympics where all of the Innocent Israeli Olympian hostages were killed? What about the Raid on Entebbe where in the wake of the hijacking of an Air France passenger flight from Tel Aviv by members of the militant organizations Revolutionary Cells and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, along with the hijackers' threats to kill the Israeli/Jewish hostages, if their demands were not met? Do you remember Leon Klinghoffer he was a disabled American appliance manufacturer who was murdered and thrown overboard by Palestinian terrorists in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro in 1985. How about Anwar Sadat? His visit to Israel and the eventual Camp David Accords won him the Nobel Peace Prize, but was an act enormously unpopular amongst Egyptians and other Arabs, and resulted in Egypt being suspended from the Arab League. The peace treaty was the primary reason given by Khalid Islambouli, one of Sadat's assassins, for his opposition to Sadat. Islamists were enraged by Sadat's Sinai treaty with Israel, particularly the radical Egyptian Islamic Jihad. They sound familiar. Ships sailing the high seas are generally under the jurisdiction of the flag state. However, when a ship is involved in certain criminal acts, any nation can exercise jurisdiction under the doctrine of universal jurisdiction. So you see Israel was within their rights to inspect the ship. Shame on the Supporters of the Flotilla's "PROTESTERS" for "their" lack of moral compass. They are the ones displaying the real double standard. They are the enabling and double-faced ones. The Freedom Flotilla had one goal and that was to provoke an international incident and confrontation. If we defended our boarders the way Israel defends theirs 9-11 and other attacks never would've happened! Marina B. Brown, Mozhgan, Blaine Coleman, i look forward to your responses to the points i raised.

bedrog

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 7:54 p.m.

aataxpayer/longfellow..if you,aa, were paying attention for the past 7 years its the israel bashers that started the name calling ( and defamation, lying, synagogue harassing etc etc etc) and only lately have some on the other side started playing catch up ball...and evidently quite effectively because the worst anti semites ( whoops! 'anti-zionists"), who are posting here,...and everywhere they can sneak in.. have been stymied at many of the local hyper tolerant institutions they previously hectored with impunity...e.g the food coop, the city council, the um student association, assorted peace and justice groups...and so it will continue and escalate..and good for us!! ( but maybe you know all this already!!) longfellow...your point is what?, (other than compulsively needing a "last word?")_. in fact samuel noah kramer would indeed deplore your citing him and his work as a reason to negate israels legitimacy... as to sources for semitic religions, yes indeed! judaism, as it evolved from your hated 'habiru'(some of whom like the real--or mythical..it doesnt really matter!.. abraham supposedly originated in mesopotamian urban centers, at least according to one of the more plausible parts of genesis). and indeed it owes much to the sumerians/akkadians/babylonians..and later persian zoroastrians for that matter....( by the way my main research was with islamic nomadic tribes both in person and via the textual and archeological record, should you want to go off on one of your faux scholarly riffs about the habiru). but likewise islamic theology owes pretty much everything to judaism and christianity...and it 's secular intellectual attainment in its early days to the greeks/romans....e.g the much vaunted medieval islamic medical tradition, embodied by avicenna and averoes, is called 'yunani' i.e. "ionian" by arabs themselves. indeed if one were able to mount 'a theft of intellectual property' lawsuit the jews would be in the clear since all ancient babylonians are dead...but muslims regularly defame living populations of jews and christians from whom they cribbed almost their entire theological raison d'etre. in any case israel is a strong fact "on the ground" and it is delusional and self -destructive for arab/muslims to fantasize and act otherwise...and vicariously futile for western jihadist groupies, who dont even have a "dog in the fight', to egg them on...

Bill Wilson

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 6:05 p.m.

longfellow:re samuel noah kramer...yeah, he taught my uncle hebrew and did his seminal work on the sumerians at my alma mater. he would be appalled at the uses to which you have put his work ( i remember you from m.live days and your 'habiru 'bashing''... For the reader: Kramer (1897-1990) was the foremost expert in the sumero-akkadian language, and even 80 years later, his cuneiform translations are second to none. What's the relevance? The Sumerian's were the world's first super-culture: all languages, religions, sciences, etc... take their root from the Sumerians. The Sumerian's developed the world's first libraries, and it's been said that we have recovered more than 1 million cuneiform tablets. Of these, some 90% are related to business/legal transactions, so we a complete record and datable (via the cuneiform structure) record of the entire region. Thus, the claim that the indigenous people in the area currently referred to as Palestine are "mythical" is not supported by the record. As to the notion that any serious academic scholar, and especially one in the field of linguistics, would allow his personal beliefs to color his work is ludicrous. Kramer understood full well that all of the stories in the Bible/Torah are taken from the original Sumerian: he himself revealed it! Again, I don't believe for a New York minute that any of these people who are spouting this nonsense would just stand by if we were to force them out of their homes and deny them payment. It just doesn't pass the smell test. This is America, and we don't make decisions on the law based on who we like or dislike. Time for Israel to pay its debts.

bedrog

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 4:07 p.m.

i detect a certain weariness in the screeds of blaine/mozhgan/joumana..same phrases, same inflated stats, same bogus accusations, lies and insults, same links to likeminded extremist websites etc.... so to allow them some rest i suggest using numbers for their usual formulae. e.g #1= racist apartheid state of "israel' ( quotes required) #2= innocent victim neighbor states/entities ( e.g hamas and hizbollah....and their patron iran) #3.= millions ( a favorite catch all number meaning in reality "some") 4= peace loving peoples of the world ( i.e antisemites here and there) 5= zionist butchers ( or butcher zionists...or simply 'butch zionists' since they seem to like fred phelps' approach to things) 6= boycott so here's how a sample letter from them could look: 126266624....or 64423116666...or 444623166622 get the idea? think of the missed sleep they could catch up on!! and moderator...i implore you to not delete this,as its not a 'personal attack'...rather its a constructive effort toward their, and their readers, wellbeing. thanks.

demistify

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 12:51 p.m.

No, David, Saddam was not an equal-opportunity mass-murderer. Most of his henchmen were Sunnis (preferably from his own tribe), a few Christians (Tariq Aziz), some Shia in his earlier days. He killed Kurdish women and children with poison gas, and hundreds of thousands corpses (mostly Shia) have been found in mass graves. There were not many Kurds hanging out in Baghdad in those days. As to Jews, the American troops encountered a dozen elderly ones (who were promptly evacuated) in the entire country, not enough to man many cafes. There had been a thriving Jewish community in Iraq before the Nazi-inspired Baath came to power. In the last years of his rule, Saddam handed out $15,000 bounties to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. The Iraqis are having a hard time getting the hang of democracy (they never had it) but even at the worst times of communal strife the bodies have piled up much slower than under Saddam, even if we don't count the million who died in the war he started against Iran.

bedrog

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 10:42 a.m.

david...honestly now!!! before 'shock and awe' ( which admittedly has not been a huge success) baghdad was ruled by a gentleman who had been raised by an uncle /poet whose major opus was a work entitled "3 things god never should have made: persians, flies, and jews". you seem like a reasonable fellow on other threads but seem to have this naive...and frankly tiresome... notion that without u.s./western/ israeli actions the islamic middle east was a polyanna paradise. demystify is quite correct in his references to the "dhimmi' institution...i.e sometimes jews and christians were indeed protected and tolerated, since they paid infidel taxes ( jizya) to fund islamic hegemonic institutions....and sometimes they werent trated well at all...it depended on the ruler and his caprices entirely,from the earliest days of islamic conquest to the present do learn a bit of actual islamic history before opining so frequently and dogmatically. and remember the venerable proverb ( as should longfellow, mozhgan, ms brown et al): 'sometimes it's better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"

David Briegel

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 10:27 a.m.

Kind of makes you miss Baghdad where Christians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs and any others could hang out in the same cafes! Before shock and awe!

demistify

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 9:57 a.m.

Since we seem to be in the mood for scholarship (and bogus scholarship), I find it strange that the Letter uses the foreign (and relatively newfangled) term "apartheid" instead of the established Near Eastern term "dhimmi". This was the policy in Moslem countries of allowing infidels second-class citizenship (enlivened by an occasional pogrom), including restrictions on where they could live and a special head tax. Such benevolence has gone out of fashion in most Arab regimes, replaced by ethnic cleansing. Hamas allows no infidels in Gaza, except for foreigners working for aid agencies. In West Bank areas ruled by Palestinians, no Jews are allowed and the number of Christians has been dwindling; the Hamas mayor of Bethlehem has proposed building a mosque on Manger Square.

bedrog

Tue, Jun 15, 2010 : 6:19 a.m.

longfellow:re samuel noah kramer...yeah, he taught my uncle hebrew and did his seminal work on the sumerians at my alma mater. he would be appalled at the uses to which you have put his work ( i remember you from m.live days and your 'habiru 'bashing''... also re your calls to mutual courtesy, tell that to eric m. mozhgan...re your and blaines endless 'boycottboycottboycott" youll be delighted to learn that UC irvine just suspended a muslim student group youve often cited as one of your examples of the trend.. oh wait, that's ME and other "reasonables" who're delighted... not you.

Bill Wilson

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 11:03 p.m.

In the 60-odd years you talk about, the Israelis have repeatedly had to launch counter attacks and impose restrictions on these mythical "Palestinians" after they (repeatedly) used the liberties given them under the agreement you mention to kill Israelis. Mythical "Palestinians"??? Sorry, I had to stop laughing long enough to post. Try reading any of Professor Kramer's books on the subject. I recommend "Summerian Mythology"... from memory, originally released in 1944. "History Begins At Sumer" (1957, I think) is also quite good. Got his entire collection, too. You seem to be lacking in your study of history.

Bill Wilson

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 10:08 p.m.

longfellow...re your typically overreaching post,i have a doctorate in islamic studies and taught and wrote on relevant subjects for 35 years at 2 of the major universities in the country.... Longfellow wrote to bedrog: "Try popping a book open sometime, and actually studying the subject." Ha-ha!! Just wanted to let you know that we're enjoying your embarrassment. Turns out, bedrog is a career scholar in this area. Which in turn suggests: you are not. I provided evidence. These two (?) tell us to "trust me." Anyone trust em? That's what I thought.

MozhganSavabieasfahani

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 9:24 p.m.

The U.S. double standard topic seems to have been left out of many of the posts. Still the discussion is about Zionist narration verses the truth. For years Zionists and their closet supports have been lying about historical events and how Zionists committed ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and robbed their land. In America, until recently, Zionists had managed to fool Americans into believing that it was Palestinians who were occupying Israeli land and not the other way around. Those days are long gone. Because of unimaginable Israeli violence and outlaw behavior in the past few years (slaughter of 1500 Lebanese in 2006, leaving a million out of a total of 5 million homeless and destroying the Lebanese infrastructureslaughter of Gaza in 2008; 1500 or more dead and the illegal wall and blockade that has deprived many of medical care and thousands in daily agony, use of white phosphorous and who knows what other kinds of weaponry), and to top it off the murder of human rights activist who were trying to deliver medicine and food to starving Gazans, has truly shown the real face of Israel to the world. Neither the media, nor the general citizenry is willing to ignore such repeated disregard for human life and international laws by Israel any more. The Zionist veto power in American is No More! That is what really terrifies Israel and its supporters. On top of that, the international boycott movement is growing steadily. By September (when universities open) many campuses with small boycott Israel groups will have all the reasons to push hard for boycott. The student body and the overall university communities will be much more open to discuss boycott ideas. I look forward to that.

bedrog

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 6:51 p.m.

longfellow...re your typically overreaching post,i have a doctorate in islamic studies and taught and wrote on relevant subjects for 35 years at 2 of the major universities in the country.... hence my distain ( and indeed loathing for some who know who they are!!) for those here who are nattering on about things they know little about,particularly in relation to islamic history and culture ( which aint particularly pretty, once you get past the architecture, carpets and often excellent food. what's your story re the hostility to the one 1/2 way decent ( albeit not perfect...but who is?)country in the region??

David Briegel

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 4:52 p.m.

One of the most foolish mistakes of the 20th Century was to create an independent state of Israel and not an independent state of Palestine! And still the insanity continues. Neverending. Perpetual War. Holy War. Profits abound! In the name of God! I agree with Top Cat. There is no desire for peace on either side. The both suck on the same teet! US!

MozhganSavabieasfahani

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 4:03 p.m.

United States continues its double standard routine in the Middle East. American people can join the rest of humanity and do the right thing. Across the world ordinary citizens are organizing for total boycott of Israel. See the news on Norwegian Port Workers Union Join its Swedish Union in Boycotting All Israeli Ships Sunday June 13, 2010). The link is at: http://www.aljazeerah.info/News/2010/June/13%20n/Norwegian%20Port%20Workers%20Union%20Join%20its%20Swedish%20Union%20in%20Boycotting%20All%20Israeli%20Ships.htm "Responding to calls by the Palestinian Workers Union and other calls by different workers unions and organizations around the world, the Norwegian Ports Union decided to join its Swedish counterpart in boycotting all Israeli ships starting on June 15."

demistify

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 4:01 p.m.

The attack on Longfellow by Blaine and Mozhgan Coleman (aka joumana) demonstrates that their concern is not with the welfare of the Palestinians but rather with a Final Solution. They oppose the concept of apartheid because it implies ethnic groups co-existing (under whatever conditions). They favor instead ethnic cleansing, the elimination of Jews from all of greater Palestine (not just Gaza and Ramallah, but also Tel Aviv) and espouse the Hamas program of extirpating the State of Israel.

Top Cat

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 12:34 p.m.

We should end our billions of dollars of aid to Israel, Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinians and let them figure it out amoung themselves. We have enough problems here demanding our attention and our treasure.

Bill Wilson

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 11:33 a.m.

andlongfellow... thanks so much for your simple solution to the middle east problem...silly me had always thought that 'drive them into the sea' and 'hunt the jews down as they hide' ( ala hamas' charter) meant something more than 'pay us off'.... bedrog, Try popping a book open sometime, and actually studying the subject. The solution I state is hardly mine, nor is it new: Israel agreed to these terms in 1948. But in the 60 some years since, they have refused to honor the agreement. Instead, they pretend that all of the displaced people (at that time, near 1 million) were terrorists. That game continues to this day, in an attempt to run out the clock on these victim's property rights. If I decided that I wanted your house, forced you out, and then declared that I would not pay for your property because I decided you were a threat, I don't believe for a New York minute that you'd shrug and say "Oh well.. I guess it's Longfellow's house now." We all would be able to identify you: you'd be the one screaming the loudest. Have the same respect for others you'd allot for yourself!

bedrog

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 8:25 a.m.

@mozhgan....oh so MALCOLM X wasnt a fan of jews??? golly what a surprise!!!! and such a persuasive argument against israel!!......since im sure israelis have now had their eyes opened, i guess i'll go and help them pack up now, to return to whereever ( per malcolm and helen thomas.....those kindly and clearheaded sorts, along of course with you, blaine the other synagogue stalkers.... and the ever erudite 'longfellow' who knows so much about so much... of course in your particular case, given your oft -expressed hamas sympathies, there really is no place in the world a jew can go without being a target, is there?. that may present a problem re israel moving day!!!

bedrog

Mon, Jun 14, 2010 : 7:06 a.m.

gee..im surprised that a number of the posters here ( moderators...multiple screen names are being used by 2 of them...a fact..not a 'personal attack!!) are wasting their time here when they could be planning a 'welcome home' event for helen thomas who was just sacked and reviled for milder anti-semitic sentiments than they regularly express. andlongfellow... thanks so much for your simple solution to the middle east problem...silly me had always thought that 'drive them into the sea' and 'hunt the jews down as they hide' ( ala hamas' charter) meant something more than 'pay us off'.... actually alot of suicide bombers seem to agree with me...but nevermind!

Bill Wilson

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 9:15 p.m.

Longfellow, sounds like you would have responded to a claim for liberation of slaves with "the slavemasters have paid the debt owed to the slaves by feeding them everyday, providing shelter [i.e. barns to sleep in] and giving them bibles for enlightenment." So, you're claiming that Israel is a nation of slaves? You might want to obtain copies of David Ben-Gurion's books (I own every one). In them, he admits that bringing in the bulldozers was pre-planned. He also states the goal of Israel: a socialist state. Look it up: "Rebirth and Destiny of Israel" by David Ben-Gurion (published in 1954 - I have an autographed copy), Page 141.

Joumana

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 8:44 p.m.

Longfellow, sounds like you would have responded to a claim for liberation of slaves with "the slavemasters have paid the debt owed to the slaves by feeding them everyday, providing shelter [i.e. barns to sleep in] and giving them bibles for enlightenment."

Bill Wilson

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 8:19 p.m.

It's interesting that those who often cite history tend to cite only the parts that support their arguments. In an interview with the members of the Conciliations Commission, David Ben-Gurion claimed (that) 'as long as Israel could not count on the dedication of any Arab refugee to remain at peace with their neighbors, resettlement was not an obligation for his country.' However, the who, how, and why Palestinians left their homes is, to quote the lawyers, a distinction without a difference. Article 11 of the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 (passed on December 11, 1948) is very clear on this: "(Article 11) Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible." The Right of Return, as well as other rights recognized by the entirety of Resolution 194 are not collective, as Ben-Gurion later claimed (and Israel continues to claim to this day). These rights pertain to the individual. The question begs: shouldn't Arab nations who may have culpability in the displacement of the more than 700,000 refugees also be held responsible? Most, I'm sure, would say; yes. However, equity was awarded to Israel, and therefore the consideration( the other principal element of this contract) falls upon Israel's shoulders. Simply put: until Israel pays its 60 year old debt owed to the individual owners of the land, the ownership of the land remains with those individual owners, and Israel's occupation of their land is illegal.

Joumana

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 8:18 p.m.

"the Zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history... not even in their own religion." Malcolm X, The Egyptian Gazette, Sept. 17, 1964 http://www.malcolm-x.org/docs/gen_zion.htm

Mick52

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 6:57 p.m.

After I posted, I found this article: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100613/OPINION03/6130303/In-the-world-s-eyes--Israel-is-always-wrong Charles Krauthammer is a well respected scholar. I suppose some will accuse him of lying but I challenge anyone to disprove with facts what he writes. This article describes how Israel has more than enough cause to carry on as it does.

MozhganSavabieasfahani

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 6:08 p.m.

About the Gaza massacre, and Marina Browns excellent letter: The Israeli government is now put in charge of investigating its own crimes on board the Gaza aid flotilla! It is just as absurd as putting the U.S. Army in charge of investigating U.S. atrocities against Iraqis and Afghans; the same as putting the British Army in charge of investigating the crimes of Britain in Basra, Iraq. After the kinds of outright disasters and lies Israel has been perpetrating, who would ever believe anything remotely resembling the truth will come out of Israeli military investigations into the Gaza flotilla attacks? Putting the wolf in charge of investigating sheep slaughter, looking to the wolf to uncover the truth, is simply absurd. The good news is that the world no longer buys this kind of whitewash any more. Repeated lying by Israeli leaders, restricting the flow of unbiased news from Palestine to the outside world, the most recent Israeli assassination of Palestinian political leader, and the arrogance with which it was carried out, they all point to one main lesson: Israel and its leaders never tell the truth. Anything out of their mouth is sure to be a complete lie. This lesson has been learned at a great price. The price has been the blood of thousands of Palestinian victims, Lebanese victims and international victims of Israeli raids and massacres. Boycotting Israel is the only sure way to stop further Israeli rampage and bloodshed.

Mick52

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 5:37 p.m.

I agree with bedrog. What a propagandistic letter this is. My understanding of this last confrontation from numerous media reports is that the Israelis examined nine ships for weapons and other than humanitarian aid but there was no violence until the last ship was boarded. The problem in the region is that the Palestinian govt has no control over jihadist Hamas. Until Palestinians can control insurgents, we cannot blame Israel from protecting itself. Too bad our govt is turning its back on an old ally that has suffered enough.

MozhganSavabieasfahani

Sun, Jun 13, 2010 : 11:51 a.m.

U.S. double standard permeates through all its foreign policy. It does not stop with treatment of Israel and its crimes. Imagine the way U.S. treats Iran and compare it to how it treats Israel. Israel has 300 atom bombs; Israel is constantly invading its neighbors and bombing them and constantly threatens to do more of the same to the people around it. In response U.S. keeps pouring in more and more military and all other kinds of aid to the criminal racist state of Israel. Imagine if Iran (which has continuously been the target of U.S. and Europe economic pressures; such pressures only strengthens the Islamic republic which is detested by the Iranian people), had done a fraction of what Israel has done only in the past few years? It is inconceivable that the U.S. and the rest of international community would have let Iran (and its civilian population) slide the way they have allowed Israel slide. These kinds of double standards are vividly felt in the Middle East. As much as U.S. public would like to ignore such things, U.S. double standards are very vivid and obvious to the rest of the world. U.S. and Israel out of Palestine and hands off Iran! Let Iranians deal with their own government! An old photograph from 1951 shows a huge crowd of Iranians gathered in front of the parliament building with one sign that says leave our nation be! Two years later U.S. and British joined forces to overthrow a democratically elected Iranian government headed by Dr. Mosadegh. This coup was followed by 30 years of Shahs dictatorship. Sanctions and international harassment of Iranian government only strengthens this detested government and suffocates democratic forces in Iran. Stop harassing Iran let the people of Iran take care of their unwanted government. Get out of Palestine and Iraq and Afghanistan. Let the people breath and they will set up more democratic states.