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Posted on Thu, Feb 11, 2010 : 9:42 p.m.

Ann Arbor school board wants to lure back students from charter schools, other districts

By David Jesse

Each year, about 1,300 students who live in the Ann Arbor school district’s boundaries choose to go to another traditional school district or charter school.

At $9,490 a student in state funding, that's $12.3 million in potential revenues the Ann Arbor district isn't getting.

The key to luring those kids back to Ann Arbor schools is offering more choices for them, Washtenaw Intermediate School District Superintendent Bill Miller told an Ann Arbor school board committee meeting Thursday night.

Miller was at the meeting at the invitation of board members, who wanted to see statistics about where the students who live inside the district's attendance boundaries attend school.

Classroom.jpg

The Ann Arbor school board would like to bring back some of the students within the district who attend charter and other schools.

Getting some those students back is a priority because of the money attached. The state pays each school district and charter school a set amount per student in state aid, and that money makes up the bulk of a school district’s revenue.

Ann Arbor is facing a budget deficit of about $20 million over this school year and next year.

The district currently has more than 16,000 students.

In the fall of 2009, a total of 208 Ann Arbor district children went to another traditional school district. Slightly more than 80 went to the Ypsilanti school district, and about 40 went Milan schools.

If a district is schools of choice, students from neighboring districts can attend there. Ypsilanti and Milan are completely open districts, while several other local school districts - like Saline - offer targeted schools of choice at certain grades or at certain buildings.

Another 1,027 students who live within the Ann Arbor school district opted for local charter schools, Miller said. That number is largest at the elementary school level and tapers down from there, largely because there aren’t many charter high schools in the area.

After Miller finished presenting the data, the discussion among the board members turned to reasons why people choose other schools - especially charter schools - over Ann Arbor.

"I think we should take the phenomenon of charter schools very seriously," school board member Glenn Nelson said. "We need to figure out why students are chosing them."

Miller said many parents like smaller learning communities, better customer service like a certain style of learning and teaching, or choose for cultural reasons.

Miller said in the current political environment, he expects more charter schools to open in the area.

Ann Arbor currently isn’t a schools of choice district, but Superintendent Todd Roberts has proposed the district open 150 seats, some in elementary grades and some in middle school.

As the committee meeting wound down, board members discussed possibly having different elementary schools in district with different themes, or creating schools within schools.

No decisions were made Thursday night.

David Jesse covers K-12 education for AnnArbor.com. He can be reached at davidjesse@annarbor.com or at 734-623-2534.

Comments

jns131

Mon, Feb 15, 2010 : 2:03 p.m.

This is reason why we chose charter. All day K. Research has shown children do better in an all day K environment then in a half day K. We kept ours in a charter because of the problems of classroom discipline. The only reason ours is in Ann Arbor is because there is no hi school charter that I know of. Plus once she hits 10th grade she can enter the EMU college program and grad from there. She finds school easy and boring. She will be taking Geometry next year because she zips thru math in a minute. As for one poster the engineer? Go back to school and get your masters in education. They always need hi school math teachers. I totally agree with no gifted programs in Ann Arbor.

Julie

Mon, Feb 15, 2010 : 1:23 p.m.

Precisely why we should be looking to convert an East side school into another magnet, perhaps an Open East, or similar.

Biscuithead

Mon, Feb 15, 2010 : 10:28 a.m.

@aataxpayer -- AAO is on our list, but, like CHS, it is "oversubscribed" (more people want to go there than can be accommodated). If we're lucky, we might get in there.

Biscuithead

Sun, Feb 14, 2010 : 9:41 p.m.

My point is that 3 hours of kindergarten is a joke. I want all day kindergarten, but our school doesn't offer it (unless enough parents fork over $4k+/year for what students elsewhere in the city get for free.) I see that it might not be what everyone wants, but we want it! And yes, if there was space available, I could drive him to one of the schools that has all-day k. Not really an option for my husband and I.

stunhsif

Sun, Feb 14, 2010 : midnight

@AMOC, Ditto my friend, AAPS dumbs it down to the lowest common denominator. Nothing at all for the gifted student?

AMOC

Sat, Feb 13, 2010 : 10:30 p.m.

I'd like to add my voice to the parents frustrated because their children have previously, or very rapidly master the material presented in their classes, and are routinely left bored with little or nothing to do at school. A few years ago, when the district was developing their Strategic Plan, it was a stated goal to providing a school years' worth of growth in learning for EVERY student every year. Unfortunately, that goal appears to have been abandoned in favor of trying to hold back the highly able children in order to reduce the district's dreaded achievement gap. Last year, one of my child's teachers complained that my child was reading a non-text book while the teacher was presenting math lessons. It turns out, since the Everyday Math curriculum "spirals", that my kid had mastered that material the first time it was presented, two years previously. I asked if the teacher would try pre-testing the students on the contents of each math unit and letting those who scored 90% or more on the pretest proceed to other math work, or have "choice" reading time or *something* other than sitting through the explanations and examples again, pretending to pay attention. That teacher seemed never to have heard of this very basic strategy for differentiating curriculum, and told me it would be too much work to do this for the two or three students who might ever be able to take advantage of it. There are pre-tests for each unit in the teachers' edition of the EDM text. If I could find a job in my field (I'm an engineer with primarily auto industry experience) to afford private school or get my kids into a charter middle school (we lost out in the lottery) they would not be in AAPS. We may still be forced to withdraw them to total home schooling so as not to alienate them from education altogether, as happened with my eldest.

aamom

Sat, Feb 13, 2010 : 10:22 a.m.

@jullie - It is sad. I have heard some teachers send kids up to first grade for reading/math etc, but it's very subjective depending on the teacher. I don't know if that is the right thing to do but it seems their should be some sort of standard for what to do with a child who has mastered the information. @Beth - I totally agree there should be choice. Kids are very different ages in K and what is great for some isn't great for all. Some kids are4 and others are 6! We have a half day choice but honestly not many people use it or they use it for the first half of the year or so until they or their child feels more comfortable staying all day.

Beth

Sat, Feb 13, 2010 : 9:45 a.m.

Not all of us actually WANT full-day K - our school has it and we are very unhappy about it. I give my kids time to play and learn at home, and that's WHY I'm a stay-home mom - I hate the fact that the schools seem to think they can do better for a 5 year-old than I can. I used to be a K teacher, and I can see the benefits of both half-day and all-day K, but parents should be given a choice - again, think "consumer driven".

Julie

Sat, Feb 13, 2010 : 9:43 a.m.

Wow, aamom. That is unfortunate indeed. Why don't the teachers give the kids something else to do when they are finished? I guess it's different where I am. Nobody seems bored. I am bummed to hear it's like that elsewhere.

aamom

Sat, Feb 13, 2010 : 9:35 a.m.

@biscuithead - Our school has full day K so kids do get outside everyday and have plenty of time for specials classes. No complaints there. But if your school is like our school he will be bored, especially if he can read, add and subtract already. It's starting to even out finally now that he's in fourth grade. @DagnyJ - While I agree that most kids will end up doing okay in a few years, it's never fun to be the kid that literally has to sit and wait for a few years while everyone else catches up. Our second child is in K now and he often does multiple copies of the same worksheet just to kill the time while the others are finishing it for the first time. As a frequent helper in class I know the majority needs to be taking that long so the assignment is appropriate for the class in general. It just makes me sad to hear from him that he doesn't like school anymore because there is hardly anything new. I try my best to stay upbeat in front of him because I want him to love school as much as I did but I know there is a lot of truth to what he is feeling. I believe strongly in all the great programs we have to bring our low performing children up. I can't believe the incredible difference in some kids from K to fourth grade but we also need to do better for ALL children - not just low performing ones.

Julie

Sat, Feb 13, 2010 : 9:03 a.m.

Ha! DagnyJ you actually said something I agree with :)

DagnyJ

Sat, Feb 13, 2010 : 7:52 a.m.

Biscuithead, kids learn and grow at really crazy rates from birth-7 or so. There are kids who struggled to read in first grade, who now in high school surpass my children in achievement--even though my kids were reading fluently in kindergarten. Relax. Also, it's interesting that you are worried your kid will be held back because he already knows so much and could learn so much more, but you are concerned about going outside. The reason there is less outside time is because parents press kindergarten to stress academics. So playtime is turned into time spent learning words, reading, numbers, math. So all our kids will be at the top of achievement scores.

Biscuithead

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 11:59 p.m.

My son will enter kindergarten this Fall. I'm considering several public options, as well as private and charters. My son is bright, and has already mastered a majority of the AAPS published kindergarten outcomes (where he's "supposed" to be by the end of the 2010-2011 school year). My concerns are that his growth will be limited in kindergarten, and that due to budget cuts, he won't get individual attention because class ratios may have to climb and that he may have fewer opportunities for enrichment at the level we have had in preschool (music, gym, media, art). Also, at our kindergarten round-up, we learned that kindergartners do not go outside everyday because there "just isn't time." most kindergarten-age kids need gross-motor activities daily (probably more than they need to know how to count to 100 by 2's). Why isn't there time? Old-fashioned ideas like half-day kindergarten.

BenWoodruff

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:29 p.m.

How many of the commenters here made judgements about Lincoln's recent effort to "bring in new students" for more state aid? If Ann Arbor, with $2000 more per student is having problems with student retention, maybe some sympathy could be found for those "lesser" districts who try to provide a good education with much fewer dollars.

YpsiLivin

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:23 p.m.

I'm also speaking about customer service. Generally, it's not a good idea to keep ramming something down peoples' throats when they've made it clear they don't like it. There are other highly regarded math programs that can achieve the district's educational objectives without making students frustrated and parents angry.

sh1

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 7:35 p.m.

I don't disagree that customer service is important. I'm speaking about the math program. (Incidentally, before EDMath, there were still kids in private school, so I'm thinking it's pretty complex, and well worth looking at.)

YpsiLivin

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 7:24 p.m.

sh1, See Zulu and Beth's comments on this thread re: "customer service."

sh1

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 7:18 p.m.

Ypsi, it says something about EVERY program. Like I said, you can't please everyone.

YpsiLivin

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 6:56 p.m.

sh1, I send my children to a private school and we field a lot of questions regarding Everyday Math. Many prospective parents are delighted to find out that we don't use it. That says something about the program, doesn't it?

sh1

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 6:08 p.m.

Ypsi, you pulled a well-used quote (by people who don't like the program) from a first edition EDM book. The third edition, which is now in use in AA, does not have that page. Nevertheless, I don't think you can judge the merit of a program based on one part of a math page. Not everyone will be pleased with any math program. The parents who seem to be most upset with EDM are those who were taught math a certain way and are uncomfortable seeing their children learning it differently because it's harder to help them.

YpsiLivin

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 5:55 p.m.

sh1, Perhaps what makes Everyday Math so "challenging" for both students and their parents are the program's significant shortcomings. http://www.nysun.com/new-york/texas-challenges-city-on-math-curriculum/66711/ And from http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/everyday.htm It is also worth noting that some of the activities for students in Everyday Math have little or no merit. For example, the Grade 5 Journal 1 has a worksheet on page 34 entitled "Time to Reflect" which has the following fill-in-the-blank problems*: 2 Complete the following statements: a. If math were a color, it would be_______, because, ________ b. If it were food, it would be _________, because, _________ c. If it were weather, it would be ________, because, _________ d. If it were an animal it would be a(n) _______, because, _____

John of Saline

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 5:38 p.m.

Another discipline issue is that teachers and administrators are petrified of being called racist, and some kids have figured this out and use it to act up. Bad enough if discipline overall is lax; add that dimension and things just got worse.

sh1

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 5:24 p.m.

It's incongruous to say that parents leave the schools because the curriculum is not challenging enough AND they don't like Everyday Math. EDMath is an extremely rigorous program that goes above and beyond state requirements for each grade level.

sh1

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 5:22 p.m.

I'm curious about what the proof is for this statement: "Schoolsmuse, good suggestions but the unions would prevent any such innovative programs to be implemented." Lots of attacks here, with nothing to back them up.

treetowncartel

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 5 p.m.

Discipline probelms are really a result of parents failing to do their jobs. When a teacher or principal called home when I was a kid you were in for it. Now when a teacher calls home the parents fire back at the teachers. Again, this is not all parents, but it just seems like there is a growing lack of respect for authority on all levels. Plus, in a sue happy world teachers and administrators almost have their hands tied. Somebody is going to point to some sort of ism and get a lawyer. Stop teaching to the MEAP, get rid of it. Let there be splintered groups of kids learning at different levels in the same class. Everybody isn't going to be a rocket scientist. Its ok if Paul reads from a blue book and Layla reads from a Yellow one.

YpsiLivin

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 4:19 p.m.

Limmy, Both Central Academy and the Washtenaw Technical Middle College are charter high schools. Central Academy offers PK-12 classes; WTMC offers classes for students in grades 10-12.

Delete Please

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 4:10 p.m.

Zulu, your defense of Capitalist For-Profit Education is brilliant.

beachbaby

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 4:08 p.m.

ann arbor mom: i think you went to our school! everything as you described, but even worse now. i am looking into leaving but am struggling with the "leaving friends" issue. our school has reverse financial discrimination because of the focus on the achievement gap. i too, would be interested in the outcomes of the exit interviews aaps used to take.

DagnyJ

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 2:46 p.m.

The AAPS can create charter schools. Why doesn't the district do it? As for CHS, set it up as a charter school, and disconnect it from the rest of the public school system. Fine by me.

jns131

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 1:49 p.m.

Didn't Granholm just sign something that stated more charter schools? This might be why Ann Arbor is fretting. For the record? I found my DD had a hard time when I switched to elementary from 4 years of charter. She struggled big time because she went from a small classroom and no problems to problems with bullies and big classroom size. In middle school and straight A's so far. She finds the course work easy but the clicks are driving her nuts. The stories she tells makes me wonder if I did the right thing moving her out of charter. I do agree with a lot of the comments here. Some are right on the money.

motivatedshi

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 1:20 p.m.

I was in AA public schools all through out elementary, and then my mom made me go to charter schools for middle school and high school. Here is the problem: Kids have the tendency to be very mean, if they lack proper discipline at home.And lets face it: now adays people are afraid to death to disipline their children for the fear that if you give them a slight slap on their tush that social services will come knocking on your door to take them away. My mom sure gave me a few good woopings when I was misbehaving, and you know what... the thought of getting another one kept me out of trouble and bad behavior! Glad she did it. Kids in public schools are too envolved with the public system and public officialls.. I remember one time in 5th grade a police officer pulled me out of class in the middle of the school day to question me about "how everything at home is going, if i get hit, and if there is anything i want to tell them" ( Becasue my older sister who was in highschool had gotten into some trouble with some friends... when i told my mom this she couldnt beleive it and pulled me out of public school

limmy

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 1:04 p.m.

I would love to see a charter high school in Ann Arbor, and I think it would fill up immediately. Every year, 200 students DO NOT get into Community. Those students and their parents want a more personal atmosphere and there is no where to get it. Pioneer is so sadly annonymous and factory like and the administration is openly hostile to parents. It just is not a good place for any child that is likely to be ignored and lost in the crowd. They are so fixated on winning awards and championships and bragging about them, they don't realize that kids want to play and be part of the group.

Beth

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 12:52 p.m.

We considered a charter but ultimately went with our neighborhood AAPS school. I love the teachers there, and I personally prefer a separate middle school with more offerings to a K-8 school. However, if we weren't completely across town from AA Open, I would probably have seriously considered that. Charter schools seem to attract parents who want more of a sense of community and who want to be more involved in their child's education. I help out in my kids' schools, but it often feels like it's because I want to rather than because the school is encouraging and welcoming parents. And the comment about "customer service" definitely is true - AAPS schools need to realize that parents can make the choice to go elsewhere, and be more aware that parents have CHOSEN the school their child attends. I would love to see AAPS offer another special program on the SE side of town, where I live, as we are so far from AA Open. We are very near South Arbor, and I know parents who have chosen that school partly because it's closest to us, even more so than the AAPS elementaries are. If Ann Arbor decides to redistrict and we are moved away from our current school, I might give up and go with a charter school. I'd love to send my kids to a private school, but there's no way we could afford that.

John Galt

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 12:24 p.m.

I know that the money is the main consideration here. But many parents make a decision to send their children to Charter and other private schools to get an education that is not a "progessive" brainwashing exercise. The way history and other topics (we will set aside the religious area) are covered in the modern government controlled schools are seen as more indoctrination than actual basic education. They may convince some to return to the district, but I do not think many will take the bait.

KeepingItReal

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 11:31 a.m.

To quote @Glenn Nelson..."we should take the phenomenon of charters schools very seriously." I think Glenn is correct. As a proponent of Charter Schools, I have traveled all over the state looking at different charter models and talking to parents whose children are enrolled in Charters and 95% of the parents I've spoken with are very satisfied with their child school. There are several characteristics I've notice about these schools: (1) the teachers, administrators, boards and others staff are all pulling in the same direction. They didn't seem occupied with retirement plans, benefits and time off, etc; (2) there seems to be a genuine concern for the students and parents; (3) there seems to be a real emphasis on the quality of the learning environment; (4) I don't think that I heard anything mentioned about an "achievement gap" at any of these schools. It is downright dishearthening to talk with local school educators and board members and to listen to their conversation about the "achievement gap." What I observed at the charters I visited is a constant monitoring of the students progress and adjustments are made to improve in areas where the students need improvement. Don't our educators and boards realize how they are stigmatizing these children when they are constantly talking about an achievement gap; (5) accountability seems to be a key element in these schools staring with the educational staff and including the families and other employees in the school; (6) every school that I visited seem to emphasize a demonstration of courtesy (what is commonly referred to as "customer service" toward each other and their "stakeholders." I think Glenn Nelson comments should be given serious consideration by the board and school administrators and educational personnel. Maybe some of these students you are losing will return to your districts.

YpsiLivin

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 11:26 a.m.

Rhe Buttal, Comparing charter schools to private schools is like comparing margarine to butter. There is no substitute for real choice, which is what private schools can (and public schools cannot) provide. With regard to the expenditure of your tax dollars on education, you espouse the philosophy that only public schools contribute to the public good, and that's simply not the case. Education that advances the state's educational aims, regardless of its source, benefits the public. There are no public funds available for private schools in Michigan, with a few very narrow exceptions mostly related to transportation and special education. (Those funds come from the federal government, anyway.) In my humble opinion, this is one of Michigan's grand mistakes. By not recognizing and encouraging the public benefit that private schools contribute, the state has consigned itself to shouldering the entire cost of educating thousands of children in public schools when for the comparatively small cost of a subsidy or tax break, it could entice a number of Michigan families to share the bill. In doing so, it would make more money available for the students who remain in the public education system. The end result of this process is what you see now: the State struggling with a gargantuan bill for educating its children; few prospects for additional new school revenue; and a tax base that is largely hostile to the thought of paying more for what in many cases amounts to sub-standard, one-size-fits-none education for everyone.

klatte

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 11:09 a.m.

Please oh please a Spansih immersion school! Why isn't there anything around here?

Skeb Bpow

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 10:59 a.m.

@ Rhe Buttle - Then can I get relief from the portion of my taxes that supports local public schools because I send my kid to a private school? Why should my tax dollars be used to support a second rate system that doesn't provide a quality education? I, too would like a refund.

josber

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 10:50 a.m.

JMClark The district has very weak behavioral management skills with behavioral kids...If you take a kid out who is disruptive and and the reason they are disruptive is to get out of class, and then send them out, the next time that kid will be more disruptive and get sent out sooner and do less work. It becomes a vicious cycle. There's ways to handle behaviors like this, but the district is reluctant to take care of this problem appropriately. Think of the hallway situation in the schools, where kids are supposed to report problems,as a means to manage difficult behavior, and the adults aren't obliged to supervise and prevent the problem behaviors in the first place....

Rhe Buttle

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 10:19 a.m.

And here I thought the revolutionary war was fought over "taxation without representation"... The concept of allowing LOCAL PUBLIC schools to tax property to gain revenue is legitimate, the concept of taxing me so that someone can send their kid to a PRIVATE school is not. I suggest that property owners demand rebates. And on the same issue: when the kid comes around soliciting donations to a school fund, why should I give? Since kids can now go to a private school on my dime, why should I help support a local and probably losing football team. No charter High Schools in Ann Arbor? Here's an idea: The Charter Football High School of Ann Arbor (guess what their major is)... And to back it up you should have both the Charter Hockey High School and Charter Basketball High School of Ann Arbor (students would be allowed to transfer at the end of each season). Then to wrap it up we need the Charter Track HS and Charter Baseball HS, of Ann Arbor. All we have to do is get them past the MEAPs ever year and they'd still graduate. Lots of money to be made here folks!

aamom

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 10:18 a.m.

YspiLivin, I totally agree that we can't afford a whole G&T program. But it's those bright, motivated kids that may not be truly "gifted" that are still sitting there bored sometimes. What I'd like to see is actually very simple. A set of district standards of what to do with a student when he/she masters the info early. This shouldn't cost anything and would at least give the district something to point to when people ask how they will meet the needs of these kids. From what I've seen, some teachers routinely send kids up a grade for a subject, some have them read quietly, some prepare extra worksheets (sometimes on the already mastered topic, sometimes not). I don't know which way is right but I feel like somebody at the district level should know the best practices for these kids. Everytime I mention these feelings to someone they just say to wait for Pioneer because they do a good job meeting all abilities there. Seems a bit late to me.

Ann Arbor Mom

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 10:15 a.m.

Perception is perception, but we were there. I took my daughter out of an AAPS elementary school and placed her in a local Charter School. At Kindergarten Round-up we met a lovely Principal and liked the school. By the time the fall came around we had a new principal that came from an school that was in trouble and was well known for bullying and intimidation. Bullying became the norm, without much discipline. 5th graders were coercing Kindergartners into hurting other students, and the Kindergartners were the ones getting in trouble. One such bus incident the bus driver wanted the older child removed from the bus indefinately, the parents complained that they would have to pick their child up and that wasn't fair, the principal agreed. Everyday the children on the bus were exposed to a bully because the school system (principal) allowed it. My daughters teacher would tell her to behave and say "if you continue you will get in trouble" for disrupting the class. There were never any consequences, just empty words. When I would hear from the teacher about her disrupting the class, mind-you only when I went in to pick her up, no telephone calls, no email, no meetings, we as a family, would try to figure out why this would happen. It took until March of that year when we asked her teacher to watch and see if she disrupts the class because she was finished with the assignment? Guess what, she was and assumed that if she was done her friends were done and they could talk. We had to diagnose the problem and ask this 15+ year teacher to give her more work. She couldn't/wouldn't? do it on her own? We have found much conflict, apathy, and inconsistancy. We are concerned about high school though we have a few years to go, she would like to go to Pioneer like her father, aunts and even her grandfather. I would prefer private or Community. We will see how things go over the next few years and how the AAPS school district emerges. For right now I am happy with the bi-weekly assemblies, the Pledge of Allegiance, singing America the Beautiful, and having consequences for our actions, positive and negative. The teachers recognizing each childs skill level and giving work accordingly. As parents we do what we think is best for our children, whether it's a Charter School, AAPS, Ypsilanti, Private, or Milan only we know. The fact that we have options to give our children the best we can is what is really important.

Julie

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 9:56 a.m.

I cannot believe that there are people here actually objecting to the school district seeking to generate revenue by looking to meet the needs of families and students in the district by looking at creative programming. I'm so close to banning myself from reading these boards at all anymore, the knee-jerk vitriol is exhausting. Schoolsmuse, I think you nailed it. As a parent at AAO, and one who looked at and considered charters and private schools as well, I have no doubt that if a system like that existed here, we'd pull many students back. Personally, I was looking for a K-8 school with a strong sense of community and a strong educational philosophy. I wanted kids to have more creative time, play time and outdoor time, and project-based learning. I wanted kids to be held responsible for their actions and their part in their community (this is not top-down "discipline" as much as classroom culture). I wanted teachers who believed in the school and the philosophy, and who wanted to be there. AAO hit enough of these to win me over. If we hadn't gotten in, we would have left the district. If there were more options like schoolsmuse described, I have no doubt we'd have found another place in the district. A language immersion school is a brilliant idea. This would pull back families that went private, too. It would appeal to those who wanted more challenge and stimulation for their kids, as well as those for whom having a bilingual child would be a priority. More K-8 options is huge as well. All the ideas you suggested should be seriously looked at.

DagnyJ

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 9:53 a.m.

For example, there's Emerson School for the Financially Gifted

DagnyJ

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 9:51 a.m.

G&T programs are a joke. BTW, I have seen plenty of gifted kids thrive at elementary schools. But I also have seen a lot of parents of "gifted" kids complain that the school isn't doing enough. I know of an elementary school kid or two who was doing seventh grade work in in elementary school, and took some HS classes while in 7th grade. I know of HS students who take all of their courses at UM--and these are NOT kids at Community. I wonder if giftedness is in the eye of the parent. And certainly private schools prey on these parents, and then soak them for thousands of dollars in tuition.

YpsiLivin

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 9 a.m.

DonBee, I was struck by one thought as I read your post; gifted and talented programs are a form of special education, but the price tag for special ed averages about $20K-$25K per child. A G&T program would incur significant, additional costs per-child. Right now, special ed funds are restricted to those students who are not making adequate academic progress. so schools would have to pony up the cash to run a G&T program on their own. Politically, it's very difficult to justify spending money on the academic superstars while ordinary and failing students languish. There are an awful lot of bright, motivated children in the schools today but very few truly gifted ones. If AAPS wants to go this route, they'd need to institute a testing program and set rigid standards to identify the truly gifted students who would actually benefit from a G&T program. They'd also have to be prepared to deal with the onslaught of parents whose children are certainly bright, but nowhere near gifted. A G&T program quickly devolves into a status grab. It's not pretty. My sister has two very bright (but seriously unmotivated) boys in another (wealthier) district that has a G&T program. Based on my observations of her, them and the program they're in, I wouldn't touch a G&T program with a 10-ft pole.

aamom

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 9 a.m.

I totally agree that the elementaries aren't meeting the needs of our brightest students. We were told by a teacher that they don't want the kids to get more than a grade level above in reading (district policy) because it's hard to teach such a large spread. While I understand and appreciate the challenge they face, I want the my kid to learn something new too!

Likearock

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:57 a.m.

IMO, School of Choice is bad for Michigan public schools. When decent schools have to invest in advertising nobody wins. Like others have said, there's also a lot pf parallels to the auto industry. To many people make decisions based on what the trend of the day is and not based on real facts. Perception is rarely reality. I prefer the old fashioned school of choice - If you want to go to another school then move there!

Alan Benard

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:55 a.m.

Hey, is it another schools story? Time for the army of union and government haters to haul out another half-dozen unsubstantiated, anecdotal attacks on the AAPS and time for this broke-down cheezy second-rate blog to print them most enthusiastically. Hooray for libel in the interest of page views! Go Laruel! Go Tony!

KJMClark

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:43 a.m.

I don't think a survey would be a bad idea, but Donbee is on to part of what I've heard from families that left. I haven't heard anyone say that there isn't enough academic challenge, though I have heard that the discipline problems cause learning environment problems. The big problem is discipline, or rather behavior problems that are allowed to continue. Another way to say what Don wrote is that the AAPS bends over backward at times to help children with behavioral problems. In the process, they condone a lot of behavior that disrupts classrooms and the learning environment. Not everyone is willing to have their kids put up with reduced opportunities due to behavior issues in the classroom and playground. But it's not necessarily an easy problem for the schools, either. If you have a disadvantaged kid who has serious behavior problems, if you just pull them out every time they're disruptive, they will get left behind. On the other hand, if you don't pull them out when they're disrupting the class, they end up making things difficult for the entire classroom. This is very frustrating for many of the kids, the teachers, and the parents. For some of the parents, the hassle of moving to another school is worth the effort to get away from this problem.

DagnyJ

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:38 a.m.

DonBee, I mostly see eye to eye with you, but on this one I have to disagree. Some charters emphasize discipline like Heritage. Others, like Ann Arbor Learning Community and Honey Creek are about inquiry based learning, and environmental learning. Ann Arbor parents have sent kids to private schools at a higher rate than almost anywhere else in the state--even before charter schools. People here think non-public schools, or charter schools, are somehow better for their individual children. AAPS used to interview parents of kids who leave the school district about why they chose to opt it. Where is that data? Without it, this is all speculation. I'd like to know exactly WHY parents made the choice to attend these other schools. That what help. Why did parents choose Ypsi over AAPS? Also, why doesn't AAPS open its own charter school? School districts can do that. Why not convert two elementary schools into charters?

xmo

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:36 a.m.

It'S really too bad that the public schools have competition! Now they have to change to meet the market if they want to continue. It reminds me of the auto industry, can schools get a bailout and a school Tsar?

Nerak

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:32 a.m.

Having had my child in private school for all of elementary and middle school, before putting her in public high school, I can tell the Board that my child experienced much more individual attention, a more tranquil learning environment, far less emphasis on tests and requirements, and had plenty of unstructured play and physical exercise. For me, I had substantially more contact with the teachers and administration and was not drowned in bureaucracy and rules. My child then made the move to Pioneer (which she generally liked, but I sure didn't) and now she's at Community, which is much better, though not perfect. The public schools get on a per-pupil basis pretty nearly what private school costs, and I have to say the value (what you get for the money)is not there for me.

Janice

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 8:19 a.m.

Donbee - You hit the nail on the head exactly. These are the exact issues cited by everyone I know that has left the district for private or charter schools: discipline, teaching at the lowest common denominator, and the everyday math program. I would add that the lack of emphasis on and poor teaching of writing is also a major issue, maybe more important than the math program. As someone with two kids of my own in an AAPS middle school, I also can confirm this reality. That said, there are some stand-out teachers who go above and beyond, but this is the exception rather than the rule. Adding some magnet programs might attract a few people, but until the other problems are fixed, magnet programs won't have that big of an impact on revenue. I suspect most of the people signing up for these programs will be current district families. AAPS are you listening?

josber

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 5:22 a.m.

Don Bee, those are not perceptions, they are realities....

DonBee

Fri, Feb 12, 2010 : 12:42 a.m.

When I talk to friends who's children are out of the AAPS and in private and charter schools I hear a couple of themes: 1) Disipline - The AAPS schools they feel (this is their perception and my interpretation of that perception) the AAPS schools lack disipline in the classroom and in the hallways. The specifically point to pushing and shoving, bullying and name calling in the schools and on the buses. One parent said that their child had had their lunch stolen on the bus every day for a month before they found out about it (whether this is true or not, I do not know - but they tell the story routinely). Whether the issues are true or not there is a strong perception that the schools have little or no disipline and the school staff does not care what happens outside of class time. No ad campaign will fix a perception. Second is the feeling that the schools at the elementary and middle schools do not offer anything for children who are bright and have a very supportive home environment, that the schools are focused on holding the top down, while bringing the bottom up so that there is no achievement gap. Again this is a perception that people have. Fixing perceptions is very hard and no marketing campaign will change it. It would take whole sale recasting of staff contracts publically to make it the responsibility of every staff member to be in the hallways during passing times and on the play grounds during recess. This would have to be a very public change to the school contracts and the contract process would have to be far more open than it has been in the past. For the achievement issue it would take opening gifted and talented programs that rival some of the local private schools. Not an easy process, with the focus of the focus on no child left behind. Neither of these issues will be easy to solve, especially in a year with a decreasing budget. I wish the school board well on this issue. More focused charter schools and private schools will open, as well as expansion of several schools that are attached to religious groups. Further the perception that the middle schools are warehouses for children who need to get through their emotional changes and so do not need the stress of tough academics is another reason people give for wanting out of the district. If there were more options for 7th and 8th grade the middle schools would have even fewer students. I suspect this is a prime market for a challenging middle school. Add the everyday math program that parents dislike and the middle schools are a regular topic of discussion at some of the gatherings I attend. The likelihood is that there will be more, not fewer students in charter, private and other schools that are not AAPS in the fall. Additionally with jobs leaving the state, I would suspect that the overall students to draw from will fall further.

snapshot

Thu, Feb 11, 2010 : 10:57 p.m.

Schoolsmuse, good suggestions but the unions would prevent any such innovative programs to be implemented.

snapshot

Thu, Feb 11, 2010 : 10:49 p.m.

These education professionals just don't give up. There's not enough money to support their habit so like a predator they go after their prey, charter school students who chose to leave the AAPS's. Instead of managing their finances, living within their means, making the necessary budget cuts, they focus their attention on aquiring additional revenue by making the children a mere commodity to be aquired. If they put as much attention into balancing the budget as they are in their efforts to increase it, they wouldn't be in a deficit position. They failed to recognize the warnings from state officials and they continue to concentrate on their own needs rather than those of the children. It's a shame and leadership has failed in their responsibility to the community.

schoolsmuse

Thu, Feb 11, 2010 : 10:46 p.m.

I think if you look at local charters and private schools, you will see some themes that AAPS elementary schools could easily target without a huge expense--for instance, immersion language program; Montessori program; an additional K-8 program; a program that emphasizes arts and music. I'd like to see a lot more choices, perhaps one in each quadrant of the city--so, Ann Arbor Open in the West, a K-8 Montessori in the east, a Spanish immersion program on the south side, an arts and music program on the north side...you get the idea.

belboz

Thu, Feb 11, 2010 : 10:38 p.m.

I hope they don't plan on spending money doing this... The reason why kids have left is becuase they don't like the system. A clever add campaign will do nothing. Specific example - I know people who do not like 6,7, and 9th all in one school. Plus, they don't like that middle school kids are treated like cattle, shuffled from class to class with little feeling of a school community. Just cattle. You can't please everyone. So, don't plan on making up money by new students. Make the staff cuts, budget cuts, and school closings required. This is a pie in the sky hope - that is not proactive planning.

Orangecrush2000

Thu, Feb 11, 2010 : 10:26 p.m.

Better teachers.

John Floyd

Thu, Feb 11, 2010 : 10:20 p.m.

This is a zero-sum game. No new state education funding is created by shuffling students. I understand why any one district wants to get more students/state dollars, but all this does is beggar some other, neighboring school district. If the point is to create a Darwinian market of surviving and collapsing districts, then this makes sense. Students from collapsing districts will end up in surviving districts.