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Posted on Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 11:26 a.m.

Willow Run group's ad hints at Chinese connection for proposed Detroit-Windsor bridge

By Cindy Heflin

110310_Rick_Snyder.jpg

Rick Snyder

An ad produced for the Willow Run Tea Party Caucus hints that Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder's trip to China is somehow linked to possible Chinese backing for a proposed publicly owned bridge between Detroit and Windsor, Brian Dickerson writes in the Detroit Free Press today.

The ad, which can be seen on Youtube, is airing in Michigan cable markets, Dickerson and the Detroit News report.

Dennis Moore, founder of the Ypsilanti-area based Tea Party Caucus, told The News the ad was created for free by Bloomfield Hills producer Joel Ross but he didn't know who paid for the TV time.

Efforts to build a second bridge, which would be privately financed and publicly owned, between Detroit and Windsor, Canada, are opposed by Matty Maroun, who owns the Ambassador Bridge, the only current automobile crossing over the Detroit River. Many Republican legislators also oppose it.

Watch the video below.

Comments

Dan Martin

Mon, Oct 3, 2011 : 4:31 p.m.

I just listened to the narrator. That's not me, Chase. That sounds like some guy who is about sixty. I have a completely different voice than that announcer. If anyone doesn't believe me, my voice demos are at <a href="http://www.dbmvoicewerks.com" rel='nofollow'>www.dbmvoicewerks.com</a>. Feel free to take a listen. Dan Martin

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 10:42 p.m.

Mr. Granger's post immediately above provides links to the Cliff's Notes version of a study on the alleged cost overruns of large civil projects. The full study can be found at: <a href="https://mioga.minefi.gouv.fr/DB/public/controlegestion/doc/4Qualite_et_cdg/3%20Analyse%20co%FBt%20avantage%20co%FBt%20b%E9n%E9fice/Underestimating_cost_in_public_works_projects.pdf" rel='nofollow'>https://mioga.minefi.gouv.fr/DB/public/controlegestion/doc/4Qualite_et_cdg/3%20Analyse%20co%FBt%20avantage%20co%FBt%20b%E9n%E9fice/Underestimating_cost_in_public_works_projects.pdf</a> On page 285 of that study one finds the following statement: &quot;We conclude, accordingly, that the highly significant differences we found above for geographical location come from projects in the 'other geographical areas' category&quot; To translate: The cost overruns Mr. Granger cites from reading the Cliff's Notes version of the study are from projects NOT in Europe or in North America. So Mr. Granger's &quot;facts&quot; have little meaning in the context of a project that will be built in North America. Good Night and Good Luck

Ron Granger

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 5:55 p.m.

Who pays for this mega project? Who pays for the cost-overruns? According to research from Oxford University expert Bent Flyvbjerg, 90% of mega-projects go over budget. Bridge projects go over budget by an *AVERAGE* of 34%. On this $4 billion dollar bridge project, that's $1.36 billion over budget, assuming it is average. &quot;90% of mega-projects go over budget. Projections haven't improved over the past 70 years, or across 20 nations. Bridge projects go over budget by an average of 34%.&quot; That according to world wide Oxford University expert Bent Flyvbjerg. Sources: <a href="http://www.blueoregon.com/2011/03/costly-risks-crc/" rel='nofollow'>http://www.blueoregon.com/2011/03/costly-risks-crc/</a> <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-08/too-many-public-works-built-on-rosy-scenarios-virginia-postrel.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-08/too-many-public-works-built-on-rosy-scenarios-virginia-postrel.html</a> <a href="http://www.miller-mccune.com/business-economics/derailing-the-boondoggle-4334/" rel='nofollow'>http://www.miller-mccune.com/business-economics/derailing-the-boondoggle-4334/</a>

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 3:17 p.m.

OK, folks. Let's for a moment PRETEND that the proposed DRIC will be funded, fully or in part, by Chinese investors. If so, the funding will come through the sale of bonds. Bonds, unlike stocks, do not constitute ownership. They are an instrument through which money will be loaned for the bridge's construction--period. The people and institutions who bought bonds for the Mackinaw Bridge when it was build saw a significant profit, but they did not own or operate the bridge. The Mackinaw Bridge Authority owned and operated it, as it continues to do so. Were the DRIC to be built and to then encounter economic difficulties (e.g., were the bridge authority to declare bankruptcy), the bond holders would have first claim to be reimbursed from the authority's existing assets. The bondholders WOULD NOT own the bridge. But ya gotta love the xenophobic ignorance on display regarding this so-called &quot;issue&quot;, esp (and laughingly) in the Willow Run Tea Party. But it is, after all, part of the Tea Party movement. So not at all shocking. Good Night and Good Luck

Ron Granger

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 2:16 p.m.

There is a statistic that the majority of bridge and tunnel projects go dramatically over budget. Given the cost estimate of around $4 billion, it is critical that we know who will pay for the potential billions in cost overruns. I would like to see some laws passed that block Michigan taxpayers and funds from being used. This is a highly speculative venture that should be a private business. If there are so many businesses and out of state traffic that need to get across the boarder, let them pay for it. Make a business case for it. Michigan allows extremely high truck weight loads - higher than any state in the country. Our roads are terrible and they always have been. Why hasn't our state government been able to fund the road repair costs from the higher weight limits? What makes anyone think our state government should be involved in a multi-billion dollar bridge project? I don't care if China does a project. However, Chinese steel and other infrastructure projects are often not up to Western standards. Recall the lead and cadmium in toys, bad drywall, tainted petfood, etc. And that is interesting because in China, Directors and people in charge of failures are held far more accountable than in the West. People are executed, imprisoned for life mining asbestos, etc. Our system does not punish failures very harshly. It is typically only a small fine that is seen as nothing more than the cost of doing business. I wonder how we keep any firm honest on a project like this when so much money is at stake.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 6:48 p.m.

From the actual study: &quot;We conclude, accordingly, that the highly significant differences we found above for geographical location come from projects in the 'other geographical areas' category.&quot; The study makes clear that OGAs = areas NOT Europe or North America. You might actually try reading the study rather than the Cliff's Notes version. <a href="https://mioga.minefi.gouv.fr/DB/public/controlegestion/doc/4Qualite_et_cdg/3%20Analyse%20co%FBt%20avantage%20co%FBt%20b%E9n%E9fice/Underestimating_cost_in_public_works_projects.pdf" rel='nofollow'>https://mioga.minefi.gouv.fr/DB/public/controlegestion/doc/4Qualite_et_cdg/3%20Analyse%20co%FBt%20avantage%20co%FBt%20b%E9n%E9fice/Underestimating_cost_in_public_works_projects.pdf</a> GN&amp;GL

Ron Granger

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 6:09 p.m.

You challenged me to find a link. I found scholarly peer reviewed research. And multiple links to credible sources. There are many more, but the point has been well made. Rather than admit you were wrong, and apologize for implying that I could not and would not back up my assertion, you chose to change the subject and give us your personal opinion about bonds. REALLY? The burden, I believe, has now shifted to you. Support your original position with scholarly research. And if you wish to shift the discussion to another topic, please support your opinions with research. I won't be &quot;holding my breath,&quot; to use your language.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 6:07 p.m.

To build on my last: I do recall one toll project that, from inception to its opening, was deemed by the nattering nabobs of negativism to be destined to failure: The Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel. Turns out, not so much. Indeed, today they are kicking themselves for not anticipating future levels of traffic. Adding an additional stretch of trestle to go from the original 2 lanes to 4, though expensive, was a relatively easy engineering problem. Adding two more lanes to the two tunnels that are part of the complex? Not so much. Result: a four-lane highway across the 22-mile mouth of Chesapeake Bay with two one-mile long choke points at the tunnels. Oh, had just a little foresight and spent a little bit more money 50 years ago. GN&amp;GL

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 5:59 p.m.

All of your links draw back to one source--the Oxford economist. Well, I guess one person with that finding seals the deal. And, that notwithstanding, the issue he conveniently fails to address is this: Has any toll venture (which is what the DRIC will be), whether it has cost overruns, or is utilized less than expected, or both, ever failed to covers its bonds. I can't recall it ever happening in the US. EVER. And, if that's the case, his &quot;study&quot; is meaningless in the context of a project like the DRIC. GN&amp;GL

Ron Granger

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 5:52 p.m.

&quot;You can, of course, provide a link to that so-called &quot;statistic&quot;. Not a link that shows any particular project went over budget. Nope. A link that shows that a &quot;majority&quot; go over budget. A MAJORITY. A link that shows, with supporting evidence, that at least 50% +1 of all projects go over budget.&quot; -- I would prefer to phrase my response differently, since you seem to attack my character and credibility, rather than the subject. But my post would likely be removed, so I will refrain from responding in-kind. The facts are even worse than I posted. &quot;90% of mega-projects go over budget. Projections haven't improved over the past 70 years, or across 20 nations. Bridge projects go over budget by an average of 34%.&quot; That according to world wide Oxford University expert Bent Flyvbjerg. Got it? 90% go over budget. And bridges are over budget by an AVERAGE of 34%. So if this project is $4 billion, that's $1.3 billion over budget. <a href="http://www.blueoregon.com/2011/03/costly-risks-crc/" rel='nofollow'>http://www.blueoregon.com/2011/03/costly-risks-crc/</a> <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-08/too-many-public-works-built-on-rosy-scenarios-virginia-postrel.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-08/too-many-public-works-built-on-rosy-scenarios-virginia-postrel.html</a> <a href="http://www.miller-mccune.com/business-economics/derailing-the-boondoggle-4334/" rel='nofollow'>http://www.miller-mccune.com/business-economics/derailing-the-boondoggle-4334/</a>

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 3 p.m.

&quot;There is a statistic that the majority of bridge and tunnel projects go dramatically over budget.&quot; Really???? You can, of course, provide a link to that so-called &quot;statistic&quot;. Not a link that shows any particular project went over budget. Nope. A link that shows that a &quot;majority&quot; go over budget. A MAJORITY. A link that shows, with supporting evidence, that at least 50% +1 of all projects go over budget. Don't worry. We won't be holding our breaths. Good Night and Good Luck

mimosa

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 1:20 p.m.

I know of someone who recently worked on a project in China, helping to build custom gates for a house. The quality of steel was so bad they had to look elsewhere in China for better steel. There is very little quality control going on there. This should also be a major concern along with others!

WonderWoman

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 12:17 p.m.

Regarding Ingersoll's comments: ..&quot;economics of the bridge and the transportation industry...&quot; &quot;...transportation economics, and multi-national politics are not his level of expertise....&quot; Your comments indicate you agree that, clearly China owns us. Yes, we're living in a global economy, but American companies pay taxes that help repair roads, pay police and fire protection services, etc... and put American engineers and professionals to work. OUR COLLEGE GRADUATES CANNOT FIND JOBS. Didn't American companies build the Ambassador Bridge, the Mackinac Bridge, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge , etc.??? Before the 2nd bridge is even built, it's handed over to the Chinese?!?

Lac Court Orilles

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 11:18 a.m.

Possibly Matty is behind the Willow Run Tea Party advertisement, but Snyderman is absolutely in bed with the Chinese. Snyder made his millions by selling our technology to the Chinese. Why should he change now that he is in control of all of us with a totally Republican government here in Michigan that rubber stamps anything that his heart may desire. Snyderman represents the Chinese more than he does me!

alterego

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 8:50 p.m.

As long as it provides jobs here, it shouldn't matter where the money comes from. If you look hard enough, you can find issue with any country, industry, or political organization.

Alan Goldsmith

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 7:40 p.m.

A Blast from the past: <a href="http://annarbor.com/elections/voter_guide/1/michigan-house-district-53/chase-ingersoll/">http://annarbor.com/elections/voter_guide/1/michigan-house-district-53/chase-ingersoll/</a>

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 8:07 p.m.

ROFL!!! Thanks, Alan. That's absolutely priceless. Good Night and Good Luck

snapshot

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 7:32 p.m.

let's just get a new public brdge built. It's the right thing to do.

Alan Goldsmith

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 7:31 p.m.

&quot;I listen to WAAM daily and Dan Martin WAAM News Director...&quot; Lol, I thought that station shut down years ago? Wow...an AM radio station. Lol. Welcome to 1950...

Alan Goldsmith

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 7:29 p.m.

&quot;As Director of the Willow Run Tea Party, Dennis Moore was given an audience with Gov Snyder ...&quot; Surprise. I think this scares me more than threats of the Chinese building a bridge.

Stephen Landes

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 6:27 p.m.

As a conservative Republican I find ads such as this and those that promote them to be embarrassing. Not only are they wrong, but they serve only to support a person who is demonstrating the worts monopolist agenda. Mr. Maroun is no conservative icon -- he is a monopolist and we need not support that kind of behavior. I identify his actions opposing the NITC bridge as unnecessary due to current traffic flow while working hard to build his own additional span as all designed to protect his monopoly on bridge traffic across the border at Detroit. As far as the Tea Party being in support of this hogwash I can only say that some people can be hoodwinked no matter what their otherwise admirable qualities.

Chase Ingersoll

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 6:24 p.m.

THE WAAM 1600 Connection: I listen to WAAM daily and Dan Martin WAAM News Director is the person doing the voice over on the Bridge Commercial. WAAM will let Moore and anyone else on the air between 4:00 pm and 6:00 pm if they want to bash the Chinese and the DRIC. So that two hour period is an echo chamber of one perspective which is aptly characterized as: <a href="http://reason.com/archives/2011/08/23/china-derangement-syndrome" rel='nofollow'>http://reason.com/archives/2011/08/23/china-derangement-syndrome</a> FOLLOW THE MONEY The owners of the Ambassador Bridge are out there throwing around hundreds of thousands of dollars or more to fight the DRIC. WAAM and any of the other media outlets who will be paid to run these commercials will benefit from the debate, no matter if the debate is best characterized by a complete mis-characterization of the most relevant facts., on both sides. Americans For Prosperity is another group that has fallen into this complex. On one hand they are correct about the attempt to add pork to the DRIC bill, and the garbage that will be written into the bill, but they are woefully ill informed about the economics of the project. When I saw the AFP presentation (about a week ago) I walked out, because they were clueless about the economics of the bridge and the transportation industry and didn't really seem like they appreciated those of us from the GOP with experience on that issue who could have informed them. They appeared to be just fine having their own echo chamber. I suspect that the DRIC will be built - because the manufacturing, retailer and transportation industry want it, because it will save them time and money, and the most of the discussion going on right now is really a Kabuki Theater, financed by the monopoly profits of the Ambassador Bridge.

Dan Martin

Mon, Oct 3, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.

That's not me. I sound nothing like that announcer. Check it out. My voice demos are at <a href="http://www.dbmvoicewerks.com" rel='nofollow'>www.dbmvoicewerks.com</a>. Feel free to take a listen.

Chase Ingersoll

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 6:05 p.m.

THE CHINA ISSUE: U of M has students in the engineering colleges whose tuition is very likely paid for by the Chinese Government (Chinese Military). Ex Professor Kaufman raised this issue with M.S. Coleman and it is an ongoing conflict as Kaufman pressed an FBI investigation and for Congressional hearings. Kaufman and another professor presented their information to the Willow Run Tea Party last fall. As Director of the Willow Run Tea Party, Dennis Moore was given an audience with Gov Snyder and asked Snyder if Chinese Companies could bid on building the bridge. Snyder looked over at an aide who nodded and so Snyder confirmed Moore's &quot;suspicion&quot;. But the full characterization is that any qualified international company is going to be able to bid on building such a project. IT'S AN INTERNATIONAL PROJECT. China, which has been building more infrastructure than any country in the world over the last couple of decades and which now has Chinese construction companies building most of the infrastructure in Africa, it only stands to reason that they would have qualified companies and...........cash reserves to purchase the bonds which would finance the bridge project. I've personally told Dennis Moore and Kaufman that they lack perspective on all of this and remind me of the type that supported the fighting of a S.E. Asian proxy war - Viet Nam and that both are basically frustrated old men that are beyond their prime and resentful of those in my generation who they think &quot;don't get it&quot; even though we have a much broader base of experiences with people from around the world and a level of education, specific in a couple of disciplines that allows us to better analyze situations that are dynamic and multi-dimentional. Moore is a dry-waller. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but transportation economics, and multi-national politics are not his level of expertise. Others who are less confrontational have simply responded to Moore's alleg

Chase Ingersoll

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 5:50 p.m.

DIsclosure: I'm on the Republican Executive Committee for Washtenaw County and have attended numerous Tea Party Meetings. This is a hotly debated issue within both of those groups in Washtenaw County. I sat back at a years worth of various meetings and listened to the PRO and CON on the DRIC Bridge Project and asked a number of questions of the various speakers before I formed specific opinions which are as follows: 1. Connecting the Canadian and US interstate systems with a modern crossing, would reduce travel times, reduce transportation costs, and the cost of goods to consumers, around the United States and Canada; 2. In the present situation, the government is enabling a private monopoly to sit on top of the commercial transport between Detroit and the industrial SW Ontario region. 3. Because the bridge crosses an international border and is really an extension of the Interstate systems, that requires Federal Border Control - it should be owned and managed like the Interstate system AND SHOULD BE PAID FOR BY FEDERAL DOLLARS!!! 4. The objection to a DRIC bill that requires the state tax payer to finance &quot;community development&quot; pork on top of the actual cost of the bridge is a valid objection to the bill. We can't hold economic development that benefits every consumer and producer of goods, hostage to a &quot;social services tax&quot; that will primarily benefit the state bureaucracy/government unions, even though they will and are screaming very loudly. 5. The other objection to a DRIC bill that will sneak in eminent domain by &quot;public private partnerships&quot; for light rail projects around the state such as Brighton to Ann Arbor, is another valid objection. ....I'm limited to a specified number of characters, so I'll discuss the China Connection in my next comment...

trespass

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 5:37 p.m.

The bridge will be built and run by a &quot;concessioner&quot;. I asked the Lt. Governor, Brian Calley, if China could be the concessioner. He said &quot;yes&quot;. Iknow that the Willow Run Tea Party asked Governor Snyder the same question and he said &quot;yes&quot;. If Governor Snyder will not assure Michigan taxpayers that the bridge will be built and operated by an American company, then that is one more reason to oppose it.

Angry Redneck

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 11:54 p.m.

Thank you, Mr. Moroun.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 5:23 p.m.

I'm waiting to hear that the Trilateral Commission is behind the proposed new bridge. Good Night and Good Luck

Alan Goldsmith

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 5:05 p.m.

Willow Run Tea Party? Now THAT'S exactly where I look when I want rational, intelligent political insight. Lol.

golfer

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 4:36 p.m.

why not the us government does it. we owe them more than we can ever pay them back. i wish i had a credit card like we borrow money. then do not worry about ever paying it back because i can not do it.

xmo

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 4:29 p.m.

This story is just a rumor that happen to get on television as an ad. Is it real No, is their evidence, NO. It is just an FYI! &quot;&quot;I didn't say I had evidence,&quot; Moore said. &quot;It's a suspicion.&quot;&quot; I guess this an example of the dumbing down of America

Cash

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 4:27 p.m.

I think we all can figure out who paid for the ad. This bridge is obviously a HUGE moneymaker. Look at how much he is willing to spend to fight government ownership. The more ads I see with Matty desperately trying to keep his cash cow, the more I am in favor of government ownership, Matty is really advertising the value of this bridge....makes me want ownership even more.

Ron Granger

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 4:15 p.m.

Rick Snyder wants you to buy his business buddies a bridge. If there is a business case for a bridge, then it should all be private. Don't put taxpayers on the hook for the vast sums of money that will be made and spent on this. There is no freelunch.

Ron Granger

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 2:09 p.m.

johnnya2, this is an international bridge, not a mere road. It isn't something that state residents should be forced to pay for. Few state residents cross the current bridge. This is a $4+ billion dollar project. We need to know who will pay for it, especially if it goes over budget by 50%. Most bridge and tunnel projects go dramatically over budget.

johnnya2

Fri, Sep 30, 2011 : 2:44 a.m.

How ridiculous. Can a business case be made for a road? a fire department? a police officer? Border patrol? A bridge which is just a road over something SHOULD be the business of the government. A private business should not be allowed to have a monopoly on the busiest border crossing in the country.

Peregrine

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 4:07 p.m.

More dishonesty from America's right wing.

jcj

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 11:17 p.m.

Not only &quot;seriously foolish&quot;. But a very dishonest comment.

Bogie

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 10:22 p.m.

Really? I think it would be seriously foolish to think only right wing people are dishonest.

Tom Teague

Thu, Sep 29, 2011 : 3:59 p.m.

The Politician's Handbook, Lesson 27: Whenever the facts aren't known, employ the politics of conflation. That leads to some fascinating, but completely invalid, syllogisms: Rick Snyder supports a public bridge, Rick Snyder is going to China, therefore Rick Snyder is about to ask China for help in building the bridge. OR, Chinese firms are making bridge components for a California bridge, Rick Snyder is going to China, therefore Rick Snyder is going to cut a deal for China to make components for a new bridge to Windsor.