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Posted on Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 5:59 a.m.

Washtenaw County to consider adopting breastfeeding-friendly policy

By Amy Biolchini

Washtenaw County Commissioners will be discussing adopting a new policy that would allow mothers to breastfeed their children in county-controlled properties, as well as at public county meetings, at their next regular meeting Wednesday.

Inspired by an ordinance the city of Ann Arbor adopted in 2006, the drafted resolution is the result of a push by Washtenaw County Public Health staff to grant breastfeeding mothers more protection.


The universal symbol for breastfeeding, which would be used on signs posted in county-controlled properties to let mothers know it was acceptable to breastfeed in public.

The policy would mean staff at county-controlled properties — including courthouses, parks and offices - could not discourage mothers from breastfeeding in public, said Dick Fleece, director of the health department.

The drafted resolution states county-controlled properties should post signs that state the space is breastfeeding-friendly.

The resolution does not include language to dictate if mothers should cover their chest while breastfeeding their child.

“Women usually do it discreetly,” said Gayathri Akella, Washtenaw County breastfeeding coordinator and coalition co-chairwoman. “I don’t think verbage should be included in the agenda about how a woman should cover herself.”

Fleece said more research would be required to see if the county has the authority to adopt additional breastfeeding regulations beyond county-controlled properties.

The public health department already has a policy that does not discourage women from breastfeeding in public, Akella said.

Fleece said the health benefits of breastfeeding have been proven.

“Anything the county can do from a leadership role to help breastfeeding is welcome from a public health perspective,” he said.

About 2,750 counties in the U.S. protect public breastfeeding, while 382 have no policy, according to the health department. Michigan is one of five states without an overriding policy.

Though there is legislation proposed at the state level, little progress has been made in moving it forward.

Public health staff spoke before the Board of Commissioners at a Sept. 20 working session, where several commissioners expressed their support for adopting such a resolution.

“I was very impressed at how the Board of Commissioners responded to our presentation,” Akella said. “The support that they offered was incredible.”

Commissioner Yousef Rabhi, who heads the working sessions, expressed interested at the September meeting to put forth a resolution.

“I was breast-fed, and look at how I turned out!” he said.

Commissioner Leah Gunn called adopting the policy a “no-brainer” at the working session.

“This is the kind of policy that we should pass, and every other jurisdiction in the county should also pass it,” Gunn said.

“I really do believe it is a health issue, and I think health to the baby more than anything else,” said Commissioner Wesley Prater. “At one time it was a real economic issue … Now it’s not like that, but I think there are a lot of benefits associated with breastfeeding, at least at a very young age. My mom had eight of us, and that’s the way we all went.”

Akella, who is the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) program coordinator for Washtenaw County Public Health, said local breastfeeding rates are increasing.

About 75 percent of new mothers in Washtenaw County initiate breastfeeding with their newborn infants, Akella said. By the time the child is six months old, the rate drops to 16.5 percent.

The goal is to have 81.9 percent of new mothers breastfeed their children, and by the time the child is six months old to have 25.5 percent of mothers continue breastfeeding, Akella said.

About 55 percent of the infants born in Michigan are born into the WIC program, and WIC mothers have the lowest breastfeeding rates in the nation, Akella said.

“One of the identified barriers (to breastfeeding) is to not be allowed to breast feed in public,” Akella said, explaining she hopes the proposed county policy would help breastfeeding mothers feel more comfortable and less afraid of being harassed in public.

Washtenaw County Public Health advises mothers to follow breastfeeding guidelines set by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which recommend mothers breastfeed for at least 12 months, and those set by the World Health Organization, which recommends continued breastfeeding for two years and beyond.

Amy Biolchini covers Washtenaw County, health and environmental issues for Reach her at (734) 623-2552, or on Twitter.



Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 9:34 p.m.

As long as it's done reasonably. There was an issue a few years back when a mother was asked not to breastfeed her child in the public swimming pool. I don't think that was appropriate because if I was hungry they wouldn't want me bringing my food into the pool to eat while wading around. On the pool deck sitting in a chair but not the pool itself. What if the baby spit some of it up. Now the pool has to be shocked at the very least if not drained and cleaned. All I say is use some common sense. Not every place should be free reign for breast feeding.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 2:54 p.m.

Leah Gunn is right - this is truly a no-brainer....


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 2:37 p.m.

I've seen plenty of woman breast feed in public, in fact, I used to work at a place where it wasn't necessarily uncommon to see. It's a natural thing that needs to happen. I can't speak for everyone, but for the most part, I feel like most of the mothers I've seen do it in public, kind of slip away to a more private area and cover up. I see no problem with that.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 2:02 a.m.

I marveled that the question of breastfeeding in public could even be an issue until I saw the crude comments by Jon Wax (two of them!) and the off-the-wall message by Shepard145. Then there was Steven, who knew not that he knew not but was rehabilitated, I hope, through the patient, persevering comments of the knowledgeable and articulate Urban Sombrero. Carry on, Board of Commissioners! Get this no-brainer policy on the books as quickly as possible.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 2 a.m.

We all agree that a dicussion of breasts be added to the AA City Council Agenda every meeting unilt further notice.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 1:25 a.m.

There should not even be a need for this. Breastfeeding is not against the law. Mich. Comp. Laws § 41.181, § 67.1aa and § 117.4i et seq. (1994) state that public nudity laws do not apply to a woman breastfeeding a child.

average joe

Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 2:12 a.m.

So why does THIS county feel the need to "have a policy"?


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 12:14 a.m.

This IS an issue, unfortunately, even in Washtenaw County. I was with a friend in a county government building and she was breastfeeding her fussy baby. She was *totally* discrete and covered up but we were asked by county staff NOT to breastfeed. The irony is that we were to pick up birth certificates for our babies.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 11:33 p.m.

I agree with so many that tit_ies should become a regular AA City Council Agenda item!! After a year or two of debate, followed by one or more ballot initiatives, Council may then move on to craft proper ordinances each orifice. Let it never be said that AA is guilty of failing to recognize the value women!!


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 10:51 p.m.

I think for me it's not about the nudity or the double standards it's just the very act squicks me out. But hey, I can get up and move away. Having a designated room is a great idea. But let that not be the ONLY place. I may find the whole idea icky, but that's MY problem and I'm not going to impose it on the woman. How many have you honestly had to deal with this in the past year? Six months? I'm guessing not too often. Of course in my perfect world this wouldn't be an issue but then again I'd also be banning mustard, mayonnaise and bacon from existence. We're all adults and need to deal with our own personal hangs up and not let them get in the way of anyone else.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 12:01 a.m.

Only time I find it "icky" is when the kid is like 4 or older, like on that Time magazine cover, lol

music to my ear

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 9:54 p.m.

of course we must make accommodations it is a mothers God giving right, we were all babies at one time.

music to my ear

Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 6:24 p.m.

did not man to ditto was not sure the first one took

music to my ear

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 9:52 p.m.

OF course we must make accommodations for all mothers who choose to breastfeed , it is her god giving right. were we all babies at one time


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 3:37 p.m.

How is a Working Mother suppose to Breast Feed her baby? After six to eight weeks the women is back to work, the baby goes to child care until they go to school. Only the "Stay at Home Moms" would need this ordinance and they are Christians, Republicans or the "RICH" 1%ers like Mrs. Romney! So why would "Progressive" Washtenaw Countians want to support "Christians, Republicans or the "RICH" 1%ers"?

Steve Burling

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 5:37 p.m.

(Mourning the lack of an edit button...) My previous comment was directed at 'xmo', not 'annarbor28'.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 3:50 p.m.

I'm assuming this is a joke. Breastmilk is free, it is made for babies and has been used to nourish babies from the beginning of time. Many women pump at work, and Washtenaw Co could pass ordinances requiring that employers provide a place for nursing moms to pump and store milk, as NYS does. Many women nurse for several months, even when they are back at work, by pumping and feeding the baby via themselves when they are home. Breastmilk is far superior for babies in so many ways. This support of breastfeeding families should be a nonissue, not a debate. The images that one sees of women in magazines, the internet, and on TV are far more seductive and disturbing. This is food, no more, no less! The middle class who doesn't qualify for WIC pay several thousands of dollars for formula the first year if a mom doesn't breastfeed. Formula is free from WIC to the lower income and poor folks. So financially the middle class is hit the most by not breasetfeeding, plus babies lose the huge advantage they get from breastfeeding. As to religion, women of all religions all over the world breastfeed. It is not confined to just one religion, as this poster is stating.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 3:08 p.m.

Just as long as the women doing don't mind having their breasts looked at while they do it.

Jon Wax

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 4:05 p.m.

well at least 1 breast... Peace


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:34 p.m.

really? we need a policy for this? unless you are driving, operating heavy machinery or hanging out in an operating room (use common sense) I say whip it out and feed your baby if your baby is hungry. I seriously don't know who in a2 gives a crap. I don't think we need special signs or policies for such things.

Steve Burling

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 5:34 p.m.

Steven apparently cares.

Jim Walker

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:29 p.m.

I once sat next to a lady on a plane who was breastfeeding, she made no attempt to cover herself and the infant, she was not embarrassed and neither was I, so we carried on a normal friendly conversation - partly including the obvious fact that her child was really hungry that day. No one else on the plane, including the flight attendants, made any comments or gave her any special attention. It is only an issue if people make it one. James C. Walker, Ann Arbor, MI

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:11 p.m.

It's OK for women to walk around in a string bikini, with barely anything covering her nipples or other private areas, but a woman nourishing her infant via breast is offensive? Only in America.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 1:47 p.m.

Welcome to Puritan-settled America.

Dave Bass

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 3:22 p.m.

Right on!

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:12 p.m.

And, on that same vein, every time I go to the beach without fail I see large men, with bigger breasts than mine, walking around topless. THAT'S OK? But, a woman breastfeeding is offensive? LOL


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:06 p.m.

Clearly men writing in are thinking about the 20 somethings they see walking/ running in their neighborhoods or sunning themselves on the patio. We can all agree that those girls nursing anywhere would be awesome – the more the better. Though it's not my thing, some could even make some cash on the web while there at it. The devil is in the details though and the likelihood that there is an age or weight limit to such laws is remote. It's a scientific fact that women can nurse well into their 30's! Have supporters considered that!?


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:34 p.m.

It's 2012, grow up.

Top Cat

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:25 p.m.

For once, I would hope that we have something here we can all agree upon.

Basic Bob

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 3:46 p.m.

Was there a policy to discourage breastfeeding? Did someone actually complain or interfere?


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:21 p.m.

This is where government needs to bow out and just let the BF vs non BF sparr it out. I am not for and I am not against this. I just wish the BF'ers would not make such an issue out of this. It makes the non BF'ers look like bad moms. So, in my opinion? Stay out of it.

Dog Guy

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:15 p.m.

You know that an election is very near when Democrat politicians suggest that they might--in very limited situations--allow motherhood. Don't panic, they will stick to their principles.

Jon Wax

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 12:45 p.m.

"I'll have what the kid's having."] Peace


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 12:16 p.m.

I never knew this was a problem, I've seen women breastfeed their children in public since I was a kid, and I'm now 50. Not once did I ever see anyone of them get any flack over it. This is nothing more then politicians doing what they do, wasting time and money to draw attention to themselves.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:01 p.m.

The county policy will do nothing to short sighted people, and if the YMCA has a policy against eating by the pool, that policy should cover all forms of eating. I have been to lots of pools that have this policy. Again I've seen women in all areas of life and never seen anyone get upset about it, I'm talking about restaurants, parks, airports, the library. I'm sure it happens, but you cant regulate people who would make rude comments. Breastfeeding is good, I was breastfeed, my kid was breastfeed, my friends and their kids were breastfeed. Excluding a few rude comments, this isn't, and never was a problems and the county policy will not change that.

Richard Carter

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:15 p.m.

You may have a short memory or not have been around, back when a woman was told she couldn't breast feed by the pool at the YMCA... and they changed their stories a couple of times as to why (my favorite was that it violated the "no food or drink by the pool" policy, but at one point they said it was because it was distracting the lifeguards)... See, for instance,

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 12:11 p.m.

It's amazing to me that people can be against breastfeeding. I've seen it with my own eyes, though, and had a very nasty comment directed at me as I breastfed my daughter, under a blanket, within the confines of my own car, which was parked in an out of the way spot. (It's not like I was flashing my boobs around. She was covered, it was discreet. Yet some troglodyte walking past us saw fit to make a snarky comment.) Newsflash: They're breasts. They're being used for the purpose nature intended. And, above all, WE ALL HAVE THEM. It shouldn't be scary, or offensive to breastfeed. Like the post ahead of mine said, an infant is being fed. Like nature intended. It's really sad to me that this very basic thing is the cause of so much debate and controversy. It should be a non-issue and accepted outright.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:43 p.m.

WHO is Against breastfeeding? It is breastfeeding in public we are discussing.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:18 p.m.

You claim without any justification that I am opposed to breastfeeding, and that's what I take issue with. I expected that when I posted here, most people would probably disagree, and express that. My view on whether *public* breastfeeding is acceptable and under what circumstances is not absolute, and I am certainly open to the idea that I'm wrong. My tone may not have conveyed that, but looking back, I don't think I was overly aggressive or offensive. What I wasn't expecting was for people to distort my views. You feel passionately about this, which is great, but arguing instead of discussing, and shouting instead of listening do not get your point across, and probably won't give you your desired results.

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:04 p.m.

I fail to see how I'm misrepresenting your views. Sorry if you feel that way. I'm just very passionate on this subject, as a woman who's breastfed 3 children, and has gotten grief over it.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 2:02 p.m.

You're right, we probably won't see eye to eye on this, which is fine. It serves to show that this is not a black-and-white issue with a simple answer. However, I'd appreciate it if you would stop misrepresenting my beliefs and views - that's NOT ok.

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:57 p.m.

And, is it not disrespectful to deny an infant it's nutrition? To say to a mother, "Well, sorry, but you might offend someone, so you need to take that somewhere else?" In most of the rest of the world, breastfeeding is the norm. In America? We have these formula companies who have spent a ton of money making people think that their powder is far superior to nature. And, we also have a residual Puritanical attitude that tells us that a women's breasts are shameful. And, sexual. And, meant more for her husband than for her infant. It's ridiculous! Steven, you and I will never see eye to eye on this matter. It's OK. Dissention and disagreement are fine. But, I will never yield in my belief that a woman has a basic human right to feed her infant as she chooses. And, those who oppose her means are nothing but obstructionists. And, frankly, should butt out. Breastfeeding hurts NO ONE. But the benefits are amazing. And, should be recognized and embraced.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:44 p.m.

Thank you for breastfeeding your child, and doing it in an appropriate and considerate manner. I know you already know this, but whoever directed that comment toward you was clearly out of line and needs to mind his/her own business. This discussion isn't about breastfeeding in general, or considerate breastfeeding in particular, though, it's about whether people should be given license to be disrespectful to others for absolutely no reason.

Dave Bass

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 11:59 a.m.

It's about time. Being against breastfeeding in akin to being against eating a hot dog in public. These complainers need to get a life. The baby is being feed, idiots. That's what breast are for. Watch any ad or many movies and you'll see more. I don't get it. If the ads or movies censored these things out, the uproar would be unbelievable. Is this hypocrisy, or what!?


Wed, Oct 17, 2012 : 5:39 a.m.

And MamaPerry chooses the confrontational approach. Don't worry, you'll get an earful back. If you choose not to listen to anyone else, or consider anyone else's point of view, you have no right to expect anyone to listen to you or respect your wishes.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 2:56 p.m.

A baby who needs to nurse is clearly not comparable to someone eating a hot dog in public. And those who think of breastfeeding as sexual or as anything but a mother nourishing her child is a moron. I will feed my daughter when, where and how I choose. SHE is my priority. I'm not sorry if it offends anyone. Parents need to teach their children about it. And adults could have a few lessons as well. No woman should ever be made to feel ashamed for doing what nature intended. I hope I see you Steven, when I nurse in public. I will do it PROUDLY.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 12:31 a.m.

Watch any ad or movie and you would know that breasts certainly carry far more significance in today's society than feeding babies.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:49 p.m.

And eating a hot dog in public is not always appropriate. Eating hot dogs is obviously reasonable, as is breastfeeding. Eating hot dogs while in line waiting for services at a county government building is inconsiderate and rude. There is a time and place for everything.

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 12:12 p.m.

jcj, are you really equating feeding an infant to spitting? That's apples and oranges. Spitting is disgusting, spreading germs around. Breastfeeding is only affecting the mother and her infant. (Well, and any judgy McJudgerson who sees fit to be offended and ogles them as they walk past, that it.)


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 12:08 p.m.

Who is AGAINST breastfeeding? But there are some that don't feel it is appropriate in all settings. Breastfeeding is a very natural thing and so is spitting,but most people think spitting is gross when done in a public place. Having said that neither one bothers me.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 11:25 a.m.

Is this really worthy of county government's time? Is it really appropriate to breastfeed in front of strangers, especially in county government buildings where people usually aren't there by choice? In the article, one of the commissioners mentioned that he was breastfed - That is completely irrelevant to this - This isn't a debate about breastfeeding, it's a debate about being a basic, considerate human being. I was also breastfed, and guess what? My mom chose to be considerate about where she did it! I might be going off on a tangent, but one of the least desirable things about this city is the inconsiderate people who DON'T CARE about how others feel. They walk their dogs downtown instead of in their neighborhoods (and take them inside stores, to the farmers market - places everyone knows is inappropriate, rude, and possibly terrifying for people), they breastfeed anywhere and everywhere (even when a clean and private place is available, because they think everyone wants to see how beautiful and natural it is, and if someone doesn't want to see it, they must be deranged, and in that case, who cares about their feelings), they butt in on your private conversations with your family at a restaurant (no, I'm not kidding, here). It's unbelievable how inconsiderate people can be, and what little respect they have for people who's views might be a little different from their own.


Sun, Oct 14, 2012 : 2:38 p.m.

As a breastfeeding mother of a 2 month old, I just want to say that this made me so mad. I will feed my daughter when and where she is hungry. No one will tell me otherwise and those who do will get an earful. I'm expected to hide like I'm doing something wrong? Or feed my child a bottle of formula when in public because my baby eating makes people uncomfortable? Yea right! Breastfeeding is the most natural, healthy thing for a baby. God gave women breasts for that reason alone. Mu daughter doesn't know when's a good time to eat and when's not. When her belly is hungry, she lets me know. And also, you got your facts wrong. A breastfed baby, especially a newborn, is in no way on a feeding schedule. Breastmilk doesn't keep them as full because it is so easily digested. Also, they aren't eating 6 ounces like a formula fed baby. They eat until they are full which may be 1 ounce, or it may be 5. You are supposed to feed on demamd. I will never make my baby wait to eat until I find somewhere private. If it offends you, I'm not sorry. Don't look. I'm already forced to pump my milk in a bathroom at work so she can have milk to drink when I'm gone, I won't be forced in a bathroom to feed her. It is my right as a woman and a mother to feed my child how, when and where she needs it. My daughter's health is what matters to me, not other people's sensitivities. My 2 year old son and my daughter will be raised to respect and understand breastfeeding. My daughter will nurse her kids and my son will encourage and support his wife to nurse. It is a beautiful thing and people who are diagusted by it disgust me.

Laura Jones

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 6:57 p.m.

But have you seen a woman breast feed WHILE walking her dog. Now that would be something. You are out on a limb here fella. I believe the phrase you need is "keep custody of your eyes". It is very simple to not look. So don't. Like many things in life, we can overhear things not meant for us, or see things not meant for us, and we as adults simply don't listen or don't look. I believe its part of living in any society of people, large or small.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:58 p.m.

Babies tend to have regular feeding schedules, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect that under ordinary circumstances, going to a grocery store or a government office during meal time is probably not the best idea. Obviously, life doesn't always happen under ordinary circumstances. My church has a room attached to the restroom with couches for nursing mothers - I don't think it would be unreasonable to demand governmental offices dedicate space for this purpose as well. Many women who breastfeed aren't comfortable doing it in public as you are, and they have a right to a clean, safe and appropriate place for feeding. And yes, I'd be more than comfortable paying a little more in taxes to provide such a space. Again, you are confusing issues. Few people are against breastfeeding. You seem to equate favoring basic consideration for your fellow human as being opposed to breastfeeding. I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion, but it's false.

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:50 p.m.

Sorry...typing too fast. "When a baby wants to EAT" Not, "wants to it". Lousy lack of an edit button. (grumblegrumblegrumble)

Urban Sombrero

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:49 p.m.

@steven Do you have kids? Because, honestly, finding an "appropriate" place isn't always feasible. When you have a squalling baby, who's hungry, you need to feed them as soon as you can. So, which group should you risk offending: those who hate breastfeeding and think it's disgusting to do it public? Or, those who hate hearing a crying baby and will shoot you dirty looks and make nasty comments because, OMG! You're not shutting that kid up fast enough? Seriously. When a baby wants to it, it wants to eat. So, sorry if it offends delicate sensibilities, but breastfeeding wherever it's convenient should not be an issue. Yes, granted, it can be an "intimate time" between a mother and her infant. But also? It can just be a time to satiate an infant, so you can get it to sleep and go about your business. Unfortunately, few babies are willing to, or able to, realize that their hunger is an inconvenience at the time. So, if they need to be fed? FEED THEM. Anyone who is offended by that is the one being ridiculous. NOT the mother breastfeeding her child. (And, for those of you who say: "Find a public restroom", I respond thusly: SERIOUSLY? Would YOU eat in a public bathroom? Most of them are disgusting, at best. So, why should an infant be forced to feed there, just because people are afraid of a little flash of breast?)


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:40 p.m.

Perhaps providing a comfortable and private room would be more appropriate than granting an opportunity for narcissists to disrespect everyone else. Breastfeeding is an intimate moment between a mother and her child, Richard, it's not disgusting as you suggest, and it's not something the entire world needs to see as the narcissists suggest. There are appropriate times and places for everything, something people in Ann Arbor tend to forget.

Richard Carter

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:12 p.m.

And if a Mom is stuck in a county government building where she, by your definition, "[isn't] there by choice?" and has to feed her child? Kid should wait to eat so you won't have your sensibilities offended by the disgusting act of breast feeding? And hey, guess what babies do when they don't get to eat when they are hungry. Those sitting around might find the screaming and crying in themselves unpleasant.


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 11:19 a.m.

I strongly support this policy.

Jon Wax

Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 4:02 p.m.

so do bras Peace


Sat, Oct 13, 2012 : 1:22 p.m.

Your opinion. But this is an issue that will go on and on till the end of time. Bf vs non BF. Sounds like PI Hi revisited.