justabloke

Tue, Aug 24, 2010 : 10:15 p.m.

@ghost You always fall one a particular side of each issue, and claim sensitivity to those sides. Did it ever occur to you that choosing your screen name and using 'Goodnight and Good Luck', might be a bit insensitive to those that endured relentless bombing from Nazi Germany night after night. If you are going to make light of peoples positions, please don't make make light of some of us that lost loved ones during WWII.

Speechless

Tue, Aug 24, 2010 : 1:29 p.m.

Another day, another alternative to the stupid idea of drilling for oil along the shores of the Great Lakes: http://www.annarbor.com/business-review/accio-energy-believes-its-wind-energy-device-trumps-wind-turbines-on-political-issues/ We may not get a whole lot of sunlight in Michigan as compared to other places, but this state, with its incredibly abundant lakeshore frontage, does generate a lot of surplus wind, so much that it even dwarfs the bluster blowing out of Lansing and the Mackinac Center. A variety of different types of equipment on our shorelines which harness wind power will do the state and the entire region a whole lot more good than a profusion of oil wells. This expanded technological potential for exploiting renewable wind power complements an entry on this site yesterday that gave a fine example of how to retrofit homes for a future that will be far more energy efficient: http://www.annarbor.com/news/first-leed-certified-student-housing-complex-nears-completion/

Carol

Tue, Aug 24, 2010 : 10:06 a.m.

Oil is only part of the answer. We do need oil, but more importantly we need to incorporate more natural resources such as wind, sun, the moon, etc. into supporting our daily living. We must continue to explore beyond the oil greed or we will most certainly decompose life as we know it as a more developmental enviroment.

Kai Petainen

Tue, Aug 24, 2010 : 7:33 a.m.

ann arbor wasn't the only one to have a petroleum spill. so did belle river. but, handled differently...

sbbuilder

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 4:18 p.m.

Currently, there is a gas company buying up leases in the northwest lower peninsula. They have $15B allocated for this project. They are offering 150/acre for a three year lease, and hope to lease 1M acres. I know this because I was contacted by one of their agents earlier this year, and have gone as far as having a contract drawn up. Haven't signed anything yet, but the whole thing is intrigueing. Evidentally they are pretty sure there is a whomping deposit running generally southwest to northeast on a line from south of Manistee to north of Pellston. Each site will occupy from 1 1/2 acres to 3 acres if a well head is developed. Just thought you guys may want to know.

E. Manuel Goldstein

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 3:25 p.m.

The editors of annarbor.com should ask each of the gubernatorial candidates what their position is on drilling for oil in what is the largest source of fresh water on the planet. My vote for the next Governor of Michigan will be partly based on which candidate is willing to outlaw oil drilling and other corporate exploitation of the lakes. I am also interested in the candidates' stance on hydro-frakking as a technology to draw natural gas from underground. If this dirty, groundwater-polluting technology can be used in Michigan, what are the repercussions? Alternatives to gas and oil will help create more jobs in Michigan in the short and long run. In my opinion, irresponsible big oil and natural gas firms, including Enbridge and BP need to be held accountable for their failures - which are on a grand scale these days, and in most cases, entirely avoidable. Thank goodness we have legislators at the state level, such as Rebekah Warren, who are acting to preserve what is left of our natural resources - water being of chief concern.

Kai Petainen

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 3:19 p.m.

yup. i know the vomit feeling. i stood over the huron river for 2 hours and sucked in the smell of petroleum flowing down the river.

E. Manuel Goldstein

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 3:09 p.m.

Imagine that Enbridge's oil pipeline failure had been over the Huron River instead of the Kalamazoo River. That would most likely change a few peoples' viewpoints here in this community. I was in a train coming home from Chicago on the Monday after the Enbridge oil spill when we passed over the Kalamazoo River and stopped at Marshall, MI. It makes me wonder what amounts of benzene and other carcinogens we were all exposed to on the train. The smell from the crude oil was so potent, I felt like I was going to vomit.

E. Manuel Goldstein

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 3:04 p.m.

My opinion is that is is utterly stupid to drill for oil in the Great Lakes.

Kai Petainen

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 1:23 p.m.

Edward... thanks for update. "aging infrastructure has failures, and aging pipelines have failures characteristic to the industry." BUT.... http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6848 "But Kuprewicz says there is a 95 percent probability the line did not rupture as a result of corrosion, at least based on the initial information available, particularly the location of the rupture. Officials have said the rupture was located at the three oclock position on the 30 inch pipe, and Kuprewicz says corrosion-induced ruptures are almost always at the bottom of the pipe..."

Kai Petainen

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 1:12 p.m.

people only seem to care when big oil spills happen, but when smaller oil spills occur... it seems like no one cares? why the difference? do the smaller ones even matter? i would think so?

Kai Petainen

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 1:08 p.m.

"allow Big Oil to cut corners on projects such as they did in the Gulf of Mexico oil disaster and, more recently, in the Kalamazoo River spill." Do we know that for certain with regard to this spill? As far as I know, the cause is still unknown.

Speechless

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 12:06 p.m.

"... Absent new sources of domestic oil production, I'm wondering what solution you would posit to our growing demand...." To return again to this earlier query, an article posted on this site today points to one good, local example of the kind or construction and rehab practices that needs to become common throughout the country. Sadly, this one set of UM campus apartments is a fairly unique prototype at this time: http://www.annarbor.com/news/first-leed-certified-student-housing-complex-nears-completion/ Replicating 'gold-standard' energy-saving rehab in residential areas, on a mass scale, will represent a big step toward national energy independence. This would have been a much better place to invest that trillion dollars we've spent so far on wars in Asia to protect access to "our" oil. Combined with a major federal shift in priorities toward mass transit and away from further road expansion (as posited above by the late Murrow), greater urban density, fewer commuter miles, wind & solar farms, and the further advancement of various gasoline alternatives, this will help get us away from a foolish temptation to mess with limited oil under the Great Lakes. Leave it alone.

Roger Roth

Mon, Aug 23, 2010 : 7:42 a.m.

Question: If you drive a car or use energy in any way, aren't you being hypocritical when you object to drilling for oil and even more hypocritical when you endorse NIMBY? Observation: As long as there's oil in the earth and money to be made from it, oil corporations earning the money will trump anything else. After the oil is gone--if that will ever happen--this issue will end. The BP disaster had been in the works for a long, long time. BP proved itself to be an irresponsible if not asocial, immoral, unethical player. The government looked the other way. Not to worry, our gov. says the Gulf oil disaster is basically over, so if it happens in the Great Lakes, any disaster will quickly end by government declaration. I doubt we can save ourselves.

Jay Thomas

Sun, Aug 22, 2010 : 5:14 p.m.

If all of the people against drilling for oil would do the right thing and stop using any, we wouldn't need to increase it's production. Thank you!

jcj

Sun, Aug 22, 2010 : 5:07 p.m.

Thanks Scylding You are exactly right. The operative word in my sentence was, like. Right again in that ERMG seldom takes on an issue without sidestepping like a politician. Lets make the operative words here, seldom,without and sidestepping!

Scylding

Sun, Aug 22, 2010 : 4:39 p.m.

@Ghost Why should jcj answer you? When you're in a tight spot, you typically resort to an escape hatch, trotting out some snide remark about Sarah Palin or George Bush. Jcj owes you no better answer. You will notice, if you read jcj's post, however, that jcj wrote: "The term 'tea partyer' is thrown around like it is a dirty word." Notice the word "like" in that sentence? It may mean that jcj objected to the tone in which the word was being used, not necessarily the word itself.

jcj

Sun, Aug 22, 2010 : 1:13 p.m.

ERMG Let me spell it out for you.I am not a tea partiest any more than I am a republican or a democrat. Sarah Palin was not ready to be Vice President or President in my opinion. But then neither was President Obama! I don't agree with everything Sarah Palin says, But I trust her honesty more than President Obama! Glenn Beck I agree with some of what he says but he has turned (just like every other talking head on the tube) into a self promoting salesperson. Does the movement and its members have something to be ashamed of? No more or less than those that get their dailey feeding from the likes of Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann or Al Sharpton or Harry Reid.

jcj

Sun, Aug 22, 2010 : 8:32 a.m.

@ERMG My point was that you don't just drop what you need until you find a better way. So far we haven't found a better way. And the word "better" encompasses more than just different! There are 2-3 commentators on any thread that cannot refrain from injecting political insults into the fray no matter what the topic. If you look at the history of my comments I think you will find that most of my "political" comments were in response to another. So in that regard I vow to try not to take the bait. But I guess we all need to grow up past the 1st grader mentality of name calling and start debating the issues on their merit. The term "tea partyer" is thrown around like it is a dirty word. Even more so than "liberal',conservative,left wing or "right wing"

Bones

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 11:05 p.m.

Drilling in the Great Lakes is a very bad idea. They are already toxic enough from years and years of heavy industry and other pollutants from agricultural run off. And to anyone that advocates the drilling of the lakes. I suggest you find the documentary called Gasland and watch it. It is a real eye opener.

sbbuilder

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 9:03 p.m.

I really don't see renewables making much of a dent overall until a viable solution/replacement of the internal combustion engine is invented. This is by far the most efficient use of energy per unit mass (aside from nuclear) ever devised on this planet. The electric stuff is still a joke. GMs new Volt is already perceived as a gross disappointment. 40 miles before you have to re-charge? So, sure, let's have a look at other means of producing energy. But you have to look at every single device that uses an ICE and figure out a way to replace that. Every car, every truck, every bus, every train, every backup generator, every lawnmower, every, well you get the idea. You can make these more efficient only to a certain extent. Beyond that, the demand will still go up. For the record, I'm a big proponent of nuclear and hydraulic kinetic energy.

Speechless

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 7:32 p.m.

"... Absent new sources of domestic oil production, I'm wondering what solution you would posit to our growing demand...." Less demand. The days of relying on oil are gradually coming to an end. The rapidly developing economies of China and India, especially, will see to it that the long era of inexpensive oil ends soon enough. It won't take that many more years. This country can begin now to finally turn its back on oil reliance, or it can continue to practice denial and leave its head stuck in the tar sands. A sane future energy policy for Michigan and the rest of the country calls for far stronger conservation and efficiency efforts, combined with the steady introduction of wind, solar an other renewable technologies at the regional, local and neighborhood levels. If we should choose to spend a trillion federal dollars on oil-reducing energy retrofits, rather than on foreign wars for oil, that can go a long, long way.... No drilling should be allowed in the Great Lakes, one of the world's best sources of fresh water, for reasons discussed in more detail in these two earlier articles on the proposed state constitutional ban, which recently passed through Rebekah Warren's environment committee in the state House: http://www.annarbor.com/news/constitutional-ban-on-drilling-in-great-lakes-could-come-before-michigan-voters-this-november/ http://www.annarbor.com/news/michigan-drilling-ban-legislation-moves-through-committee-today-in-state-house/

denise1inaa

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 6:14 p.m.

I would prefer NO OIL drilling in the Great Lakes. I was born in Detroit and I feel the RIVERS and Great Lakes should be kept clean. This includes the HURON River, the RIVER RAISIN, and the RIVER ROUGES. I am just a FRENCHIE girl who LOVES her environment.

Rasputin

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 6:06 p.m.

@ Edward R Murrow's Ghost, I stand corrected. I assumed WRONG that it was our oil, but it is their PIPELINE and they (the Canadians) are responsible to clean it up and cover costs.

sbbuilder

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 5:10 p.m.

I would love to see a hydro-kinetic system developed in the Staits of Mackinaw. Free flow river and open water based systems are currently being used in about 20 states. We have by far the largest non-river based flow in the straits. That would give us a dedicated non fluctuating source of power that is totally clean. There have been numerous studies done to look at how these systems affect marine life, and so far the impact is about zero. The Europeans are installing the world's largest open water system in Scandinavia. I hope we can get on board this technology in a big way. Luis Haven't seen a single poster refer to 'big labor', so am not sure why you insist on using the 'name calling' moniker. Ghost Gotta watch the fanciful rhetoric. Christian Taliban? Now that is going way, way too far. And, how does this further the discussion on drilling/not drilling in the Great Lakes? Absent new sources of domestic oil production, I'm wondering what solution you would posit to our growing demand. Hint: This isn't London, there aren't bombs falling all around, and it is the middle of the day. Mr Murrow didn't use that sign-off for the rest of his career, as you are wont.

Veracity

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 3:53 p.m.

DonBee: I agree with your position that oil under the Great Lakes should be accessed by land-based directional drilling. The technology is in use now elsewhere. I suggest also that readers contact Senators Levin and Stabenow and Representative Dingle to encourage that stimulus money be used to create a network of natural gas refueling stations. Think of all the new jobs that will create! Also needed are incentives targeted to encourage converting gasoline-powered vehicles to CNG-powered vehicles and to encourage purchasing new CNG-powered cars and trucks. For many CNG-powered vehicles, natural gas will cost less. Furthermore, all the natural gas used can be produced here in America, reducing our dependency on foreign oil and reducing the trade deficit. And the environment will benefit from the 30% less CO2 emissions from natural gas compared to gasoline. Hey! A win-win situation, do you think?

Top Cat

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 3:44 p.m.

By some of these posts, it sounds like the Left is getting a bit testy as they march to the political slaughter house of November 2. Hope it was fun while it lasted. And wake up, we need the oil, we need the gas and we need the jobs here.

DonBee

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 2:33 p.m.

I have no problem with setting up rigs on land, away from the shore and conducting directional drilling. The rigs should follow all the rules and regulations, including environmental impact statements. I have a big problem with setting up platforms out in the lakes to drill. There is no need to setup rigs out on the water, given the technology that exists today. Until we can convert to a different form of energy, drilling here with our rules has less global damage than letting people in under developed countries drill there. They have few or no rules and so the end result is what you can find in the Niger Delta. As to how Rick Snyder will or will not create jobs, he has not been specific on mineral resources in the state. Telling people what he will or will not do is spreading untruths. As to resource jobs being unsustainable jobs, there are limestone quarries that have been in operation in some parts of the world for hundreds of years. With good forest management those jobs could last forever. Putting all resource jobs off limits is silly. We need to, as a state make decisions on what we will do to help our economy recover. Putting whole sectors off limits as a way to create jobs, is unrealistic and irrational. Michigan needs a jobs policy and that needs to dovetail with a resource policy. I am not in favor of "drill baby drill" but I am also not in favor of "all resource jobs are evil". Somewhere there needs to be a middle ground that is good for the environment and provides sustainable jobs for the citizens of Michigan.

Scylding

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 1:58 p.m.

As if the "Palin" crutch makes for an effective argument.

Scylding

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 12:27 p.m.

@Ghost: If "Big Oil's" Canadian extraction techniques (used in the tar sands) make normal drilling processes look "pristine", as you say, then you just made a strong case for drilling in the Great Lakes and everywhere else it can be done less expensively. Extracting oil from the sands, and for that matter deep water drilling, is an expensive process. Once oil gets below a certain price point, those techniques are not viable and the processes involved in them grind to a halt. That's why you see the deep water drilling stocks bounce like a super-ball according to the price of oil. So what are you really saying, Ghost? "Drill baby drill"? When it comes down to it, people denying more accessible drilling make dangerous drilling more prevalent. It's much easier to cap a well at the surface than at the bottom of the gulf. Logic and the supply/demand dynamic: they can be so inconvenient for certain viewpoints, like those at odds with themselves.

Rasputin

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 11:31 a.m.

In addition to what sbbuilder said, it was a Canadian owned pipeline that burst and shed its contents into the river. Funny, we take their trash and they take our oil. Wow, NAFTA: Good for me and you!!!

Rasputin

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 11:28 a.m.

If Rick Snyder becomes the next Governor of Michigan, we all know that our Great Lakes and the U.P. will be opened up to drilling and strip mining in the name of his 'Jobs' initiatives. Not sustainable jobs, mind you, but the same old short sighted manufacturing jobs that will lay waste to our environment. Mark my words, you heard it here first.

jcj

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 11:16 a.m.

We need to regulate and make accountable companies that cause harm to the environment whether by accident or design. But youdon't close all the roads because 80% of the drivers speed! What if we had forced Ford to shut down after their big accident? The Edsel What if we had stopped GM from producing cars after their major accidents? The Corvair and the Vega. Maybe we should stop having elections after the big mistake of electing Obama? ERMG was the one that injected his messiah into this!

sbbuilder

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 10:36 a.m.

Lynus Sorry to pop your bubble, but the Kalamazoo spill had nothing to do with drilling in the Lakes. A burst pipeline on land was the cause. Now, are you advocating the removal of all piplines as well? Every now and then a truck, or train carrying some toxic substance crashes and stuff is spilled. Are you advocating the cessation of all transportation of toxic substances. Please think through your argument for a moment before going off tangentially on a proposed solution. Ghost, why not chill a bit. Nobody was attacking the holy one on this thread, so no defense is necessary. Marvin: good point. By definition, you've got to have very deep pockets indeed in order to execute oil exploration and production. I can't recall any mom and pop establishments selling their petroleum products. Can't recall any pharma products either. Duane capped it all by pointing out the obvious. Big government is OK, isn't it? How about we find a lasting solution to the Zebra Mussel instead? That one threat alone is wreaking havoc with the Great Lakes ecosystem. The Asian Carp is also an imminent threat.

stunhsif

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 10:13 a.m.

@ghost, Keep to the talking points here, no one was talking about your president. Lynus has motivated me to contact Mike Bishop and Andy Dillon to let them know I fully support drilling for oil in the great lakes and will vote this fall for those that do.

Soothslayer

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 10:07 a.m.

gee another "Not in my back yard!" Just where should they get it from then? I want them to get all of it from everywhere they can find it so we can use it up asap. Then we can finally get on with more sustainable/responsible energy sources already. We're spoiled with abundant & cheap energy, especially in the US. The 1900s-2000s we'll be known as the most wasteful and selfish energy use era of all time. We had access to more fossil energy and used it to do what of great future importance or lasting value? Absolutely nothing.

Duane Collicott

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 9:17 a.m.

The left is against everything that can have the word "Big" put in front of it except for the most dangerous one: big government.

Rod Johnson

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 9:01 a.m.

"Big Oil" is just demagoguery. You want to atop drilling, great, say that. Let's have a debate about policy without jacking up the hysteria with phrases designed to push people's buttons (see "Ground Zero Mosque").

MjC

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 8:31 a.m.

Be careful what you wish for SonnyDog09. Back on topic, I'm not a fan of Mike Bishop, but I'll send a letter supporting a ban on drilling in our beautiful great lakes. Thanks for the information. I miss the $4/gallon gas days when the U.S. was on a fast track to solving our dependency on oil. It came to a crashing halt when prices came back down again.

SonnyDog09

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 7:59 a.m.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!!!

Marvin Face

Sat, Aug 21, 2010 : 7:12 a.m.

Big Oil is not allowed but Small Oil can drill all they want?