Snyder expected to take on teacher tenure, merit pay in education speech

SemperFi

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 3 p.m.

It seems that Snyder is throwing the spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks. It doesn't appear that he really investigates the fallout and repurcussions of his "improvements". If it helps the business community, it must be a good thing. His myopic view of the world is staggering. Perhaps he could get his venture capital companies to pay their taxes on time. That would help the economy. But wait, it's better for business if they don't have to pay taxes. Oh, okay. C'mon Nerd, stop being such a hypocrite.

alan

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 1:54 p.m.

Sorry, I meant pillory.

alan

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 1:29 p.m.

How does this continue? Let's all find someone to blame for all of life's ills and ignore the problems. It's those republicans. No it's those democrats. Let's blame commies. Hitler had Jews, Snyder appears to have teachers. Sure, we'll all be so much better off after we pillage the teachers.

sh1

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 1:21 p.m.

Merit pay is just a code phrase for figuring out a way to pay most teachers less than what they're currently getting.

snoopdog

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 12:18 p.m.

Tenure protects the lazy and non productive and dumbs down education, it needs to be done away with. Good Day

alan

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 1:39 p.m.

Or tenure protects the brightest, most motivated, most productive from political infighting and sniping and improves education for all? Probably somewhere in between. As far as dumbing down education, I would look to the home.

Lisa Starrfield

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 11:09 a.m.

Merit pay is all the rage in education and very popular amongst some who comment regularly on this board. Yet, no one has described what it would look like here in Michigan and frankly, I'm quite skeptical. Indiana recently put forward a merit pay plan that might, as an example sent out to teachers statewide, pay as much as $2000 extra IF you were a department chair who was highly effective working at school that was 80% free and reduced lunch. $2000. If this comes as a bonus, you might see as little as $100 a month which wouldn't pay for the extra gas needed to get me to such a school every day. If this comes as a raise, then no one seems clear when you get that money. Again, I have asked these questions but no one seems to have an answer. If we go to merit pay, there will be a finite pool of extra money available. WHO gets it? WHO decides? What are the criteria? Do you want to use test scores? That's the usual, facile answer. But only grades 2-5, middle school math and reading teachers are tested every year. All other subjects are tested once in middle school and there's only one high school exam. That's less than half of our teaching staff. How do you compare the Science teacher to the art teacher and decide who deserves more 'merit'? What do you do when all your math teachers are working together to improve a program? I can't imagine that this proposal will be funded well enough that every teacher in a district, a building or even a department will earn merit pay even if they deserve it.

a2flow

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 12:01 p.m.

To further what Don wrote...here is a link for FL. <a href="http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-03-15/news/os-merit-pay-show-the-money-20110315_1_volusia-teachers-organization-andrew-spar-new-evaluation-systems" rel='nofollow'>http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-03-15/news/os-merit-pay-show-the-money-20110315_1_volusia-teachers-organization-andrew-spar-new-evaluation-systems</a> I don't object to merit pay, but the devil is in the details. Where would the money come from? Snyder is effectively cutting educational dollars. It seems he is starving the budget, then only people that meet some yet undefined criteria for merit pay, will maybe make what they previously made. I don't think it's fair that everyone makes the same right now. Some people do the minimum and make a small impact, while some make a large impact and our outstanding. Not all positions have the same amount of work required of them in the district. Why are some of the administrators getting paid more than others (I might add they aren't as effective as some lower paid admins).

DonBee

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 11:37 a.m.

In one of the districts in the UP, they instituted merit pay. The maximum a teacher can make from merit pay? One (1), yes 1 dollar. What a joke. If Merit pay is going to be instituted it needs to be a real bonus. In most cases a reasonable bonus for performance starts at 10% of annual pay and works up from there.

godsbreath64

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 4:06 a.m.

The story that will unfold next week is that Snyder is reneging on his televised claim that he is not going to go after collective bargaining in Michigan. Despite his word sitting next to the Honorable Dave Bing on Channel 7's web town hall weeks back, the Right to Work funding was on his way to Lansing that weekend. Now last week, the Right To Work staff were in Lansing unrolling their affairs to union bust this state, too. Again, Richard Dale Snyder lied straight to the Channel 7 camera and said specifically he wasn't doing what Scott Walker is trying in Wisconsin. He couldn't keep eye contact with the camera, but for a split second. But there he was, lying about not sieging Michigan's grand union heritage. When, as we will find out, the opposite of his word is true. Also, notice his party is today floating two year loss of teaching certificate if they strike. Res ipsa locquiter only applies if those actions are seen. Well, next week they will. Already they have formed their gaggle with the other carpet-baggers and the radicalized MI GOP wannabes. What is most astonishing is he is going to do this 72 hours before imbuing the graduating class at UM commencement. They are going to make media for him. Yuk.

DonBee

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 1:40 a.m.

Let's see if you actually read the articles in the Detroit papers this morning - both Merit Pay and Tenure are part of a quote from the leader of "Democrats for Education Reform" I did not know our Governor was a Democrat. His spokesperson mentions nothing about either topic, at least in the print edition. Rather than drawing up battle lines before the Governor speaks, would it not be easier on the blood pressure to wait and see what he actually proposes. As to the strike penalties for teachers, those did not start in the Governor's office.

treetowncartel

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 2:25 a.m.

Not to mention paying a mortgagae on a house that is worth about 2/3 of what is owed onit. Maybe I should just do like everyone else and walk away and leave the others fighting over the scant meat left sticking to the bones. i act5ually don't even contest my tax assessment because I don't want to see a reduction in my services. Maybe you should check me into a hospital for the deranged, but sadly that option is no longer avalble either.

treetowncartel

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 2:17 a.m.

Seriously, I have more respect for the Governor of Wisconsin who is waging his battle full onagainst the evil public workers. Here in Michigan, we are adding layers to the assault, in an apparent attempt to shield the people who have orchestrated it. First, strip the funding , and while your at it change the tax atmosphere. Now my EFM's can get in the front door to do my dirty work. Second, establish the authority to to go in and how shall we say it, wreak havoc without even seeing if people will negotiate with the new banan republic. Finally, lets belittle the people the public employee, make them feel like they don't even deserve to have a first day on the assembly line at McDonald's building hamburgers. Look at Detroit, people are upset with the EFM, Robert Bob, not the people who put him there. Those of us who have jobs that force us to deal with public employeees are glad that they pay a wage and give benfits that attrtacts more than just a warm human body to the position! Me and my spouse make decent money, we are raising kids who we don't think are stupid, we love Michigan but have no real incentive to contribute to the debacle unfolding around us, we are not opposed to considering taking our taxes to a greener pasture in another state.

Huron74

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 10:25 p.m.

Get a grip youse guys. He hasn't even given the speech yet.

Roger Roth

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 11:28 p.m.

Probably doesn't have to.

maestra27

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 10:11 p.m.

For the sake of fairness, if the legislature eliminates my tenure protections as a teacher, then maybe we should eliminate their recall protections. Everyone should be forced to deal with the immediate whims of the people - be they just or not, right?

Lisa Starrfield

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 11:19 a.m.

I think we should extend the EFM to the Governor and legislature. Isn't the state in crisis?

northside

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 9:36 p.m.

The anger directed towards tenure is one of the clearest signs of how beaten down and dispirited the U.S. workforce has become. Here's one of the few occupations where, as Wind Cries noted, due process and just cause actually mean something. Yet because so few have what should be a basic worker right, most others are resentful. Instead of realizing that tenure-type protections should be expanded to most (or all?) jobs, people want to take it away from the few that have it.

snapshot

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 9:09 p.m.

Nepotism CANNOT be used as an arguement opposing "merit pay". Unions and government jobs are rife with nepotism. What is it about "my father was a fireman, my grandfather was a fireman, or policeman, or politition, or sanitation worker, or GM employee, or Chrysler, or Ford, they may profess "equal opportunity" but if someone were to do a census, the numbers would speak for themselves.

SemperFi

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 3:11 p.m.

Private business is rife with nepotism as well. You don't seem to have a problem with that. I haven't seen nepotism as a real problem in any public school system, so I'm not sure why its even being discussed.

Paul

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 7:37 p.m.

Those that say merit pay is Nepotism, should understand that Merit based pay protects teachers and all workers from Nepotism (if implemented correctly) . Being rewarded for your performance is what drives this country. Not entitlements which are give based on the number of years you worked.

Lisa

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 10:19 a.m.

If there is a finite amount of merit pay, that is if not everyone can earn it, how will you decide WHO gets it? What are the criteria? No one has said.

DaLast word

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 7:28 p.m.

If the people spending our tax dollars had been more responsible and not just giving in to union demands we wouldn't be in this position. I have a 60 year old neighbor woman who has been financially iresponsible her whole life and now she mooches off her elderly parents, it's the same thing.

sh1

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 1:19 p.m.

Please describe the union demands that were given in to.

The Wind Cries

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 7:23 p.m.

Those who say tenure has no place in education simply don't understand its purpose. Tenure is about two things, due process and just cause. Of course how could we expect a person who would place an EFM who exceeds voting and collective bargaining rights to understand or care about those things?

The Wind Cries

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 4:48 a.m.

Snapshot, thank you for explaining my life to me. You do not know me or in what capacity I have worked. I do not pretend to know what your idea of "real labor" means; but I have worked in union careers, upper management in union organizations, and in companies in which no worker at any level was unionized. You cannot tell me that I have been "insulated from real labor"; again, you do not know me. Just because someone disagrees with Governor Snyder it might be possible they are not and nor have never been a public and/or worker. My view of due process and just cause are accurate. These rights are derived from state and federal constitutional provisions, state and federal statutes, and state and federal regulations. Ronald Reagan, in his Labor Day speech at Liberty State Park in 1980 stated: "…where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost". Additionally, the right to vote is the foundation of any democracy; there are many that believe the governor of this state does not have the right to take away the power of an official that has been elected by the people.

snapshot

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 9:16 p.m.

You have a distorted view of "due process" and "just cause" because you have been excluded and insulated from the real world of "labor". You mistake "entitlements" as "rights" and have been "institutionalized" to the point where you don't even recognize "due process" when it occurs, such as implementing "emergency managers" and providing them the power to make tough decisions. That power was given with "due process and just cause". Go figure.

DaLast word

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 7:30 p.m.

Union speak !

Paul

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 7:20 p.m.

Good for Rick!.. Expecting teachers to be rewarded based on their performance rather than how many years they have taught only seems to make sense.

SemperFi

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 3:07 p.m.

How about you write to Rick and tell him to pay his business taxes.

Ignatz

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 10:33 p.m.

Teacher performance has much more to do with things out of the teacher's control. Parents and the child's friends have more influence than a teacher does. Plus, what will the teachers be measured on? Test scores? They're already teaching how to take the standardized tests rather than educating because of this.

The Wind Cries

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 7:36 p.m.

I have to wonder if schools can be run like a business? Can teachers tell students who do not perform to leave the classroom and not come back? Can schools deny entry to children whose parents refuse to participate in their child's education? What about students with special needs, can a teacher refuse to educate them? As long as it is free and appropriate education for all, merit pay will just keep the best and the brightest from entering a profession that has no respect. If you want to run it like a business you can't just pick and choose which parts.

Top Cat

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 6:57 p.m.

There is no credible defense for tenure as it exists today in the public education system. It contributes nothing toward the education of our young people.

treetowncartel

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 1:40 p.m.

Snapshot, thank you for putting words in my mouth that were never there. I am truly blessed to have someone like you looking out for me.

Lisa

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 10:14 a.m.

Snapshot, It's the reduced benefits we object to.

snapshot

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 3:38 a.m.

Tree....So why are unions oppossed to much higher starting salaries with reduced benefits and a merit, management by objectives system? Your arguement sounds good but tenure is too valueable to give up at any cost, is it not? Who wouldn't want lifetime protection from termination even if they didn't "do the job" or "did the job poorly". Who's looking out for kids when you can't get rid of a poor teacher? I'm sure you know "bad" teachers or teachers who should no longer be teaching. What have YOU done for the children they don't teach? What has your union done for those children subjected to lousy teachers? I think the keep them, protect them, and then pay them to retire. You tell me..."how do we taxpayers ensure our kids aren't involuntarily subjected to lousy teachers?

godsbreath64

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 3:16 a.m.

Tree', you nailed it. Thank you

treetowncartel

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 7:15 p.m.

Actually, it is kind of a reward for taking a job that has really low pay to begin with. in essence, stick it out and we won't stick it to you down the road and replace you with someone we can offer really low pay. Now, if you mean there are teachers who are able to hide behind the tenure laws and do little to improve their lot and those that they are responsible for, I couldn't agree more.

Wake Up A2

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 6:50 p.m.

And to think he is a Republican wanting more government in our lives. One day he will focus on the economy, and not just education which he has been the last couple of months. Teachers are being picked on because republican's would rather keep your minds on them rather then the work they do. Extreme right wing politics doesn't help the process.

Lisa Starrfield

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 11:27 a.m.

Bogie, Teachers ARE paying more for our health care. We have also had reductions and added responsibility. But the economy is improving, the big 3 are handing out bonuses yet the attack on teachers continues.

Bogie

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 8:38 p.m.

Republicans wanting more government in our lives? Really? Even though, I think both parties are out of touch with reality; republican are not the party of "big government." I do think, that teachers are being painted with a broad brush, but something has to change. I know many people, that are paying more for their healthcare, and have received reductions in their compensation. Why shouldn't we expect the same from our public sector counterparts? There is one point, that the politicians are not adressing- administrators. There are way too many people in these administration buildings, and in Lansing. Their compensation packages are way out of line. My hope is, that the governor, and leglislature take from the top first, and then see what sacrifices teachers have to make.

treetowncartel

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 6:47 p.m.

What is the "nerd" up to now?

cette

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 6:47 p.m.

He's really not helping...

Michael Wade

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 6:27 p.m.

Merit Pay is Nepotism We don'y need the State policing our teachers.

godsbreath64

Fri, Apr 22, 2011 : 3:15 a.m.

Maybe cronyism, Mike? Great comment!

Ignatz

Thu, Apr 21, 2011 : 10:31 p.m.

Teachers hire their own family members as teachers? Huh?

Snyder expected to take on teacher tenure, merit pay in education speech

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