Pioneer High students say they were sent home from school over book fines
Ellisha Champine said she was sent home from Pioneer for unpaid book fines.
Angela Cesere | AnnArbor.com
When Ellisha Champine set out for the first day at Pioneer High School on Sept. 6, she didn’t think her day would last just 20 minutes.
But the high school junior said she didn’t make it past registration before she was told to leave school until she paid a $35 book fine, money she said she wouldn’t have until her father was paid at the end of the week.
Ellisha said she was referred to Principal Michael White when she tried to register and pick up her books on the first day of school.
When she explained her story to White, Ellisha said, he told her to go home until she paid her fine for the two books she had lost, including “The Grapes of Wrath.”
She left, taking the AATA bus to her home at Hikone public housing.
White has said he did not send students home from school for outstanding “obligations,” the district’s term for unpaid fines on unreturned books, equipment, calculators and more, said Liz Margolis, director of communications for the district.
She said there will be further investigation of what unfolded, and that it is not acceptable and not district policy to send students with unpaid fines home.
“We would need to work with a student and not turn them away,” she said. “We’re still looking into it.”
Ellisha wasn’t the only Pioneer student sent home on the first day because of unpaid fines, said Joan F. Doughty, executive director of Community Action Network, a nonprofit that operates a community center at Hikone.
Doughty said when she went to pay Ellisha’s fine later that day, Pioneer staff told her about 10 students were sent home on the first day because of outstanding obligations.
“Of course it happened,” Doughty said. “The clerk held up a packet with sheets of paper to show me how many kids had been sent home that morning.”
Derrick Miller, director of the Bryant Community Center, also part of CAN, said one of the low-income students his center serves was sent home twice from Pioneer on the first day of school - once to have his mother sign registration papers and the second time because of an outstanding $80 book fine.
The family does not have the resources to pay the fine, he added. When the student returned to school the next day, he was not stopped, even though he had not paid the fine, Miller said.
According to Pioneer High School’s website, obligations for books and other items “must be cleared before students can complete registration.”
But there should be some allowances for low-income students who can’t afford to pay the fines, Doughty said
“Even if it wasn’t a low-income student, if it was a regular forgetful teenager, I’d be outraged,” Doughty said. “I never dreamed that would deny a child their education based on a book fee. This is ludicrous.”
Paying a book fine can become impossible for poor families, she said.
“The punishment should not be withholding education. Education is supposed to be the ticket out of being poor. It’s so short sighted. It’s mean,” Doughty said.
Doughty found out that Ellisha had been sent home from school when another CAN employee noticed her post on Facebook. Ellisha said she went home, went to her room and wrote on Facebook as a way to reach out to friends who may be wondering what happened to her.
While Ellisha said she knew she had lost the books - one two years ago and one last year - she said she didn’t know she couldn’t register. In fact, she said, she was able to register at beginning of 10th grade with an outstanding fine for the other book, “Romeo and Juliet.”
It could be handled in other ways, from establishing a payment plan to working the fine off through community service, Doughty said.
It was hard missing the first day, Ellisha said. She’d looked forward to seeing old friends and meeting her new teachers. In some classes, she missed getting a seat assignment. In others, it took a couple days to feel integrated.
Her mother, Sandra Pennington, said she was surprised to see Ellisha come come so early from school.
“I didn’t think they could send you home over a fine without notice,” she said.
It’s ironic, Doughty said, that Ellisha’s fine was for “Grapes of Wrath,” John Steinbeck’s classic novel about the plight of the poor.
“It’s all about poverty and how poor people are screwed over and over and just can’t get ahead,” Doughty said.
Comments
Darwinia
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:14 p.m.
After my recent experience with an overdue notice from my daughter's school, I absolutely refuse to pay for any book til the book room or library is physically checked and I receive 100% proof the error is not on their end. My phone calls and emails were not returned as to why we didn't receive notice about a book from winter until July. The entire house was searched repeatedly while I waited. I finally had to go in person and keep waiting for the book room person to check and check again, as it was not recorded as returned due to the length of the class. My daughter learned her lesson about lost books in elementary school. She learned this time to always get a receipt. How many students were sent home for lost books that were sitting on Pioneer's shelves not properly checked in? Its great that the housing also includes internet. That should be possible everywhere as more jobs require internet access. Comcast recently began offering low cost internet <a href="http://www.wlns.com/story/15496411/comcast-offers-low-cost-internet-to-needy-families" rel='nofollow'>http://www.wlns.com/story/15496411/comcast-offers-low-cost-internet-to-needy-families</a>
Darwinia
Wed, Sep 21, 2011 : 4:53 a.m.
Ann wrote "Asking them to take an hour out of their day to "check and check again" for ONE book is beyond a waste of time. Don't sit back and whine because your kid lost a book. " My kid did not lose the book. It was returned at the end of the class. For whatever reason, the "system for that" failed and it was not recorded properly. What is a waste is making parents pay up or their kids won't be in school, and maybe 6 or 8 months later there will be a refund sent home. Eighty dollars is a lot to pay when, in our situation, it was the school that was in error. It took about 10 minutes for the person to check the system and then check again according to when the class ended for it to be found in the computer system. The attitude that its schools against the parents and kids, and the schools can do no wrong are how things like whatever else happened at Pioneer. There are any number of possibilities that can and do happen, but when its not at home and the kid can say in detail who it was returned to and when; then sometime the school can indeed be in error.
Ann
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.
This is so stupid I don't even know where to begin. What do you think the people at Pioneer do? Sit around all day and twiddle their thumbs? Books don't just miraculously disappear and sit on shelves without being checked in. There's a system for that. There are probably upwards of 100,000 books at Pioneer. Do you really think they don't have a system for that? There's millions of dollars worth of books there. They aren't just sitting around freely. If you really want to go check through every single one of them - even though there's a system for catching if they're already out or not - then by all means, go ahead. But don't blame the people who work all day to provide books for every single kid. Asking them to take an hour out of their day to "check and check again" for ONE book is beyond a waste of time. Don't sit back and whine because your kid lost a book. It's amazing the general BUT MY KID CAN DO NO WRONG attitude so many parents have. How naive can you be? Maybe your kid sat next to his buddy or a really cute girl and lent them his book, maybe they switched books and the other kid lost it, maybe he picked up the wrong book. There are tons of possibilities about how a book can be lost - don't resort to blaming the people at the school. Maybe it's nobodies fault - maybe it just got switched. This attitude that the people who tirelessly work for your daughter and the rest of the kids in the school system are to blame is ridiculous. Has it ever crossed your mind that it's totally reasonable that ONE book might get lost in the shuffle of tens of thousands of books at a giant public school? Probably not, it's just easier to blame one person and not accept that maybe there's an innocent, unrelated reason the book isn't there.
a2chrisp
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:38 p.m.
Wow...frankly I am stunned. You would think people have better things to do than tear down a teenager. Whatever your thoughts on responsibility are, she is not an adult and should not be subjected to these comments. I certainly hope she didn't read the comments section. In addition, whether you like it or not, attending public school is a right, not a privilege. Its not a job, or college, so the comparisons are asinine. You cannot withhold education for missing books. That's not a debatable point. You can't. Ms. Doughty was bringing this point to light, in her own fiery way, admittedly. But the reason why Mr. White denied that he sent the child home is because it's not legal. Really, every other point on the subject, particularly the circumstances of the child, her parents, Ms. Doughty, personal responsibility etc. are all completely missing the point. And as to Mr. Brogsdorf. He is compeltely 100% correct. AA.com should stop letting people comment anonymously. It unfortunately too often reveals the dark side of humanity. Reading the comments section is like staring at a horrific car crash. However, until aa.com changes its policies, you can't expect anybody to reveal their identities, it creates an uneven playing field.
A2centsworth
Sun, Sep 25, 2011 : 7:52 a.m.
I would not comment on here if I had to reveal my name because of the "nut factor". The nut factor shows that a certain percentage of the population are crazy nuts, and there is a good chance that if they disagree with another persons comments, and can type in their name on Google and find their phone number and address, they will make contact to argue with them. The liability to AA.com would be astronomical. I would never put myself at risk like that, and I carry a gun! Anonymous is fine with me, I do not have to know your name in order to agree or disagree with your comments.
a2chrisp
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 4:12 p.m.
@ charlie brown's ghost. You might want to read more carefully next time. "However, until aa.com changes its policies, you can't expect anybody to reveal their identities, it creates an uneven playing field." Perhaps the reason why people have such a problem with this article is because they didn't take the time to actually read it.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:09 p.m.
"He is compeltely 100% correct. AA.com should stop letting people comment anonymously. " So, "a2chrisp" is your real name, then?
15crown00
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:51 p.m.
maybe you better stop being so politically correct.
cette
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 11:30 a.m.
The heart of the matter is the principal capriciously denied FAPE. How often does this guy do this?Good for Margolis for not covering his you know what.That's a big deal in a school system with an achievement gap, and a less than 80% graduation rate for special education students. Is it any coincidence the most common profile of child expelled is a 9th grade african american boy? When Principal White decides to discipline, first it needs to be within legal parameters, second, it needs to be recorded, for all to see, and third, suspensions and expulsions need to be recorded and intervention, with positive reinforcers, carrots not sticks need to be employed.
Mick
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 11:01 a.m.
I can certainly see both sides of the story and I know that money is tighter at AAPS, but I think things need to change a little at Pioneer. At registration, it was chaotic with lines to stations that must be completed in sequence. The lines were so long and it was so crowded you couldn't tell that the lines joined together. When we finally got to the room to drop off our completed forms, Mr. White announced that there wasn't time to ask any questions just drop off your forms and keep moving. We called that afternoon to ask a question about the registration form we had dropped off, but never received a call back. Finally, someone in the athletics office was able to answer our question. I can understand how the students might feel they're only a number in the system and that no one is able to work with them when they do have a problem. I would be very interested to see how many students were denied registration for book fines at Skyline, Huron and Community.
Jack Gladney
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 4:44 a.m.
The dog ate my book.
david st. crystal
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 4:29 a.m.
It's good the A2 News is printing this story. Not because it brings to light the "book fine" crisis, but because it shows the casualness with which White administers punishment at Pioneer, and how the punishment is frequently bizarre and/or illegal. I tutored a Pioneer student during the last couple years, and this student would sometimes casually comment on White's discipline practices and policies, or daily handling of student conflicts. From this student and others I heard stories of White intimidating students, screaming at them, and kicking them out of class and school with a perverse frequency. This is all an extension of "homework sweeps," in which students with unfinished homework are removed from class every morning to go complete it. The fact that these punishments all involve removing a student from the classroom--where teachers should have the autonomy to handle homework issues and tardy policies--seems to be lost on White. Should kids be responsible with their books? Absolutely, but lets be serious. If you or your child never lost a book, congratulations. For the rest of us, we sometimes had library or book fines, and/or committed even greater transgressions. The idea that a book fine could be cause for temporary expulsion/suspension is horrific.
david st. crystal
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 5:07 p.m.
Tardiness and homework should come under jurisdiction of the individual teachers. It's not White's expectations that are flawed, but the nature of the punishment, which removes kids from the learning environment. I'd have no problem with forcing kids with outstanding homework to attend an after-school study hall, or come in early.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 11:38 a.m.
Wait... They're expected to complete their homework? OK, this has to stop now. This principal is out of control. What craziness will be next? Will he do something else irrational like insist that students get to class on time?
Sparty
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 4:09 a.m.
It's a very good thing none of these children were injured or assaulted after having been sent home to what may have been unsupervised situations. AAPS has opened themselves up to tremendous liability by their actions in creating potentially unsafe situations for minors. Legal nightmare!
Kai Petainen
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 4:02 a.m.
why doesn't the library do this? create a 1 week time horizon for forgiveness. during some week (in april?), give a grace period of one week... whereby anyone can return any overdue books for no charge and no questions asked?
Kai Petainen
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 8:55 p.m.
Mom... good point.
Barb's Mom
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:39 p.m.
The article does not say they are Library books. They are most likely her class books. The Grapes of Wrath, would most likely been an English book that was given out when the class read the book. 30 books per class 4 to 5 classes a day. Is 120 to 150 books. If the school has to replace that many books a year for just 1 class. That is expensive.
keith_urbanFan93
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 2:29 a.m.
local 4 also did an article about this. <a href="http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/29235226/detail.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/29235226/detail.html</a> the girl realizes that she was responsible for the books and she has learned a valuable lesson. as for the principal i believe he was out of line, students should not be sent home due to unpaid obligations.
A2centsworth
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:35 a.m.
We do not know the facts. The school has not commented. Consider that Doughty perhaps encouraged this girl to do the article as it seems to justify her attempt at blaming the school, society and whoever else she can name for the plight of the poor. Her statements are quite agressive. Ellisha said nothing in the article to insinuate she was angry, antagonistic or defying any rules. We only have Doughty's word for the statement "10 students were sent home". The reporter did not do her homework, to authenticate the information. Doughty obviously has an axe to grind, and Ellisha, seemed to be caught in the middle, probably caught off guard by the media attention. I question Doughty's intention and ethics. This is not about sending kids home who didnt pay a book fine, we do not have the facts in this article to support that. It is not about the poor's inability to pay, as we do not know what arrangements the school has made with Ellisha and her family. It is about a self-serving woman (Doughty) seeking press for herself at the cost of this underage child. Sure the kid is responsible for unreturned books, but I am certain she would not have spoken to the press without encouragement from, you guessed it.. Doughty, who runs a center at the housing development Ellisha lives in. Let's not focus on the child, but the adult who put her in the firing line. Seems paying the fine for Ellisha guarenteed Doughty some unjustified press. Let's face it Ellisha and her mother say very little in the article. The spotlight is on Ms. Doughty. I feel for Ellisha, she must be so horrified by all this attention regarding a situation she probably never gave a second thought to. The article does not mention if and how the situation has been resolved. School has been in session for over two weeks now. What was the conclusion to this situation? Sensationalized reporting at the expense of an underage child. I am nauseated!
Doug
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:46 p.m.
Follow the school rules and you won't have this problem.
thinker
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:33 p.m.
Let her get used to the real world. If all library fines are not paid by the end of the school year, my college daughter cannot get her grades. High school should be a preparation for college.
dutch
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:24 p.m.
Although most commenters have focused on the child, Ellisha, I would like to focus on the adult. According to the story, Ellisha offered to pay for the books on Friday when her father got paid. Apparently, this was not good enough for Mr White and she was expelled. According to Ms Margolis, this is not consistent with district policy. So, what is the punishment for Mr White? Could he not have picked up the phone and called another adult, a parent, and discussed the situation? Is expelling a child for loosing two paperback novels even legal? Did anyone bother to tell this struggling family that they could buy used copies of the books for significantly less than $35 and turn them in. All of my three children have lost books. This is not abnormal for teenagers. I am appalled that Mr White, an adult and supposedly educator, would treat a child this way. Why aren't there ever articles in the paper about the principals of Huron or Skyline? How do they handle this situation?
48104
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:11 a.m.
One of the books had been lost two years prior. Perhaps Friday had been the promise all through last year as well.
a2citizen
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:16 p.m.
I learned to return library books or suffer the consequences in the fourth grade. And that was in Detroit!!!
Fat Bill
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 9:52 p.m.
If principals do nothing more than mechanically enforce the various rules and policies with no room for interpretation or discretion, why are we paying them so bloody much? A computer can to that, without having to pay for retirement or bennies. There is a reason we have people in these positions, so that issues like this can be addressed in a more common-sense fashion. We have here a low-income student who WANTS to attend school... think of the money some places have invested just to get kids to this point...
Sparty
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 9:28 p.m.
Absent a quick resolution it looks like a class action lawsuit is likely, with ACLU involvement. There was no hearing involving the parents who are the only responsible parties for debts of minors, multiple children were denied education and sent home (possibly to an unsupervised situation), and certainly there are special protections for those deemed financially indigent. Although the comments about responsibility are interesting, although very elitist, the children are minors and it is the parents that are ultimately responsible and we don't yet know their level of knowledge in each of these cases. The principle made a horrible decision, one that could ultimately carry a heavy price.
DonBee
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:56 p.m.
This story seems to show that no one is in the "right" here. Ms Champine missed 4 possible registration days prior to the start of school Ms Champine also missed working out a payment plan with the school Ms Doughty missed giving Ms Champine an object lesson in responsibility, and instead let her skate (even if Ms Champine should not have been sent home). Pioneer missed on their use of Positive Behavior in how they dealt with the book fines Mr. White missed on making an honest assessment of what happened AAPS overall mishandled the PR The Superintendent was of course missing from the whole situation So the story shows the people involved as 0-7. I hope people will use this story to improve how things are handled. OBTW - In my opinion, there should have been a better way for Pioneer to handle the initial issue of sending Ms. Champine home, but Ms Champine and her family missed their opportunity to clear this up prior to the start of the school year by registering on time.
Basic Bob
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:32 a.m.
The superintendent does not get involved in transportation OR textbook issues, nor does she feel compelled to address the community in any manner. Is that a problem?
John Spalding
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.
Here's my problem with the situation. Yes, the girl lost the books. It was her fault, she should take responsibility and eventually pay for those books. However is the punishment of kicking her out of school until she can pay for it really necessary? I graduated from Pioneer, there were times that I registered for school and I had fines I needed to pay. They didn't kick me out until I pay for them. Eventually she will have to pay for the books, you cannot get your diploma with unpaid fee's. So eventually she'll have to to pay for the books, I don't think kicking the girl out of school is the answer. She is at Pioneer for an education, this is some boot camp for kids, which I think Mr. White confuses Pioneer High School to be.
hattrix
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:33 p.m.
There was an article on annarbor.com in July about Roberto Clemente HS where one of the administrators was quoted as saying, "We tell our students, 'if you come out of uniform, you don't come to class,'" said Barbara Malcolm, community liaison at Clemente. "If you tried to go to work at McDonald's or as a postal worker and you didn't wear your uniform, what would happen? We try to hold them to the same standards here." This seems like a similar situation to owing money for lost books. If you reported to work on your first day without the proper paperwork filled out or the ID necessary to fill out hiring forms, you would not be able to start a job. I disagree with sending students home from school for things like this, but students should be accountable for their obligations. I'm sure there are other options that would have held this student accountable for her obligation while allowing her to be in class.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:36 a.m.
"If you reported to work on your first day without the proper paperwork filled out or the ID necessary to fill out hiring forms, you would not be able to start a job" I think illegal aliens (oh, excuse me, I mean, "undocumented Democrats") would disagree.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:26 p.m.
To all of her who have been so critical of this young woman and her family: Have you never lost a library book, parked overtime at a meter or forgot to pay a bill? She has not committed any criminal act or even a status violation (illegal for minors but not adults). How many of you have double parked or blocked a driveway while you ran inside for just a minute? Anyone ever discover that when you bought something you were given extra change? Did you pay it back? How irresponsible! We all do these little "irresponsible" things multitudes of times in our lives. All this self righteousness. Get over it.
Donttasemebro
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:06 p.m.
That's right, teach them that if your poor, you don't have to follow the rules or be responsible! The working people are paying her section 8 so she can live at Hikone, probably paying for her bus pass to get to school. Why get an education and then a job when others will do it for you.
Joe Kidd
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 3:13 a.m.
Your comment is cruel and inappropriate. She said she can pay the fine when her Dad gets paid. There is nothing here to support your opinion in re to her family's financial situation.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:28 p.m.
The article says her father works. Ever hear of the "working poor?"
Megarz
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:20 p.m.
Yes, you are quite right -- poor and impoverished children have it so easy. ... oh, wait.
engGEEK1988
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:02 p.m.
Very, very sad! Poor people should be exempt from all rules and laws, so they don't get screwed anymore and they can get ahead.
Rose Garden
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 5:47 p.m.
Are you being sarcastic? "Poor people should be ex empt from all rules and laws"? I am assuming you mean this to be sarcastic and you don't really mean it literally.
Roadman
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:29 p.m.
It is sad. If an indigent family cannot afford the costs, does the child say out of school indefinitely?
Momma G
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 7:49 p.m.
As much as I agree that she shouldn't have been sent home, it's about time that these students learn how to be responsible. Notices are sent out often about the obligations that are due before the end of the year and probably during the summer, too. Again, the district really needs to do "parenting" classes so that their students achieve in school and become "responsible" citizens. Quit blaming the staff for your student's discipline at school or underachievements.
Dave
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 7:08 p.m.
I'm surprised by the lack of sympathy and/or empathy reflected in the comments here... Certainly, the student should be held accountable for the fines/damages, but to effectively hold her from classes? That's a bit ridiculous. Why not simply keep the fine on record, and if she doesn't pay down the road, withhold her the diploma come graduation? At least that way it wouldn't interrupt the students education, and the district could retain leverage to procure the fees owed.
aamom
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:42 p.m.
Why kick the punishment down the road? I'm guessing her family won't be any more able to pay in 2 years if they haven't been able to pay for the last 2 years. And I think the uproar would be just the same if they withheld her diploma. Something like, "She can't make anything of herself without her diploma. How can they keep it from her?" Whatever the resolution needs to be, deal with it now.
Gorc
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:55 p.m.
She was sent home on the first day of school...what could she have possible missed...the handing out of syllabi.
dogpaddle
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 6:14 p.m.
I apologize now if what I have to say is a repeat of other comments, but honestly, I have not read all of the nearly 200 comments. But as a former high school teacher, let me say that while I am all for teaching these young adults responsibility and holding them accountable for each and every action or lack of; we as a community need to keep in mind that not all of our students come to us equally prepared. I'm not even sure I have a good remedy, but it really isn't fair that middle and high income students can just bring a check (keep in mind many low income families don't even have a bank account/checking account) from home to clear up their losing or damaging their books (which multiplied by thousands and over time does add up as a cost to the school districts and to us the public tax paying citizens). I think it's a "crock" this young lady and others were sent home on any day but especially the first day. We're setting them up for failure and being behind on day one. If we want our youth educated and moving forward, why hold some back because they need to learn responsibility just like "rich" kids? Figure out some other way to have them pay their fines. Do it in increments. Help the custodians after school. Or clean up the cafeteria after lunch. Something that teaches responsibility. But DON'T keep them out of school.
julieswhimsies
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 6:13 p.m.
This cannot be the entire story here. Something is not right. What's missing? You tell me A2.com.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 6:07 p.m.
The more I read this article, the clearer it becomes to me, that this is not about Ellisha, it is about Ms Doughty of the Community Action Network who is using this childs' situation for her own publicity and gain. It is unlikely Ellisha or her family brought it to the press. Look at their comments, they are benign. They are not pointing fingers. But look at Doughty's comments, she is accusatory and taking an agressive stance. Personal responsibility is important and something we all need to be aware of. I think it was the mothers' responsibility not to allow her underage child be photographed for the newspaper, I think it was a lack of personal responsibility of the reporter to omit all the fact, and the lack of responsibility of Ms. Doughty in her shameful use of a minor child to get herself some press. Yes, Ellisha should have handed in her books, and yes, she will be held responsible in some way by the school to make up for the loss, but it is clear to me she has been a pawn to Doughty who used her knowledge of this situation to abuse this child. I apologize to you Ellisha for putting this all on you, I think you were led by Ms. Doughty and she should be held accountable for her role in putting you in the line of fire.
Joe Kidd
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 3:10 a.m.
I would say Ms Doughty is doing her job.
A2centsworth
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:11 a.m.
I think we should consider that Doughty perhaps encouraged this girl to do the article as it seems to justify her attempt at blaming the school, society and whoever else she can name for the plight of the poor. This girl said nothing in the article to insinuate she was angry, antagonistic or defying any rules. We only have Doughty's word for the comment regarding "10 students were sent home". The reporter did not do her homework, Doughty obviously has an axe to grind, and Ellisha, seemed to be caught in the middle, probably believed she was doing some good with the article, but I question Doughty's intention and ethics. This is not about sending kids home who didnt pay a book fine, we do not have the facts in this article to support that. It is not about the poor's inability to pay, it is about a mean, nasty woman (Doughty) seeking press for herself at the cost of this minor child. Sure the kid is responsible for unreturned books, but I am sure she would not have spoken to the press without encouragement from, you guessed it.. Doughty who runs a center at the housing development the child lives in.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 7:33 p.m.
No, this is about being sent out of school for not paying a school fine, which is a bad executive decision by the school's administration.
KeepingItReal
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 7:07 p.m.
You're right. This is Doughty's MO. Doughty has found her liberal calling and is using it to whatever advantage she can to garner publicity for her group. Talk to some of the tenants her organizatation serve and you will get a complete picture of her motivation.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 6:21 p.m.
" It is unlikely Ellisha or her family brought it to the press." I looked at the picture carefully and didn't see anybody holding a gun to her, making her pose. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Ricardo Queso
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:16 p.m.
Because budgets are so tight it is plausible that a student may be denied the use of a textbook that another has lost. My kids have lost books. We turned the house over and guess what? We found the books. If treated with value, books will be found and not thrown away.
Mick52
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:03 p.m.
Finally we find out what we get for a $250,000/year superintendent! What a novel, creative, unique new idea on how to run a school that only a person worth a quarter of a million a year could come up with. "She said there will be further investigation of what unfolded, and that it is not acceptable and not district policy to send students with unpaid fines home." Okay this happened on Sept 6. Today is Sept 19. What is taking so long to investigate this? I think it should take all of about 15 minutes to find out who sent Ellisha home and why and composing and addressing a letter of apology to be sent to her and her parents. I suppose the district is doing a search to find an outside agency that can conduct that investigation. The Grapes of Wrath goes for ten bucks on Amazon. $5.98 for a used copy which I bet this was. What was the other book? Is $35 a valid fine for these two books? This child should not have been sent home for this. The school could simply have picked up the phone and called a parent if the $35 is about to break the school financially.
John Spalding
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 9:06 p.m.
Right!
Roadman
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:43 p.m.
I have grave doubt whether a student can be denied access to education based upon the bare assertion of an alleged debt owed the school district. Michigan law requires that that every child be afforded an education - I do not believe that a public school system can simply claim a debt and condition access to classes on payment of that putative debt. Secondly, the child is not able to legally sue or be sued and it is the parent or legal guardian who technically, at least, has power over the child's care and monies, if any. What if the debt is disputed? No hearing before barring the student? What if the student or his family is indigent? This is something that the ACLU should look at. There may be a violation of the constitutional guarantees under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment by the school district. There is a long line of U.S. Supreme Court precedent that rights in property cannot be taken away without prior notice and an opprtunity to be heard. There appear here to be no enunciated rules of exclusion to warn the student nor any oppotunity for student to dispute the debt at a meaningful hearing. There are also constitutional guarantees that protect indigents that have been recognized in various contexts by the High Court. I personally find the conduct of the school district appalling, even if deemed legal by a court of law.
Ricardo Queso
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:42 p.m.
Where is the Community Activist for my neighborhood? Oops my bad, he is in D.C.
djm12652
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:37 p.m.
I'm sorry, I don't get it. I understand that there are many of us out there that struggle to make ends meet, whether through a job or assistance. But...that being said. When times were tough for me, I canceled my cable and internet service for 6 months to get back on track. One month of cable/internet service would have covered the costs of the fines...it's all about priorities and I'm not sure where the young lady's are.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:15 p.m.
I'm sure this young lady doesn't have control over whether or not her family has cable.
djm12652
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:53 p.m.
@CBghost....then you haven't driven past any of the tailgating say along 7th...it's blatant. I personally enjoy driving past the school and big house on Sunday mornings to see the plethora of colored 16 oz cups lying in the street, sidewalks...and how would the "game attendees" play their beer pong games without beer?
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:45 p.m.
Last I heard drinking wasn't allowed any more at football parking, maybe not even smoking (I think I heard that was the big attraction of the country club parking now). It was a big deal when they implemented the no alcohol rule a couple years ago, and some people said nobody would ever park there again, but that didn't exactly come true.
djm12652
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:40 p.m.
The flip side of this discussion is why should she follow the rules, when the High School allows people to pay to park and consume alcohol and smoke on school property? If PiHi doesn't have to play by the rules, why should anyone else?
Megarz
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.
It really upsets me to read so many unfeeling comments. I feel terrible for this young girl who was not only sent home from school for not being able to pay for some books she lost (which is completely normal behavior for a high schooler), but is now being publicly criticized for being irresponsible. I'm not excusing her behavior or saying that there should not be consequences for her actions, but it can be very difficult for children living in impoverished households. The stress, anxiety, embarrassment and insecurity take its toll throughout their entire adolescence. If this girl is witnessing her parents stressing about paying bills or affording groceries, a $35 book fine was probably the last thing she wanted to worry about. I'm not trying to make assumptions, but these things should at least graze people's minds before they start typing up mean comments suggesting that this girl got what she deserved.
Megarz
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 6:43 p.m.
EyeHeartA2: From what I can tell she complained on Facebook and then agreed to be interviewed for annarbor.com - who probably heard this story through the director of CAN, also interviewed in this story. I believe they were well intentioned, trying to bring awareness to the treatment of low-income and impoverished students in our schools, but I believe they have officially done more harm then good for this particular student -- especially given the tone of the comments received.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 6:19 p.m.
There are two reasons she is being publically critized for being irresponsible: 1. She was irresponsible 2. She made it public Her choices. Now she gets to live with the consiquences.
Megarz
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:26 p.m.
djm12652: the public housing community she lives in provides free internet access. John of Saline: I am in no way saying that there shouldn't be consequences, whether or not I think this is normal behavior. However, I strongly disagree with the judgment coming from those who do not have all the facts.
John of Saline
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:05 p.m.
"not being able to pay for some books she lost (which is completely normal behavior for a high schooler)" I don't recall losing a book throughout school. I remember it being a very rare event amongst who I knew. We watched our stuff.
djm12652
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:56 p.m.
yet the household has a computer and internet connectivity? impoverished maybe, irresponsible parenting as well as the student's irresponsibility is evident. Oh wait, it's Ann Arbor, where entitlement rules...
kmw
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:32 p.m.
I'm sorry but I can not have much sympathy for this young girl. My son had an outstanding fine of $2.75 for excessive wear and tear on a workbook and I was sent 2 letters in the mail plus 4 emails stating that this fee must be paid or my son could not register. The fine could be paid prior to registration or at registration the week before school started. If the schools are go this far so that they could collect $2.75 I am sure the parents also received notices. Our children need to learn responsibility and realize in the real world there are consequences.
dutch
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:56 p.m.
What if the child moves during summer? Or, goes to live with another relative. Should a child be punished because they do not have a stable home life?
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:31 p.m.
I think all the commentors missed this point. Judging from the article, Ms Doughty from Community Action Network felt it was unfair to make a poor student pay the fine, so she went to the school and paid it. Wonderful! Now other students who do not wish to take responsibilty for their outstanding obligations have a financial resource! Thank you Ms Doughty!
A2centsworth
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:03 a.m.
I tend to think Ms Doughty set this girl up to be her pawn to get some press for herself. If you read Doughty's comments she seems to have an axe to grind. The student a nd her mom seem to have been caught up in Doughty's drama. They never said they were not going to pay it.
Gorc
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:46 p.m.
Sounds a bit like government entitlements.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:42 p.m.
She got sent home and someone else paid her bill. Oh goodness...
RTFM
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:26 p.m.
Perhaps the student should read the ECON ALIVE book to understand the lesson here.
Bradley Pearsall
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:20 p.m.
I agree with the statements about personal responsibility but I think sending a student home was irresponsible. What if her parents weren't home? What if something happened to her on the way home? There is a seriel rapist on the loose! Is the school district ready to accept the liability for a student getting hurt because they were sent packing?
Lac Court Orilles
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:15 p.m.
I have much confidence in Principal Michael White making the right decisions when it comes to student discipline. If Michael White sent her home, she deserved it! Michael White is a breath of fresh air when it comes to teaching students right from wrong. Others need to support Michael White, so we can all educate our children to be responsible citizens.
MIKE
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5 p.m.
Mrs. White, is that you?
Lovaduck
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:14 p.m.
Such a sense of entitlement on her part. If one is low income there ARE arrangements, I'm sure, that can be made but you don't just go around losing things, taking no responsibility, and expecting society to take care of it all for you. I'm disgusted.
Steve Borgsdorf
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:07 p.m.
Oh how rich! Anonymous commentators preening about "personal responsibility."
Jack
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 3:37 a.m.
Why do you personally wish to know the names of commentators? What is it to you? Because you do? Or appear that you do? A name should mean nothing, only the thought that is presented. Just why should someone have to reveal their identity? Many people are hesitant to reveal their identity due to their job, their lack of stomach for personal attention, shyness, whatever. A forum that allows one to be anonymous encourages participation from all types of people.
Steve Borgsdorf
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:35 p.m.
Oh I'll keep using the site, thanks. A2.com has many annoyances but anonymous commenting--in general--ought not be banished from the internet or even from this site. There are instances where people can only meaningfully participate if their identity is shielded. My point is more modest...simply to notice the rich irony of anonymous commenters bemoaning a lack of personal responsibility.
KeepingItReal
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:11 p.m.
Take your concern up with annarbor.com. Otherwise, don't use the site if you disapprove of the format.
Steve Borgsdorf
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 7:51 p.m.
My point, anonymouscommenterperson, is that personal responsibility might include taking personal responsibility for one's online presence and comments, rather than slinging opinions from behind some alias.
KeepingItReal
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 7:19 p.m.
Borgsdorf: What's the point of your comment?
Dante
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:43 p.m.
High School is the next step to college. Ignore a fine from your college and see if you can register for classes. I had a 25 cent yes 25 cent due to the library in college and could not register to graduate until i paid the 25 cents. It is a lesson learned. Lets move on.
eastsider2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:32 p.m.
There are many separate points to be investigated/discussed here: - is explusion from school (even for a day) a reasonable punishment for overdue obligations? To those who said that colleges/jobs do it: colleges and jobs are also not required to enroll/employ their students/employees. Public schools are. Job 1 is to educate. - By all means, we need to teach responsibility for school materials. No question there. Was this the best way? That's the question. Is community service actually a plan for paying off obligations at our schools or was Doughty just bringing that up as an idea. The article is not clear on this. Some comments seemed to assume the student knew she could do service but refused. And you know what happens when you assume... - does how the books were lost make a difference in punishment? Should it? Do they handle things like this on a case by case basis? Book "loss" could be due to carelessness, eviction, theft, fire, flood, vandalism - lots of reasons. But the book's still gone and needs to be replaced. - aaparent's comment is right on the mark: there are many questions not answered m the article - how was the student notified of the fines? Was the student aware she could not register with outstanding obligations? Who tracks obligations and are there district wide policies to deal with them? - article states the school website says "obligations must be cleared" before registration. Doesn't use the word paid. So, aa.com, ask the school if there are ways to clear the fine without money. There were overdue obligations. It seems it's up to the school to work with the family to get payment/clear that fine. Up to the family and the school to decide if they have "enough" money to pay.
KeepingItReal
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:26 p.m.
Doughty and Miller may think they are doing this student a favor by advocating for her to be irresponsible. Just because a student is "poor"" does not excuse them from behaving irresponsible. This student knew she had outstanding fines but choose not to deal with them. Its not being mean, its teaching personal responsibility. Too often, liberals do more damage by lowering the standards for those who are suppose to "disadvantaged" than by raising standards.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:05 p.m.
This is an assumption that she "chose not to deal" with the problem. We don't know what efforts she may have made.
mun
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:23 p.m.
If you don't have the resources to pay the fines for losing books, that should be more reason not to lose books.
Left is Right
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:49 p.m.
The reason not to lose books is that they are the property of others--all of us in this case. It's hard to coerce respect, which is something the rulemaking class always has some difficulty understanding.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:04 p.m.
This seems to say that if you have financial resources, you can be irresponsible.
nixon41
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:19 p.m.
Some people never learn what the rules are.
Left is Right
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:43 p.m.
And I thank my lucky stars for that!
JustMyOpinion
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:15 p.m.
Seems that there was a lack of responsibility on one side and a lack of creativity and thought on the other. No doubt the student should pay her fines, but sending her home lacks creativity and any real punishment value. There are many more things the school could have and should have done in response - this was just lazy on their part. Limit extracurricular activities, athletics, school functions, field trips and library check out privileges. Keep her after school for X number of days performing work for a teacher until its paid off. The idea is to make the lesson have value and meaning, not just be mindlessly punitive. I agree the danger of Ms Doughty's words is that Ellisha Champine becomes some pathetic victim. It's the problem of "I see you as a disadvantaged incapable person. so let me help you" that many people seem to have. I can tell you from first hand experience, it doesn't help and it creates a very damaging self image. (which seems to be present already, since she even posed for this photo - I would have been too embarrassed) Better for her to have given the girl the money and made her work it off - would have engendered respect, value and a lesson in hard work. To get out of the hole of poverty, one needs 3 things: education (HS is enough), self respect / self confidence and a work ethic. It's enough.
Ron Granger
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:07 p.m.
Quite a number of people seem to want to judge this girl harshly without any facts, all while delivering a lecture on personal responsibility. Do they still allow soapboxes on The Diag? I have no idea what the specifics of this situation are, and it is not my business. But I can remember some not uncommon situations I saw when growing up. I think back to those situations and try not to judge others too harshly. Especially kids. How do we know the books weren't lost when the family was evicted, or suffered some other hardship? Some parents say "Tough! I gotta pay rent!" when kids say they need to pay for lost books. I can imagine a lot of common situations that are far more serious than losing a tattered old copy of the grapes of wrath (really?!). I remember a kid whose father was an alcoholic and who beat him with a belt if he made noise during the day. You think kids in that situation are asking their old man for book money? What's a kid supposed to do if a parent throws stuff out, or it is lost while moving between foster families? We just don't know. Nor are the specifics any of our business. I remember students who were bouncing around between different foster homes. They didn't have many clothes. At the time I didn't realize how tough they probably had it. The kid's situation is not my business. But the conduct of the principal is. I am greatly disturbed by the report of the principal sending students home on the first day, and how the privacy of these students is being violated as a result. This needs to be investigated. I pay a lot of taxes to support this school system. Apparently it's a constitutional mandate, or something; I do my part. So where does this principal get off denying some kids an education?
John Spalding
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 9:05 p.m.
The child will eventually have to pay the fine back. She cannot get her high school diploma without paying all fines ( I know, because I had to pay back certain fines and what not before I graduated). I think Mr. White has the responsibility to help those who are having financial difficulty figure out a way to pay for the fines.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:09 p.m.
"So where does this principal get off denying some kids an education?" This is part of her education.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:21 p.m.
Ron, it is not a matter of judging, it is a matter of having everyone be held accountable. Why should one child pay a fine for a lost book and other not? Their situations should not enter this equation. Perhaps the method of restitution would be, but that is up to the school. To make excuses for some while making others accountable is unfair. The rules apply to everyone. How would you feel if your coworker didnt have to do his work, still got paid, but that work was assigned to you, without additional compensation? I am sure you would not like that. The article cedrtainly is slanted in a way that makes the school look like the villan, but I am doubtful the situation occured as it is being reported.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:25 p.m.
The "privacy" or lack therof of this kid (not these students) is a direct result of her (singular) whining to the press. Most people try to work with the people they are having a dispute with. I have felt me or my kids have been treated unfairly a few times in my life. I have yet to whine to the press about it. She did learn a lesson, that's for sure. Just whine and get your way. I hope she never plans to move outside the friendly confines of the freeway ring, or she will be in for a rude awakening. - Come to think of it, I don't think she can get away with that a UM either. So.....good luck to her, sounds like she will need it.
kms
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:58 p.m.
My son got several mailed notices over the summer that he owed $60 for a missing textbook he was sure that he had turned in. He even emailed his teacher but got no response. He was told he could not register until he forked over the $60. Right before school started, he once again went into the office and was told that lo and behold another student had just returned the book that was being charged to my son. I told him to get a teacher's signature this year for each book he returns to avoid this happening in the future.
Basic Bob
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:26 a.m.
We dropped off a book at the office that my daughter left at home. Before she could pick up the book, another student ripped it off, right in the grade office!. Fortunately the secretary took responsibility, but now we have to wait for a replacement book. I still don't trust the book depository will get this right, even with intervention by a staff member.
dutch
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:51 p.m.
This happened to me twice to the tune of $180. It took the book depository 6 months to refund my money. So, I told my children to photograph all of the books they turn in with their cell phone so we had a record of it.
ummsw
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:26 p.m.
We had the same experience, only it was the teacher who made the error.
grimmk
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:51 p.m.
When I lost a book at school I owned up to it, told my teacher and we came out with a plan for me to pay it back. I did extra chores at home, and helped my teacher out after school. I saved up enough and bought a new book a few weeks later. I felt horrible. I still have no idea to this day where I left it. But I didn't hide it. Is it stupid to hold students back for a book fines? They do it in college and no one gripes about that. This is a good lesson to be learned here. She'll have to do some extra work to get caught up, but maybe next time she'll be more responsible about things that are NOT hers.
Sam
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:49 p.m.
Some of the outrage (on both sides) should be directed to the textbook authors and publishers who don't hesitate to gouge students and tax payers by charging outrageous prices for books that come out in new editions every other year or so. That way older editions can't be used or sold back at reasonable prices. Take a look at many textbooks that were produced 50 years ago and you will see that the new ones haven't improved very much.
alarictoo
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:15 p.m.
E-readers are not a way out of this mess for public schools. First, if you take a look at e-book prices versus traditional printed books, there is not nearly the level of savings one would expect. James Patterson's hot new book, "Kill Me If You Can", is $14.99 in hardcover, and $12.99 in kindle. Textbook manufacturers are not going to kill their golden geese. So prices will continue to stay high. There will have to be a "license" for every copy of a textbook on every e-reader. Then say the e-reader is stolen. If the device is not "locked" the e-books are all there for the thief to use. The district then has to purchase additional licensing for the e-books. Then add the price of the e-reader. Or, the e-reader is damaged/destroyed (anyone remember Scarlett's one-to-one laptop program?). And the e-readers I have seen are not particularly durable devices. They certainly won't take the type of abuse that textbooks take on a day-to-day basis ("Oops, mom! I dropped my kindle in a puddle on the way home.") You just found different ways to get obligations/fines to pay.
kms
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:36 p.m.
It's probably too much to hope that with the increase use of e-readers, exorbitantly-priced textbooks will become obsolete.
JustMyOpinion
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:19 p.m.
Not only are they of lesser quality, they are riddled with errors. It's a bit of a scam.
David Cahill
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:39 p.m.
Great. Another example of Ann Arbor Public Schools stumblebummery. First the busing mess, and now this. Mark Twain was right when he wrote: "First God made idiots. This he did for practice. Then he made school boards."
Steve Borgsdorf
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:13 p.m.
Two points. First, if any of you "personal responsibility" preachers want to climb down off the soapbox and make a real positive difference in the lives of our schoolchildren, Community Action Network would be happy to have your help. Second, school is where we want our kids to be, and the attitude of "go home...you owe us $35" seems awfully misguided.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.
The parents did not say anything about their plans to remedy this situation. Why are so many people assuming they are irresponsible?
Not from around here
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:48 p.m.
A kid that has a computer and internet access at home doesn't need my help. I'm raising my family of four on $35K a year with no at home internet and no computer. And we don't take dime one of goverment assistance. If I can do it, so can anyone.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:37 p.m.
Steve: personal responsibility is not preached, it is a way of life. I have been on both end of the wealth/poverty spectrum and work full time and that has never stopped me from helping and teaching my children how to be good citizens. I will not accept excuses from other parents for the lack of responsible behavior on the part of their children. Poverty does not equate to ignorance. Does Ms. Doughty and her narrow opinions ("It's all about poverty and how poor people are screwed over and over and just can't get ahead, " Doughty said.) [Did she really say that??!!] represent CAN?
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:56 p.m.
It looks like Mr. White was put in a bad situation by Margolis. I bet he is glad to know that she has his back. Wait, where is our new $185k/yr "gal" (her words, not mine) in all this? Does Margolis make policy? or was she shooting from the hip? It sounds like Mr. White will be doing some spinning of his own in the near future. I respect the man and what he is trying to do, along with the methods he uses to acomplish that. I do not respect what looks to be a bit of backpeddaling in this case. I would much rather have him tell it like it is. Even better would be if the administration backed Mr. White to the hilt. He has a tough job and is trying hard. The parents make it even tougher. This gossip column makes it tougher still. I wouldn't expect to see this type of article in Hawkeye's home town rag.
thecompound
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:40 p.m.
Probably being "aloof", lol. (re: our gal)
swcornell
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:50 p.m.
Whenever my now grown sons brought home a school fine, I required them to get a job and pay it off. And yes the school always notified me of the fines as I'm sure Ann Arbor school district did for her family. By the time my sons were Juniors they didn't even discuss the fine with me they just took care of it. It's called responsibility. My neighbor pays kids $40 to mow his lawn. She could have earned the fine money in one afternoon with enough left over to go see a movie. And probably got a summer job out of it. That's how responsibility works! The school did the right thing!
Not from around here
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:57 p.m.
I heard someone call my name....I take my 8 year old with me when I go out and do odd jobs and scrapping to supliment our income. Also when we pick mushrooms, garden, fish and (god forbid) hunt to bolster our food supply. He knows the value of a buck and is always looking for extra work, not handouts, to fill his piggy bank. Too many people are becoming perminantly dependant on the goverment and do-gooders like Ms. Doughtery. We need to all take responsibility for our own lives and the lives of our children.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:57 p.m.
you are suggesting scenarios. You have no idea how she spent the summer.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:27 p.m.
Bravo swcornell! We seem to forget that the most important teachers of our children are us, their parents. I am proud of all five of my children. They are responsible, kind and compassionate young adults continuing to make good choices in their lives. Wealth or poverty does not have anything to do with a parent spending time and teaching their children to be good citizens. This student and her family should be ashamed of themselves. Sometimes it is hard to do the right thing, but nonetheless it must be done.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:58 p.m.
More crazy talk coming from resonsible parents trying to teach their kids something. Perhaps your frontal lobe is not yet fully developed? or maybe you are not from around here.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:38 p.m.
I would like to know how the media got involed in this story.
A2Woman
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:08 p.m.
@MIKE Your comment made me laugh. I stand corrected; why did A2.com get involved. BTW, if my kids lose books or other school materials, they will pay the fine. They all three began working at a young age for The Ann Arbor News, until 2 years ago. :::sniff, sniff:::
MIKE
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.
It's a bit of a stretch to say the "media" is involved.
alarictoo
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:53 p.m.
My bet is on Joan Doughty. Sounds like CAN was looking for some publicity.
A2Woman
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:15 p.m.
Agreed, why did the media get involved in this story at all? School started almost two weeks ago...Has this family been pursuing this public attention since then? Responsibility falls on the child, and her parents. Only in A2 would you see a story like this!
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:15 p.m.
and now they will expect the school to pay for her therapy after she reads all these comments.... Ann Arbor is the strangest place I have ever lived....
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:45 p.m.
Whining entited parent(s)? Just a wild guess, based on experiance with whining entitled parents.
Rose Garden
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:34 p.m.
Two lessons can be learned here: (1) Learn to be responsible when you know that there will be a fine for lost books and you know you can not afford the fine. (2) Don't be responsible but get the newspaper to tell your story, build up a lot of community sympathy and get the fine forgiven.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:54 p.m.
It sounds like you're saying that if you have the money to pay off fines, there is no need to be responsible.
cinnabar7071
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:35 p.m.
Seems #2 is the one being learned.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:22 p.m.
God forbid a high school student who is approaching adulthood actually suffer consequences (albeit rather minor consequences) for their actions--or, in this case, the lack thereof. Good Night and Good Luck
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:56 p.m.
Oh, kids absolutely should have consequences for actions, we just want to make sure they get taught what they are supposed to get taught when doling out consequence.
Barb
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:47 p.m.
Not sure anyone is saying she shouldn't have consequences but whether the current (and I do realize it is disputed) consequence makes sense. I mean, if it doesn't help, why bother?
Mike D.
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:12 p.m.
If you're a parent in a family of professionals, it's no big deal to take an afternoon off work to take your kids to school, get them registered, and pay their fines. If you're a family of professionals, you probably buy your kids cars and give them allowances so they can do it themselves. If you're a parent living in Arrowwood, you probably work long hours, have set schedules, and don't have extra cars for your kids. A system that works just fine for kids in wealthy families is going to be more challenging to poor families. Should this girl (yes, she is a girl, not an adult) have to pay the fines in some way? Of course. That should be dealt with by the school in a sensible fashion. Turning her away from school on the first day isn't sensible to anyone but the most mean-spirited.
48104
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:24 p.m.
Or, you put your kid on the AATA bus with the paperwork that was sent to you in the mail completed, and let them register themselves. There is nothing there that parents need to do that cannot be done in advance (fill out paperwork, write checks for any outstanding obligations). Kids get their books, put them in the their lockers, come home.
jcj
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:03 p.m.
"White has said he did not send students home from school for outstanding "obligations," Doughty said when she went to pay Ellisha's fine later that day, Pioneer staff told her about 10 students were sent home on the first day because of outstanding obligations. I am more concerned about WHO is telling the truth and WHO is lying!
A2centsworth
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:47 p.m.
@thecompound: yea with Mr. Madison.....
thecompound
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:36 p.m.
Maybe he was just having a "passionate discussion" with her. Yeah, that's the ticket...
MIKE
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:56 p.m.
Based on my dealings with Mr. White, I suspect he's the one being less than honest.
kms
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:47 p.m.
I agree. I think that's the more important aspect of this story. Obviously, students should be responsible for books they've lost, but what exactly happened at Pioneer?
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:31 p.m.
Well, there are two stories here, aren't there? I find it interesting that Ms. Doughty appears not to have name the Pioneer employee with whom she claims to have spoken (or, in the alternativve, A2.com did not report the name). Names always make a story more believable. Good Night and Good Luck
Gorc
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:51 p.m.
Just as the sharecroppers in the Grapes of Wrath had to endure drought and economic hardship, Ms. Champine will have to persevere.
Gorc
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:22 p.m.
Gramma - you are correct, hopefully Ms. Champine actually read the book and learned a lesson of how the poor were treated in a typical John Steinbeck novel. Otherwise she just wasted $35.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:06 p.m.
The GRAPES OF WRATH takes place during a time when the wealthy not only "persevered" but benefited from the situation of the poor.
Barb's Mom
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:43 p.m.
It says in the article that " Ellisha said she went home, went to her room and wrote on Facebook". How can they afford internet and a computer or phone etc, that can post on facebook and not afford to pay obligations.
jns131
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:23 p.m.
I was wondering that myself as I sit here with a phone bill that in 6 months has gone up $20 bucks. This includes phone and internet services. Unless this is a part of the HUD stuff I pay taxes on.
cinnabar7071
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:30 p.m.
Just more excuses Mike. Thats not helping.
Mike D.
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:05 p.m.
Yeah, the poor should sit at home in the dark eating gruel sending smoke signals to one another. High school students shouldn't have communication tools critical to being employable. You tell 'em.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:34 p.m.
I can't help but compare the reactions here to those when over 200 Pioneer students intentionally destroyed and damaged property at Huron and Skyline. There were so many calls for leniency as these kids were "being normal teens." There is no indication of what happened to the books lost by this young lady. Did she lose them? Were they taken by another student who didn't want to pay a library fine but wanted to read the books? Did their return get overlooked? If she were from a family with more resources, she could have just called Mom to come pay the fine or hopped in her car and gone and got the money. Certainly, she should have been given a little time to make arrangements to take care of her fine. Community service was suggested by Mr. Doughty.
Basic Bob
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 1:20 a.m.
The purple P's are still all over Huron. What happened to restitution or community service???
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:28 p.m.
All in your imagination. Very few commentators urged leniency. The largest complaint was with the uneven nature of the punishment, which might be the case here. But, in both cases, the punishment seems appropriate to the "crime". Good Night and Good Luck
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:24 p.m.
A2Mom. Dillon Pearce and his friends were not held responsible when they vandalized a police car. Many people were outraged that it was suggested that the 200 student vandals from Pioneer should be expected to pay for the damage they'd done. There is obviously a difference in how students from differing economic classes are treated.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:15 p.m.
No it is not a valid point. I have had 2 children go through Pioneer, and they do bend over backward to help the students in this situation. There are multiple notices sent home addressed TO THE PARENTS. There are phone calls. They will work with the student and family. This artile mislead the public by not stating the full procedure for lost materials. It seems the parents ignored the schools attempts to collect this debt. Sending home a student is the last resort. Gamma, the girl lost one of the books over 2 years ago! Slack was definitely given here since she was allowed to register last year. It is not about poor vs wealthy. It is about equal responsibility. If she is not held accountable, then every other child who lost books and reimbursed the school should not have to either. At that point Gamma, pull out your checkbook and you can pay for all of them. Rules are rules, and they need to apply to everyone.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:37 p.m.
Good point.
Jon Saalberg
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:30 p.m.
I would just like a show of hands on how many commenters have teenagers. It's a fact that the frontal lobe in teenagers is undeveloped. So expecting adult-like behavior from teens is often frustrated by the fact that they are not, contrary to the way they are treated, adults. Please read books such as "Yes, Your Teen is Crazy", then tell me if you are still so firm in you beliefs regarding teenagers. This is not to say that schools shouldn't teach personal responsibility - it is to say that if the standards the schools set are to expect adult behavior from teenagers, they are setting unrealistic standards.
a2citizen
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:11 p.m.
What the heck does frontal lobe development have to do with returning library books? I learned this concept in the fourth grade. And I was educated in Detroit.
YpsiLivin
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:38 p.m.
Studies have shown that humans don't have fully developed frontal lobes until they're in their 20's. See <a href="http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~dms/Longitudinal/brain_MRI.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~dms/Longitudinal/brain_MRI.pdf</a> Without a completely developed frontal lobe, important functions (like attention span, ability to understand consequences, etc) don't operate optimally. (Which doesn't mean that young people shouldn't be held responsible for their actions, since nothing encourages desirable behavior like undesirable consequences.) As far as driving goes, young teenage drivers (who are unarguably most apt to be involved in at-fault driving accidents) need more supervised road time and more supervised driving experience to combat their natural proclivity to cause accidents. Graduated driver license (GDL) programs have been shown to be effective in reducing the number of accidents and fatalities involving minor drivers by providing more supervised road time and restrictions on driving activities that are associated with higher accident rates (like driving at night and with passengers). <a href="http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/newdriver/saveteens/sect3.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/newdriver/saveteens/sect3.html</a>
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:57 p.m.
Barb, I think you misunderstood me. In no way do I support allowing a child of 14 or 16 to drive a car. In my home, no one gets drivers training until they are 18. The state can say 15, but momma's rules override that! :-)
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:29 p.m.
ERM: In AA, I am afraid most frontal lobes are not fully developed until dementia sets in. That entiteded lobe is usually fully developed by about age 9 though.
Edward R Murrow's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:26 p.m.
An excuse to permit unacceptable behavior. Applying your logic, then, at what point do teenagers become responsible for their actions? Good Night and Good Luck
Barb
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:16 p.m.
Uh @A2MOMof5, your analogy with teenage driving is faulty. If you do any kind of research on how many teens are killed while behind the wheel, you'll find lots to support that they're not at *all* ready to drive at 15 or 16. The frontal lobe aspect that @Jon cites is dead-on. And it's amazing how many areas it really plays into. In this case, sure, the parents are a key player. No doubt. But the fact remains, these kids aren't learning anything when they are being sent home.
alarictoo
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:14 p.m.
Hmmmm... Well, what about expecting adult behavior from the parent/guardian? Or is their frontal lobe "underdeveloped", too? Let's quit making excuses for their behavior, and, instead, model and expect correct behavior. It's called parenting.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:09 p.m.
Jon, if that was true, then why does the state of Michigan allow children at age under the age of 15 behind the wheel of a car? Frontal lobe underdevelopment? Please...Your logic is faulty. It is the job of every parent to teach their children personal and social responsibility. Shame on Elisha's parents for not doing their job! All of my children are productive and responsible and when I read this article to them, were ashamed by Elisha's behavior. In order to let our children know they can reach for the stars it is our job to teach them pride in all they do. Elisha's lost books simply show a student who does not take her education seriously. Stop blaming everyone else around her. Mr. White may be tough but he is doing the children a service in preparing them for the world where they will not be coddled and excused. All Elisha is learning in this situation is to whine, grip, and make excuses. I applaude Mr. White for sending her home.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:48 p.m.
My teens all did just fine, thank you. I don't treat them like they are crazy and they return the favor by acting sane.
local
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:41 p.m.
I would say I agree with you, but if this student received multiple reminders, and knew she lost them, then she is responsible. That isn't just an adult lesson, that is a life lesson.
jmac
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:27 p.m.
Ann Arbor high school students with outstanding media center fines - from overdue books, lost books, damaged books (or DVDs or CDs) - get several reminders by email and snail mail over the summer to pay these fines or else they will not be allowed to go through registration and pick up their schedules and books for the upcoming school year. The Book Depository is open almost all summer long and there is plenty of opportunity to pay the fines or figure out alternatives. FYI, registration for classes is actually accomplished online at the end of the previous academic year and students come to the school THE WEEK BEFORE school starts (time and data based on class and last name) to pick up their schedules and books - again, this would have been a great opportunity to address media center fines before the first day of school. This student is now a Junior and it's not clear why she didn't know any of this or didn't act on any of it. Learning is an experience that is sometimes accomplished the hard way.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:43 p.m.
cette: agreed, "community service" is an option used by the school. My experience with the staff at Pioneer is that they are willing to work with students and consider their situations. I think the article is misinforming the public and there are facts not in evidence. I have a problem with the girl and her mother believing they can complain to the press rather than discuss this with school officials, as the article does not mention the mother stating she tried to discuss this with the school only that she was unaware.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:57 p.m.
@a2momof5. I was thinking about that...it's been a long time since she lost them, first, it'd be a cheaper to just replace the books than pay the fine. It's best to try to reward bringing the books back, carrots work better than sticks..time working in a library, or helping the book lady out at the counter...working off the costs somehow,and oh yeah, and two book reports...
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:36 p.m.
I doubt the validity of some of the statements in the article. Truth being we really do not know why she was sent home. Ms. Doughty seems to have her own agenda. cette: what would you suggest as a viable option?
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:14 p.m.
I completely agree something had to be done, but sending kids home is a bad answer to the problem that was going on for a long time.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:11 p.m.
My point being, they gave her and her family 2 years to fix the situation. I think that was lenient enough. Finally something had to be done as obviously the situation was not taken care of in that time.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:59 p.m.
There are no high expectations if two years later there's a consequence for a lost book...that's slacking by staff...
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:51 p.m.
mad adults? I would preferto call them frustrated. If the book was lost 2 years ago, they already gave her slack by allowing her to register last year. Maybe sending her home was a final resort. Mr. White is military, he has high expectations of his students. The only ones that call him tough are the students and families of those that do not wish to comply with the rules, and if he sends those kids home, that is fine, because it means they are not interfering with my childrens education. In this economy his high standards are a gift to the students by helping to prepare them for the REAL world.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:13 p.m.
Wow, you're not much involved with schools if you think schools have maximized their behavior management, both of school and staff members... Nope, mad adults giving kids payback does not result in the outcomes desired...
alarictoo
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:11 p.m.
Hmmm... There's a humorous scene... "I'm sorry, {insert student's name here}. But you cannot leave for the summer until all of your unpaid obligations are taken care of." @cette - Quit drinking the Kool-aid and take a look at the real world. The only effective method that the schools are not employing is garnishing the parent/guardians' wages.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:29 p.m.
Which brings me back to the methods aren't working, there's way too many reminders, and these are books from the end of the year? Sometimes school staff are just stuck, using methods that don't work over and over again. Why wasn't this taken care of at the end of last year? That's the real question.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:19 p.m.
If Principal White sends kids home to teach them a lesson, then Principal White is not using Positive Behavior Support....it's a holiday for the kids when they get sent home, and they don't get educated at the same time. Tsk, Tsk, Principal White, time for some more PD.
jns131
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:19 p.m.
Hem hem parents. Mr White will also bring your child into his office if your child is failing classes as well. This I was told. I also commend him for those cameras to keep our children safe as well. So, to Mr White I applaud for keeping our children safe and making them responsible for letting them know you need to grow up and show that you are a responsible young adult.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:20 p.m.
Not always true. Never say never.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:10 p.m.
No Barb, I am not overgeneralizing. This is what school officials have told me.
Barb
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:49 p.m.
"Home suspension only works for students that have responsible parents" Oh, please. Over-generalize much?
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:36 p.m.
Home suspension only works for students that have responsible parents. Teachers and principals have told me that in school suspension is sometimes the only option for a child with uncooperative parents.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:26 p.m.
We both work too, so spare me. I am 110% sure that my kids would not consider this a "holiday" in any way shape or form. or at the very least they would consider the price they paid for their time away from school not worth it. No, sometimes "keep the kid in school" isn't best. Usually it is, but not always. This might be one of those cases. Perhaps they felt she could go home and get the book or the money? BTW, once my kid got suspended. I opted for in school suspention, since I felt it was a harsher "sentance". If the option was not available, I would have figured something out, up to the point of my wife and I switching off vacation days to stay home or finding somebody to act as monitor. Here, that didn't seem to be the case as no in school option was available. Not included in my options was whining to the "paper" about how unfairly Jr. had been treated.
Barb
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:51 p.m.
Very admirable @EyeHeartA2, but in my home, both parents work. We wouldn't be able to afford to stay home to ensure a kid who is sent home from school is disciplined at that time. Keep the kid in school. Isn't that what's best for the kid?
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:46 p.m.
It wouldn't be a holiday in my house if my kid got sent home. I can guarantee you that. Of course, I give a rip about my kids.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:34 p.m.
Nothing happens in a vacuum. The more you send a kid home, the more likely it is the kids comes home more. Whatever was going on, was going on before the kids started coming home, and that should be the point of intervention.
Barb
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:31 p.m.
The thing is, Mr. White's game is to get the parents to wake up. That's why he sends kids home. Which I totally get but it's a double-edge sword. The parents may need a wake-up call but the kid, who is is real obligation, is not getting anything out of the whole thing.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:15 p.m.
Here is a link to the Pioneer obligations pdf.....I found it on the Internet two doors down from Face Book. <a href="http://www.a2pioneer.org/pioneer.home/files/obligations.pdf" rel='nofollow'>http://www.a2pioneer.org/pioneer.home/files/obligations.pdf</a>
Barb
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:15 p.m.
What @cette said. Mr. White sends kids home as a punishment on a regular basis for all sorts of infractions. Which is ludicrous, and for many kids, no punishment at all but instead, a vacation. Why not use in school suspension more? That seems like a no-brainer for me. All you touting the kids need to learn personal responsibility don't really get that these kids aren't learning *anything* when they get sent home.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:08 p.m.
The reality is that sending a kid home is the only way to get some parent's attention. That is, for some households, until the parents are inconvenienced, nothing gets done. Emails, letters and phone calls will go unanswered and the problem being addressed gets no attention.
Mike S
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:33 p.m.
Don't let the other kids know they can get a vacation day by "losing" a book… oops, too late.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:23 p.m.
In other words these kids won't do their school work at home. They'll do their school work only if a schoolmarm is hovering over them?
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:45 p.m.
that's the idea, but it's not the reality, especially when it moves into a chronic response to a every situation.
local
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:35 p.m.
Maybe that's the problem, maybe the parents should do their job and make the suspension from school one they won't forget. I am guessing my parents would have made my life miserable for being suspended from school, not a vacation at home!
Barb
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:28 p.m.
Yes @Craig. They are doing school work when during in-school suspension.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:23 p.m.
Not as good, but not as satisfying as a day home...kids can sit and do school work quietly while being monitored.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:18 p.m.
"these kids aren't learning *anything* when they get sent home." but they would in an "in school suspension"?
a2roots
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:13 p.m.
There will be many playing the poor card here which is wrong. Tough way to learn a lesson but necessary. In this community there are endless resources available to assist. Parents are just as much to blame as the student. Not one student gets a book without knowing there is a penalty for losing or destroying it.
Craig Lounsbury
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:04 p.m.
Ms. Champine is officially enrolled in "Personal Responsibility 101" My 3 daughters grew up on the South east side, went to Mitchell/Scarlett and never lost a book. If they had lost a book old dad would have made sure it was covered with the school then old dad and daughter would have decided how daughter was going to cover her bill to dad.
CincoDeMayo
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:26 p.m.
Only if you were notified in a timely manner that it was misplaced. If you were notified two years later by those *responsible* for keeping track of these things, you would just have to pay for it - and I'm sure have your daughter work it off. But, you might do so grudgingly if you had found previous "lost" books in the classroom, or actually on the library shelves themselves, and mistakenly been charged with having lost them. Oh wait, that's me... : )
jns131
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:17 p.m.
Thank you. I thought I was the only nut who did this one.
cinnabar7071
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:16 p.m.
Craig you are a good father, thanks!
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:44 p.m.
Now that's just crazy talk right there, Mr.
justcary
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:46 a.m.
We are preparing children for life, hopefully including college and employment. If we aren't reinforcing basic responsibility for equipment and materials, we are doing students a disservice. Their colleges will not tolerate unpaid fees. Their employers will not tolerate lost uniforms, lost equipment, or disregard for multiple notices such as this student and her family had received (or the absence of valid phone numbers or addresses). Today, one young lady was marched one step closer to adulthood while Ms. Doughty argued for her carefree childhood innocence.
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:43 a.m.
The worst thing the school can do is to send a student home from school. A book fine just isn't enough justfication for doing that. There are other ways to get restitution for the book. What about the principal just saying it didn't happen?when it sounds he didn't check out the facts before hand. There's no "I'll look into it, and get back to you later." Is it legal to have book fines?
cette
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:25 p.m.
Yes, and you have make sure the methods you use, teach the things you want, not satisfy some angry adult.
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:23 p.m.
"The worst thing the school can do is to send a student home from school. " Allowing a child to go through life without learning personal responsibility is even worse, especially these days when so few people place any value on it.
justcary
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:35 a.m.
This article mis-characterizes what the AAPS calls an 'obligation' and makes it seem like unpaid fines are the reason for withholding registration. It's student responsibility that is being addressed, not unpaid fines. Fines are but one type of obligation. A single student's obligations could include several AAPS sports uniforms, a couple multi-thousand dollar tubas, several hundred-dollar textbooks, and a laptop computer. A careless attitude could cost the district thousands to replace just one student's outstanding items. Ask any university: outstanding obligations are a perfectly good reason to withhold services from students. Doughty is not a spokesperson for the schools or an expert on education.
Left is Right
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 7:48 p.m.
"It's student responsibility that is being addressed, not unpaid fines." Hmm, you have some evidence for this? In my experience with the AAPS--especially Pioneer over the years--I doubt that they could articulate exactly what is being addressed. Not to mention that we found that they could not even keep track of whether books had been returned or not. Maybe it's improved under White but it doesn't sound as though much has changed. They sure don't seem to have their story straight here.
a2cents
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:30 p.m.
college: also, no diploma unless obligations are cleared, no ifs/ands/buts. Harsh perhaps, but very common.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:26 a.m.
This attitude of this student her family and the community centers are ridiculous! Of course she should be responsible to pay the fine! She lost the books! That is the trouble with those that feel entitled, they take no responsibility for their actions and just expect others to take care of it for them. Responsible citizens of Ann Arbor, this is where YOUR tax dollars are going! I think all those kids who didnt pay their fine should be put on a work detail and work off their debt around the school over the summer. One step closer to getting the next generation out of the welfare mentality!
A2centsworth
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:56 a.m.
Ms. Doughty appears to be the instigator. Doesnt anyone else see her statements in the article? She seems to have started the whole ruckus!
Mick52
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:58 p.m.
I don't see anything from the family that they are denying responsibility. She says she can pay it when her Dad gets paid. Give this family a break.
MIKE
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:37 p.m.
She's posing for photographs, posting on Facebook, and giving interviews. That doesn't sound like she's looking for privacy.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:02 p.m.
They lost their "entitled to privacy" when they whined to the press.
Ron Granger
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:41 p.m.
"This attitude of this student her family and the community centers are ridiculous! Of course she should be responsible to pay the fine! She lost the books!" What is ridiculous is the judgement without facts. Do you know for a fact that she lost the books? Maybe the books were thrown out when they were evicted or suffered some other hardship. We don't know what goes on, and we aren't entitled to know - they are entitled to their privacy. It's bad enough that she was sent home from school on the critical first day and her life is being paraded in the news. Some people have *no idea* what some kids go through at "home", and are far too quick to assign blame.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:43 p.m.
That racial card seems reel its ugly head a lot here in Ann Arbor. justcary, if it were added as a class, then I think your concerns would be addressed. But I am unclear where you got your information.
EyeHeartA2
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:43 p.m.
Racial implications? Do tell how you managed to connect those dots?
justcary
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:48 a.m.
You probably have no idea what the challenges are in requiring students to perform community service. It's labor intensive, expensive, and fraught with legal implications, not to mention racial ones. The schools can no longer penalize a graffiti artist by having them clean walls.
cinnabar7071
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:16 a.m.
"Even if it wasn't a low-income student, if it was a regular forgetful teenager, I'd be outraged," Doughty said. "I never dreamed that would deny a child their education based on a book fee. This is ludicrous." Whats ludicrous is not teaching these kids any kind of personal responsibity. You're poor, so what?
A2Realilty
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:15 a.m.
While I agree that education is the ticket out of poverty, education without responsibility will prove worthless in life. Quite frankly, the lesson that Ellisha learned about being responsibility will be more valuable than several weeks of school. Learn to manage your life responsibly and you'll have a strong start to any career.
John of Saline
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:35 p.m.
Unfortunately, the adults around her are telling her that it's all about being against the poor, and not about, you know, being responsible for property that does not belong to you.
ypsilanti
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:12 a.m.
Yes, there is no doubt that she learned a lesson. She learned that in Ann Arbor, rigid and unquestioning adherence to petty rules is much more important than ensuring that children get a proper education. NIce job A2 schools!
A2centsworth
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:54 a.m.
She also learned not to trust the press or Ms. Doughty who it sounds like from the article was behind this article for her own gain.
CincoDeMayo
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 5:18 p.m.
A2MoMof5: To think because the book was lost two years ago so this family muct have been notified over the past two years makes sense, however, I just received a notification (via an email I regularly use) for the first time regarding a book my child neglected to return two years ago! At a school he no longer attends. I believe that personnel are just trying to do the best that they can, taking advantage of whatever opportunity exists at the moment. More control at the initial borrowing and returning time period could prevent a lot of this. Kids will always misplace books. However, the sooner the loss is recognized, the better the chance of finding the books.
jns131
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:14 p.m.
I missed that one. So she had a computer and did not check Pioneers Website to see what was what? Uh huh. I can see we need a lesson in responsibility.
Nephilim
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:23 p.m.
She learned a lesson? She went home to HUD housing, where mom was AT home wondering why her kid was home so early. She got on her computer to update her Facebook (gag) to let her friends know where she was and then she later states she was looking forward to talking with her friends and teachers but did not get a chance to. Yea she learned a lesson all right.
A2MOMof5
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 1:25 p.m.
The article stated one book was lost 2 years ago. That means the school has been asking for it for 2 years! Notices to the parents, phone calls, and contact with the student over that period of time yeilded no results. It is not petty. It is called being responsible. It is called self pride, and doing the right thing. When did these things become petty?
Charlie Brown's Ghost
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:21 p.m.
justcary - I'm afraid these days it is.
justcary
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:36 a.m.
responsibility is not petty
aaparent
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:11 a.m.
A2.com/Janet -- Could you update the story and explain in more detail about how students are notified about fines? I think that students get several notices either on paper or email before registration. However, the numbers listed for calling with questions are not always open at hours parents can call and it's is hit or miss to get an email back or phonecall about books. More questions to ask: A lot of kids have book fines every semester, what is the school district's procedures for notifying families and following up. What is the total number of kids who had fines at all 4 high schools and how many kids had outstanding fines at the end of the school year at Skyline, Huron, Community, Pioneer and how many were unpaid at fall registration and what happened? Are there administrators in each building or at Balas that track this information and know in advance? Did the families of these kids know in advance the fees were due? With all the money that has gone into Powerschool, automated school phone announcements and communication upgrades, I think it would help taxpayers understand how it all works.
DonBee
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:42 p.m.
aaparent - I got both emails and a letter when one of my children had an overdue book. Since they lost it, I had them pay over time from their allowance. They never lost another book, it took 5 weeks to pay the library back.
Blerg
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:54 a.m.
Why didn't these students register for class two weeks before school started with the rest of her peers? That would have given plenty of time to sort this out; waiting until the last minute seems to be the student's error, not the school's.
DonBee
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:40 p.m.
jns131 - She went home and posted to her facebook account - I would assume that means she has an email address at least.
jns131
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:12 p.m.
It is also posted on Pioneers Website as well. O wait, they are low income, they may not have a computer. But still, no ignorance for loosing books.
A2Woman
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 2:22 p.m.
There's also make-up registration the following week, for students who can't make it to the scheduled dates/times during the first registration process. (Aug 29, 30) The article doesn't state the registration process, but returning students & Pioneer parents are made aware of the dates. It's been the same process for years, since I've had two students go through Pioneer. Registration materials are sent to the PARENTS via snail mail.
48104
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:43 p.m.
Pioneer registration was August 23 and 24. That's when most kids registered and picked up their books for the year.
jrigglem
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:27 p.m.
Maybe I missed it (it's early and I still haven't had my coffee) but where does it state that registration was two weeks ago?
Gorc
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:47 a.m.
This may teach Ms. Champine a lesson about personal responsibility.
jns131
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 3:11 p.m.
I could not agree more. Ours could not leave 8th grade without finding three books ours was missing. Found them in a classroom, but still, we went thru every book in every classroom and at home before we headed home.
olddog
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:45 a.m.
It's about time. Next to buildings, books are the largest capital investment that this district makes. Books should be turned over every five to seven years but AA has been running behind because of the cost for replacement of lost books. We need an inventory system that tracks every item we loan to a student over the course of time. It should monitor every thing from musical instruments and athletic uniforms to textbooks. We can't afford replacement cost anymore because of the huge bite on the budget.
Jeff Gaynor
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:38 a.m.
More and more schools are being positioned to be more and more about rules - and tests - with less regard for individual students.
justcary
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:38 a.m.
Jeff, to ignore this student's obligations to the school and her responsibility would be an example of 'less regard for individual students'.
justcary
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:37 a.m.
It's not about rules and tests today. It's about responsibility.
local
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:04 a.m.
Jeff, aren't you a teacher? Rules and expectations are part of growing up and becoming part of our society. Though the punishment seems extreme, she knew she had lost them and she had ways to work them off. As for tests, I agree we you on all fronts!! Way to many test for all age groups. MEAP, NWEA when will it end.
olddog
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:50 a.m.
seems to me that responsibility is lesson #1 that can be integrated into all classes.
A2comments
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 10:37 a.m.
She lost not one book, but two. She knew she lost the books. She knew she could pay the fines off over time or through community service, but did neither, despite an entire school year passing since she lost the first book. Yet she complains that because she's poor that she's being discriminated against because she's poor (I chose to not use the word she used). Seems she is at fault for losing her books and then for not choosing a method of restitution. No discrimination here, just apparent lack of responsibility.
A2centsworth
Tue, Sep 20, 2011 : 12:53 a.m.
The student did not say she was not going to pay for it. This whole article seems to be instigated by Ms Doughty who used this situation for her own publicity. Boo Hiss Ms. Doughty!!
Roadman
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 8:25 p.m.
I see no method of restitution. Denying a student access to education mandated by state law is not a proper way of enforcing compliance.
obviouscomment
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 6:45 p.m.
so apparently at least 256 readers of annarbor.com are upper class elitists who have made no mistakes in life and feel they are better than others of fewer means. i missed the part of the article that expresses that "She knew she could pay the fines off over time or through community service".
Mick52
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 4:50 p.m.
Maybe the school could have sent a bill last spring? And where does she claim discrimination? Maybe I missed it but I did not see any claim of discrimination in the story.
Gramma
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 12:44 p.m.
Maybe the family did not have the resources to pay it off? Also, no matter how good we are as parents, our kids do things we don't know about. Think back to when you were a teen.
Dot
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:51 a.m.
ditto on "G" "It could be handled in other ways, from establishing a payment plan to working the fine off through community service, Doughty said" it's a suggestion - not an option
G
Mon, Sep 19, 2011 : 11:14 a.m.
Is there actually a method of restitution? The article represented Doughty as saying it could be handled another way, but it does not say that other avenues for restitution already exist. Elisha says that White sent her home for unpaid fines, but White's public statement denies that the school sends students home for this reason. Sounds like there's more to this story.