Peregrine

Tue, Sep 1, 2009 : 9:27 a.m.

@RonAnnArbor: I have found some research that should address your concerns regarding the reduction in accidents and injuries resulting from people avoiding the roundabouts. Here is an article (PDF) from the American Journal of Public Health. The researchers studied before and after data from 24 intersections in 8 American states that changed from an intersection controlled by either a traffic light or stop sign to a modern roundabout. The accident rates dropped. But as you'll see, the traffic volume either stayed the same or increased for 23 of the 24 intersections. So I think it's clear modern roundabouts measurably increase safety, even though these researchers did not look at alternative routes that avoid the roundabout, as you suggested. If you want to maintain a self-selection type of argument, you'd have to argue that safer drivers are attracted to modern roundabouts and less safe drivers are repelled by modern roundabouts.

Peregrine

Mon, Aug 31, 2009 : 11:20 p.m.

Tom Vanderbilt, author of Traffic: Why We Drive the Way We Do (and What It Says About Us) wrote an article in Slate discussing the reasons for the modern roundabout and the typical pattern of reactions to them (initial fear and dislike transitioning to being in favor of).

merckrx

Mon, Aug 31, 2009 : 1:44 a.m.

There are a couple of "roundabouts" in the other Maple Road (in West Bloomfield / Oakland county). They are constructed along Drake/Maple; Farmington/Maple and Farmington/14 Mile Road. Traffic was always backed up in this area with the traditional intersection and traffic light. Hopefully new studies by SEMCOG will help to monitor the effectiveness of these newly constructed roundabouts.

merckrx

Mon, Aug 31, 2009 : 1:34 a.m.

The sudden rise of constructing "roundabouts" in southeast Michigan has been going on for a few years now. It appears that most readers here are afraid of change, not used to roundabouts, or just not willing to give it a chance. Other parts of the United States has embraced this, and hasn't resulted in "deconstruction" back to the traditional intersection. If you think about it, most visitors and tourists to Michigan find our infamous "Michigan left" turn confusing. But to Michigan residents, its not a big deal. So I think that roundabouts take time to get used to.

Wguru

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 7:47 p.m.

Here's a link to Judy McGovern's 2-9-09 Ann Arbor News blog on roundabouts: http://blog.mlive.com/judy_mcgovern/2009/02/some_data_for_ann_arbor_rounda.html (Hope to see background links like this on some AA.com stories for community continuity.)

Peregrine

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 2:18 p.m.

@Theo212: You are too good. Now I'm convinced you're mocking certain views and have mastered the art so well that half the time people (and falcons) think you're serious.

Theo212

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 12:07 p.m.

Roundabouts are dumb. They leave us drivers glum. Eliminate these And our moods will increase By a healthy sum! -Theo Freeman '09 It's not too late, my dear readers. Lobby your congress people, have sit-ins on the White House lawn! Change? NO, WE CAN'T!!!

AAJoker

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 11:12 a.m.

Proven to me again this morning, the only flaw in these round-a-bouts is a stupid driver. At 7am, with no traffic at all in the round-a-bout the driver ahead of me stops at the yield sign. It is drivers like this, who need to get off the phone and drive, cause the confusion around these circles. I stand by what I say, I love these circles! BTW to the scooter driver, glad to head you were OK in this accident! One unclear item on these circles is the crossing of pedestrians as the cars have a yield sign as does the pedestrian, causing the old stop and start routine. I personally stop 10'+ back from the road when I am walking through here in order to not confuse the drivers.

Sally

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 11:11 a.m.

Oh my gosh, Theo212. Is it now un-American to CHANGE? That's astonishing (your statement, that is).

63Townie

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 11:06 a.m.

People are confused by the new roundabout at Nixon and Huron Parkway. I've seen people not yield when they should, look right and not left to enter, not yield to pedestrians, etc. I still have to wait the same amount of time to navigate the intersection, and I still struggle to make a left-hand tuen out of Kroger's at peak traffic flow times. I fail to see how anyone can call this an improvement.

AccruedInterest

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 11:05 a.m.

P: Thanks for the link to the IIHS. Apparently the 40% reduction was to be expected. From the 2005 report, Continued Reliance on Traffic Signals: The Cost of Missed Opportunities to Improve Traffic Flow and Safety at Urban Intersections, following the conversion of 23 intersections to roundabouts from either stop signs or traffic signals found that crashes of all severities were reduced by 40 percent and injury crashes were reduced by 80 percent. However, IIHS might trumpet safety over other competing interests Women's issues in highway safety: a summary of the literature is another report. B: subtlety, my friend.

Theo212

Fri, Aug 28, 2009 : 8:58 a.m.

They should just build those dumb roundabouts TO THE SIDE of the nice, normal, American intersection. Then, anyone who wants to risk their life can choose to go through that worthless thing while all of us law-abiding normal citizens will simply remain safe at our beloved stop sign and/or traffic light. Stuff shouldn't be messed with. It should just remain as is. What could people possibly be thinking?

Tom

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 9:31 p.m.

This roundabout thread is a good metaphor for the current national health care debate. Logic verses ignorance and fearmongering.

Mike D.

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 7:11 p.m.

Why are roundabouts necessary? Everyone knows the world is flat and anything round is evil. In all seriousness, they aren't that hard. I love driving down Maple and not having to stop for lights all the way from the river to Miller. Would all of you roundabout haters rather be sitting at red lights, wasting time and belching pollutants from your SUVs?

Alan Benard

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 6:57 p.m.

Dear Great Censor: So, a post attacking me and the paper stays, and mine attacking the other poster and the paper doesn't? I guess it's your decision to be radically unfair, enjoy it.

Peregrine

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 4:20 p.m.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety and the Highway Loss Data Institute are "independent, nonprofit, scientific, and educational" organizations whose purpose is "reducing the losses... from crashes". Both organizations are "wholly supported by auto insurers." Let's be clear -- auto insurers pay money when property is damaged and when people are injured or killed. They have a clear economic incentive to minimize crashes on top of any moral incentives. What do they think? They support modern roundabouts.

essene

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 3:42 p.m.

Two or three accidents at the roundabouts? Well, three expensive overhead lights have been knocked down already at the roundabouts on North Maple. I would expect that there have been many more than 2-3 accidents there. No matter what the signs indicate, people still stop in the roundabout or run through the yield signs making cars in the roundabouts slam on their brakes. The same thing happened when people came off the freeway exits before the roundabouts were in place. Wild drivers have been driving up over the center concrete, I suspect on purpose. We live only two short blocks from them and hear a lot of racing engines at night from that direction. There will eventually be some t-bone accidents here. By the way, traffic should have increased this summer due to the closure on Huron River Drive.

AccruedInterest

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 3:19 p.m.

Wow 40% drop. Im impressedwait, the baseline was 14 accidents. Not so impressedmaybe 3 less bad weather days. Benard: Taking your cue from AA.com and afraid to create anything, just a compiler others thoughts? Ron: Great post. Possible evidence of the secret cabal: Roundabouts are more expensive to build. If construction companies fund the research, the studies will find them saferoops, my tinfoil hat just fell off.

klatte

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 2:12 p.m.

I love "statistics are meaningless." No they aren't, anecdotes are.

cd_booth

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 1:40 p.m.

Anybody who doesn't like roundabouts or thinks that they are unsafe hasn't bothered to learn how to use them, which is simple. You see that big sign that says "Yield", well that's all there is to it! I went to Western right after they installed one in 2004 at the busiest part of main campus and it worked wonders to increase traffic flow and decrease the number of accidents. Any accidents that do occur are from those that don't know what yield means.

Gloriagirl

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 12:59 p.m.

I suggest all the whiners look up for a moment from their texting to understand whats ahead. Roundabouts are a very green, efficient and safe solution to managing traffic. There are many statistics to support the decision to install them.

Alan Benard

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 12:29 p.m.

Evidence of Michigan's decline into they abyss:"Change is ridiculous.""But that is like saying if airplanes had to taxi from one city to the next the death toll would go down!""Yield does not mean stop!" Brave candles lit in the inky black of ignorance:"I don't understand the complaints about the center of the roundabout being too high to see over. You have no need to see over the center in a roundabout. All you need to see is the traffic coming around the near quarter of the circle. If there isn't traffic coming you can merge in.""People who oppose roundabouts or anything new seem to think they know more than the experts who study such things for years. They also probably believe the moon landings were faked and we are being invaded by aliens.""Anecdotal arguments are awesome. Here's another one: I have seen several fender-benders at intersections around town, therefore intersections are bad and should be replaced with roundabouts. Sound dumb? That's because it is."

Peregrine

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 12:23 p.m.

I think the roundabouts are great. Maybe they should keep the weeds high until people get the point that that's not where they should be looking! I can't tell whether Theo212 is serious or whether s/he's mocking a certain segment of our population. America is not about having roundabouts? Go back to Europe? Change is dumb? That's some funny stuff! Whether you're serious or joking, Theo212, I hope you're a regular contributor to AnnArbor.com!

Warbler

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 11:48 a.m.

@matthewtoo - Whoa! What driving school did you go to that taught you Yield does not mean stop? Yield means you YIELD to oncoming traffic. If you must stop because of the oncoming traffic, then so be it. You stop! Fortunately, here in Ann Arbor, you don't need to stop very often at our wonderful roundabouts. @Jeff S - Gald you're OK.

Jeff S

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 11:32 a.m.

@AAJoker, the accident between the scooter and the car was because the idiot went right through his yield sign getting off m14 (even though there was a line of cars waiting in the other lane). I guess he didn't know what yield means. I try to avoid those roundabouts during rush hour because I was the one on the scooter. Thankfully I walked away banged up with a cell phone bruise, and a totaled scooter.

a2grateful

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 11:02 a.m.

"Yield does not mean stop!"... Actually, in some cases, yield does mean stop. : )

Matthewtoo

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:55 a.m.

Yield does not mean stop!

Karl

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:53 a.m.

ALL you need to know about roundabouts, in order: 1. Slow to the speed limit 2. Yield to the left 3. Stay in your lane. If you are a driver who is capable of doing those three things, preferably at the same time, then you are perfectly capable of negotiating a roundabout. Then you, like other good drivers, will be rewarded with quicker driving times, and less danger of being t-boned by some jackass who blows a stop sign.

Theo212

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:49 a.m.

If you like roundabouts, then PLEASE go back to Europe. We Americans love our traffic lights and stop signs. Like I said, CHANGE IS DUMB!

AAJoker

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:44 a.m.

As someone who drives the Skyline circles several times a day: 1. The tall grass earlier this year was actually nice, it did not impair viewing the people that you would need to yield to. If you are looking all the way across the circle you are hesitating too long and impairing traffic. 2. The are not 5 - 10 ambulances at these circles each day, in fact I have NEVER seem a cop, firetruck or ambulance at these circles. I have only every one seen a "post accident" scene and this was between a moped and a car, which likely would have happened anyways as people don't pay adequate attention to mopeds and bikes. 3. The only issue with these circles are stupid drivers. I have seen people turn left (never mind all the signage!), probably because mapquest told the to! 4. No one is avoiding the Skyline round-a-bouts, the traffic flow is the same as before they were installed + the high school traffic. I do like the idea of getting ride of the lane line, also the "by pass on the traffic circle near Hyundai is interesting.

eelliott

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:43 a.m.

I think round abouts are fabulously efficient and fun to drive through!! No more waiting for lights to change and of course the risk of being t-boned by someone running a red at 35 miles/hour or more is pretty much reduced to a possible dent to the bumpers or sides like in a parking lot.

a2grateful

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:23 a.m.

Skyline roundabouts are OK, as long as plantings are mowed.... Earlier this summer, vegetation was so high, you couldn't see traffic in oncoming circles.... I recall an inter-governmental dispute regarding responsibility for keeping vegetation down.... Details like this should be considered before construction.

Chris

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:11 a.m.

Love the roundabouts. As Sally said, stick to the right and pay attention to traffic and go around if you miss your exit. I really like how they cut down on traffic lights and waiting.

John Hritz

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10:08 a.m.

@patrick I agree. Traffic counts would improve the data. If total traffic has dropped through this interchange that would explain the reduction in accidents. That said, traffic volume has probably increased due to Skyline being open.

aareader

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 10 a.m.

Change is always hard to handle.. but if traffic is safer in the long run and is able to keep moving to reduce congestion then roundabouts are a winner with me. I have used the roundabouts in Brighton and after a couple of times to see how they are laid out they do work.

Sally

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 9:49 a.m.

I easily grew accustomed to roundabouts when I lived in Europe many years ago. The ones by Skyline high have sometimes confused me because there are SO MANY signs telling me what to do. Seems as if they are "overdirecting" drivers. Three rules, 1) Always to to the right 2) Always yield to someone who is already in the traffic flow 3) Go to the right until you get to where you want to get off--and if you miss it, go around again!

Rod Johnson

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 9:37 a.m.

Anecdotal arguments are awesome. Here's another one: I have seen several fender-benders at intersections around town, therefore intersections are bad and should be replaced with roundabouts. Sound dumb? That's because it is. Traffic engineers aren't perfect, but they are empirical, and they do lots of studies about things like this, and they all confirm that people initially dislike them but come around once they realize that traffic moves more smoothly and safely. That's what's happening at our roundabouts, check it out. As for 5 to 10 emergency responder incidents at the Skyline roundabouts per day... that's easily checked out, and A2.com could do that. I've been using those roundabouts intensively the last few weeks, however, and haven't seen any evidence of such mayhem, so I'm skeptical. I have seen some confusion and uncertainty, especially people who seem unclear on the meaning of yield signs. But that will pass as people get used to them.

Dylan

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 9:24 a.m.

Having lived in another country where roundabouts are common, I think the real problem here is just a lack of familiarity. It's ridiculous for the road commission to just expect people to figure them out. There are always going to be new drivers, and people visiting ann arbor for the first time who will run into a roundabout directly off the highway - not a good plan. I'm all for them personally, I think they really do help traffic flow and safety, but that's in a society where everyone is familiar with them and knows how they operate. There needs to be more done to educate the drivers of the region on how to handle roundabouts, it DEFINITELY should be made part of driver's ed classes.

AlfaElan

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 9:10 a.m.

I don't understand the complaints about the center of the roundabout being too high to see over. You have no need to see over the center in a roundabout. All you need to see is the traffic coming around the near quarter of the circle. If there isn't traffic coming you can merge in. As for the ones complaining about missing the exit of a roundabout. It takes less gas to go around again than it would to sit stopped for a light. As for the people complaining the roundabouts are too tight. They look too tight on purpose. People perceive them to be tighter than they are so they slow down more than they really need to. while I haven't taken any of the local roundabouts in one of my fun cars they are perfectly acceptable in the family tank.

ChrisW

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 9:05 a.m.

The signage at the Maple roundabout is absolutely horrible. Just fixing that would go a long way to eliminating complaints.

Ms. Shackleford

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 9:05 a.m.

Roger- You make a great point. I do not like the roundabouts in Howell, but the ones by Skyline are easier to navigate. I have seen people confused by the two lanes, however. One lady almost ran into me, and then almost ran into the guy behind me. The man behind me was honking at her and yelling and screaming. The poor lady was confused--I think if they followed your suggestion and made it one larger lane, it would be so much better!

Wguru

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 8:49 a.m.

The roundabouts at Lee Road in Brighton are too small and too close together. The ones at Skyline and Maple Road are better. As I learned from a transportation engineer/urban planner, both sets of roundabouts could be improved by taking out the lane markers and associated signage. There's no reason to be two abreast in those roundabouts. Larger vehicles often need more than one lane to negotiate the turns. But more importantly, it's crazy to expect people to pay attention to lane markers, signs explaining lanes, AND still see other vehicles and where they want to go. Taking out the lane markers and the extraneous signage allows (forces) people to take in the whole view and figure out what to do... something akin to what people do naturally when they're walking through a hallway junction. (The speed limit and yield signs should stay, however.)

jcj

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 8:28 a.m.

Aaman You are probably one of the sheep that believes that a government run health care would work! Or you make your living off government grants and freebees. We here in Ann Arbor are familiar with "expert" studies at the tax payers expense. We have one for everything! But not many would say anything positive comes out of most of these studies. It does not take a rocket scientist to know that the accidents would be less severe. But that is like saying if airplanes had to taxi from one city to the next the death toll would go down!

rkb0929

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 8:12 a.m.

I detest the roundabouts! Almost got hit 3 times in one week near Skyline when people were coming off the expressway and not slowing down. And it was difficult to even see from one side to the other because of all the high weeds.....a kid could get lost in them. A couple days later I saw one single guy with a weed whipper making a stab at it and haven't been back there to see if he actually made any progress.....fortunately I do not live near there or have to go there often. The ones up off 23 are really bad, ESPECIALLY if you try to get from Pinckney across to the shopping center and have to go thru two or three of them. IF I didn't have a second person in my car instructing me where to go, I couldn't imagine maneuvering it alone! I would RATHER see similar traffic signals to what I see the few times I'm over in the Wayne County area. If you are in a left turn lane, they they have a signal flashing and if the oncoming traffic is clear you can go before your green light to go! And in AA if they made the traffic signals so you didn't have to keep sitting at a light when the there was no other traffic then people could feel better about that.....that happens frequently.....I say stop spending money to build more of these, just improve what we currently have to use.

Marvin Face

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 8:09 a.m.

The roundabouts are absolutely safer than four-way stop intersections. If you think the Brighton or Maple roundabouts are confusing, you need to see the Magic Roundabout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swindon_Magic_Roundabout_eng.svg

Barb

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 8:08 a.m.

Everyone one seems to be so worried about the driving Skyline students and roundabouts. My guess is they learn to handle them faster than everyone else.

A Pretty Ann Arbor

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 8:04 a.m.

I wonder how much that number is going to go up after the "driving students" start at Skyline. This roundabout isn't too bad, hate the one in Brighton...a couple of times during busy times I have had to go around a couple times to get to where I wanted. Last night in the dark, I missed which lane to be in to get back on 23....ended up going down to the next on ramp to the highway.

theodynus

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 7:59 a.m.

@macjont: you're confusing roundabouts and rotaries/traffic circles as on the east coast. The point is that they're constructed so that traffic can't drive fast. That's the point. The east coast version are significantly more dangerous. I am, however, a little miffed that semcog didn't include before and after traffic counts. It is possible that the per vehicle accident rate went up temporarily as people got used to them. Accident severity did decrease though which is a sign they're working as intended. If you can't figure out how to use a roundabout, you're too old to drive.

macjont

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 7:32 a.m.

Low speed? Yes, assuming drivers decide to drive slowly. It is a very confusing situation, however, when drivers seem to be testing the upper speed limit of their vehicles while driving around a (too) tightly constructed circular road. My experience with "roundabouts" is from a different area, and they were constructed much differently than the monstrosities we are seeing in Ann Arbor.

Barb

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 7:28 a.m.

DebbieDora, SEMCOG is the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments and has been around for 40 years. I thought this article was very informative and helps explain *why* roundabouts are becoming more common. I personally think they're great. I just wish more people were willing to learn to use them and realize their potential.

Josh Budde

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 7:14 a.m.

The roundabouts are wonderful for traffic flow as well. I for one can't wait for the roundabouts at 23 and Geddes to be installed, as well as the one in front of Concordia. That stretch of road is subjected to a crushing amount of traffic before business hours and after people are leaving for work. The backups in that area can be epic. Now, when they first put the roundabouts out in Brighton I had some misgivings. Like most people in the United States, I had never encountered one outside of Europe and had most certainly never navigated a vehicle through one. However, by not being an idiot and observing how traffic was flowing I was able to quickly zip through all three roundabouts. As an aside on the Brighton roundabouts, my supervisor lives on the south side of Brighton and has to use the exit by the new mall everyday on his way home. Prior to the installation of the roundabouts he reported that during peak traffic times, the line to get off the expressway would be backed up off the on ramp and into the normal flow of traffic on 23N. After the roundabout was installed he reports that traffic flows smoothly through those intersections regardless of the volume.

aaman

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 7:03 a.m.

People who oppose roundabouts or anything new seem to think they know more than the experts who study such things for years. They also probably believe the moon landings were faked and we are being invaded by aliens. If the roundabouts are a bad idea just exactly why are they being built? Is there some vast conspiracy to just annoy people or is there someone out there making a lot of money on them? I say let the people who cannot manage to navigate roundabouts (which have been used in other countries for decades) drive on the other side streets. At least they won't suddenly come to a halt in the middle of the roundabout and cause delays for those of us who adapt to new safer ways of driving.

Theo212

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 6:59 a.m.

Change is ridiculous. America is all about NOT having those dumb roundabouts. If they want to be safe, install those sky cable cars like they have at Cedar Point. Yes, those ones in Brighton need to get torn down. They are confusing and DANGEROUS!!!

David Martel

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 6:42 a.m.

At first I didn't like the roundabouts that were put in near Skyline. But, it was just that I wasn't used to them, nor were other people. Now I appreciate the fact that I don't have to sit at a traffic light waiting and waiting, while nobody is coming in the other direction (with the high school their, I doubt these would have been stop signs, had they not been roundabouts). Traffic now seems to go more smoothly and flows at a constant pace. I like them, and I think that we just have to get over the resistance to change. I spent time on the north shore of Boston where roundabouts are all around and have been for a long time. I never heard anybody complaining about those.

DebbieDora2

Thu, Aug 27, 2009 : 5:39 a.m.

According to the guide of "Driving a Roundbout" shouldn't those be available Dan to drivers in pamphlet form? How did you comply you statistics? I live in Skyline area I hear everyday 5 to someones 10 or more ambulances and firetrucks policeheading right in that area.Why would a parent or people complian lets see? would it be torn down? NO would comp[laining do any good? NO. People are unfamilare with Round bouts and it should be added to driver safety.SEMCOG what do they do? When you write an article you need it to be understandle by all ages.