Jon Saalberg

Fri, Oct 23, 2009 : 11:27 a.m.

Uh, just a general comment - if AB likes to post a lot, it is not spam - it is a lot of concern with regards to this important issue. Unless AB is trying to "trick" us with hidden Nigerian money schemes or the like.

hollow

Thu, Oct 22, 2009 : 1:31 p.m.

Miha you do have a say, it is called voting. Vote for your representation in Lansing and if you don't like what they do, move to Canada and pay 50% income tax. I really can't believe how people can be so selfish and short sighted not support public education. Is the system perfect? Hardly. But waiting for Lansing to figure it out is going to be a while. Schools have cut and cut and cut, now there is nothing left to cut. Vote yes to support kids and their future.

Miha

Thu, Oct 22, 2009 : 10:15 a.m.

I don't understand how the school system in this country keeps crying poor when they receive thousands of dollars per student! I went to school in Europe (K-12 grades), where I received an excellent education and there was much less money involved. Money is not the answer to this problem! Look where the US compares with other countries in education, and yet we spend way more money. While my former teachers truly had an awful salary, they still did their job with pride, spirit and dedication! I cannot say the same for the teachers here, private or public. Very few are truly great. Teachers here have a shorter school year, good pay and health insurance. Yet, they cry poor. I studied hard for 8 years (received a doctorate degree), worked full time year round and made less than $100K/yr. We pay the high Ann Arbor city school taxes, but my kids go to a private school. So I ask, where is that money going, since my kids are not using the public system? I also don't get winter and summer months off, and personally supplement my kids' education with after school activities. Let's shift the focus from money to improving the quality of education using all that we have now. Millions of dollars are spent with little return. Schools here are failing us! How about getting more money as a reward for a great education? And we, the parents and tax payers, should have a say!

Tom Bower

Thu, Oct 22, 2009 : 8:30 a.m.

Alan Benard, "Tom Bower... I love the way you spam up these threads!! Please show me the data that indicates non-unionized charter schools do a better job of educating children." Really? Here's some information for you and other readers... Michigan Charter Schools Do More with Less Source: Michigan Association of Public School Academies http://www.charterschools.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79&Itemid=44 Charters are doing more with less. 62% of the state's charter students are minorities, one of the highest ratios in the country and significantly above the state average of 26 percent. About 58% of Michigan charter students qualify for free- or reduced-price lunch. Charter schools receive a per-pupil funding of about $7,888. This is $1,198 less per student than all traditional schools statewide, and $2,576 less per student than the traditional district where the charter school is located. Charter total student funding is never more than what the local district gets. Charters are not allowed to levy millages or sell public bonds. In fact, many charters pay property taxes back to traditional districts. Michigan charters put their dollars in the classroom. Latest data from the National Center for Education Statistics shows 63% of all charter staff are in the classroom, directly helping children to learn. In contrast, the state average for all schools is 48% -- among the worst in the nation. According to the Michigan Dept of Education (MDE), charter school students in grades K-8 outperform students in similar traditional public school districts in 25 of 27 MEAP tests. Charter high school students have achieved an 86% graduation rate, 12% above similar traditional districts. According to the MDE, students in charter schools receive, on average, $1,778 less per year in combined state and local financial resources than students in host districts. And, you may also enjoy reading the following: Charter Schools Performance A recent study shows New York City charter schools outperform traditional schools. Source: New York Times (September 22, 2009): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/22/education/22charters.html Direct link to the report The New York City Schools Charter Schools Evaluation Project authored by Stanford University professor of economics Caroline M. Hoxby: http://www.nber.org/~schools/charterschoolseval/

jhcer

Thu, Oct 22, 2009 : 8:28 a.m.

Also: Dotdash - well said. $200 a year is $16 a month. Worth it in my book. And the schools will still have to make cuts, because more cuts are coming from the state.

jhcer

Thu, Oct 22, 2009 : 8:25 a.m.

Wow. If teachers have it so good, why didn't we all become one? Some of these comments wreak of bitterness, and by the way - many teachers live in the city and pay taxes just like the rest of us. I didn't realize that one was only living in the "real world" if they were in the private sector......

Cash

Thu, Oct 22, 2009 : 7:19 a.m.

When there is significant percentage pay cuts by ALL public school employees...administrators and teachers alike, I would consider it. But while the rest of us suffer from job loses and pay cuts, public school employees thumb their noses at us and continue business as usual...and when they see less revenue they just say "Give us more" or threaten cuts that will hurt students. How about employees taking some of the pain? Because we cannot take any more.

Mumbambu, Esq.

Wed, Oct 21, 2009 : 1:45 p.m.

In five years, you're going to be blown away!

sh1

Wed, Oct 21, 2009 : 9:32 a.m.

"Jimmy"--Please provide your evidence of this: "your school board is in the back room supporting the millage, telling the teachers they will restore rasises if they support the millage - and all will be good with the state in 5 years and it will be business as usual."

dotdash

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 8:25 p.m.

Look, I'd be the first one to admit that education data are complicated and that a lot of factors affect student performance. Rich educated people want to live in towns with good safe schools, so property values go up in towns with strong schools and more funding is available. Whether AA scores well because they fund their schools better or because educated people buy into the schools' reputation and move here -- at some point the chicken/egg doesn't matter. If you own property in AA, you should probably vote for the millage as an investment in your own financial future -- however this theoretical tussle between DagnyJ and I works out... :)

Jimmy Olsen

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 7:56 p.m.

Zulu - your school board is in the back room supporting the millage, telling the teachers they will restore rasises if they support the millage - and all will be good with the state in 5 years and it will be business as usual. Why take on the tough task of opening contracts and living within your means. Look to see which board members accepted money from the MEA or local district unions to run for the school board. It is a common talking point of the MEA to try and elect former teachers, etc "friends of the union" to local school boards. Business as usual. VOTE NO. Live within your means. If teachers can find a better deal elsewhere - good luck - there are plenty of new teachers who would love to work at schools in Washtenaw county.

DagnyJ

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 7:23 p.m.

Actually, I can answer that. In New Jersey, the state supreme court ordered the state government to send money to the dozen or so poorest districts (that also spent little on schools because of low property values) to bring these districts to parity in per-pupil spending with the highest spending districts (which happened to be in communities with the wealthiest residents and highest property values). Can you guess what happened to student achievement in those poorest districts once they got the extra money, which happened back in about 2001? Did all that money make a difference?

DagnyJ

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 7:20 p.m.

dotdash, I'll bite. What happens when you factor in the socioeconomic status of the students? Would you be surprised to find that rich kids with affluent, educated parents in crime free communities go to schools that spend a lot? So which is it...the affluent educated family or the high spending school?

dotdash

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 6:47 p.m.

DagnyJ: I took your link and used the first state-by-state data in the file that I came across (Math, 4th grade). When I correlated state spending per pupil with 4th grade math scores, I found a positive and sigmificant correlation (.43). Overall, 4th grade math scores are higher in states with higher per-pupil spending. (Now will you support higher per-pupil spending?)

Tom Bower

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 6:42 p.m.

Zulu, The lottery generates about $600 million each year for public education. The annual K-12 budget is about $13 billion. About $1 billion per grade level. The lottery revenues are less than a spit in the ocean.

larry

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 6:21 p.m.

"Enhancement millage is the talk in Washtenaw County education circles". Of course it is. What else is new?

DagnyJ

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 5:22 p.m.

dotdash: I looked at the NAEP scores for 2007 by state and compared with spending per state in the document you posted. Let's take three states with average per pupil spending that is just below the national average: West Virginia $9,611, Illinois $9,555, and Minnesota $9539. If money mattered, then these states should have average 8th grade math achievement that is ever so slightly below the national mean. But instead West Virginia achieves below the national average, Illinois is average, and Minnesota is above average. How can that be if money matters? How about 8th grade reading? These same three states score exactly the same way, WV is low, IL is average, and MN is high. But the difference in spending per pupil is less than $100. I'll bet that if you did an analysis that could control for household wealth and parental education, you'd find money mattered very little. http://nationsreportcard.gov/about_nrc.asp

dotdash

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 3:28 p.m.

Dear DagnyJ: Take a look at this link if you'd like to relate school spending to achievement. http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/07f33pub.pdf Compare the graph on xiii (state-by-state school per pupil funding) to any measure of state-by-state school achievement you can think of (Ivy League attendance, number of Nobel laureates, research funding, number of US presidents) and you'll see that the states with the highest per pupil funding are at the top of those lists and the states with the lowest per pupil funding are at the bottom.

KeepingItReal

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 1:12 p.m.

If I recall correctly, one of the main arguments for implementing the lottery system in the State of Michigan is the windfall that would go to support our public schools system. Where is that money? What happened to it? Also, where is our school board on this matter. I've not heard anything from them.

sh1

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 12:27 p.m.

Many people here are upset that the greatest part of the district budget goes to pay salaries, notably teachers' salaries. Since teachers run the programs that make our district as good as it is, I'm curious where people would rather see the money go.

DagnyJ

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 11:23 a.m.

Please show me the data that specifies what level of funding is necessary to get the best education. And please use student achievement data to demonstrate the relationship between money and learning. (Skip the collapse-of-the-schools hyperbole, please.) That might help get my support for the millage.

limmy

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 10:23 a.m.

In response to Tom's comment that charter schools are doing more with less--I disagree. My kids went to a charter school. They have no sports. No art room or art teacher. No science lab. No orchestra or choir. No foreign language. And, most of all, they probide no transportation to school. Compare to an AAPS middle school -- numerous sports, art, woodworking, science labs, several foreign languages. In addition, their teachers tend to be very inexperienced and frequently leave after 3 or 4 years to move to traditional public schools with better pay and benefits. There are pluses and minuses to charter schools. You can't without taking note of numerous factors.

dotdash

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 9:14 a.m.

The odd thing is that if, as GOBLUE says, Washtenaw Cty taxes are in the top 6% by income, why are the Washtenaw schools below the 50% percent for funding (and even lower, now that Gov. Granholm has vetoed AA's "hold-harmless" dollars). Everyone can complain as much as they want about taxes, but the schools are getting a smaller percent of the taxes than in most other counties in the country. *That's* what everyone should be complaining about.

Mumbambu, Esq.

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 7:28 a.m.

If the schools collapse, I hope it doesn't begin with football sized chunks of concrete.

GoblueBeatOSU

Tue, Oct 20, 2009 : 6:33 a.m.

Alan Benard..ok..that's better..now you have written something that some thought can be given to. Not sure I agree with the word "collapse" yet, but I need to consider your facts. While I'm thinking about your facts, can you answer this question that I posted on another thread? here is something to think about...out of over 1,800+ counties throughout the US included in the study, Washtenaw County ranks as the 69th highest for median property taxes paid on homes. Our rank for taxes as a percent of income is 106. Yes, that is right...out of over 1,800+ counties across the entire United States, only 105 counties have a higher tax rate based on percent of income than Washtenaw County. Said another way, only 6% of the counties have a higher tax rate than we do. 94% of the counties have a lower tax rate. Please someone, explain to us how over 1,700 counties across the United States can make it on a lower tax rate as a percentage of income than Washtenaw County? Where are all the tax dollars collected going? What is the goal of this tax increase? Do we want Washtenaw County to have the highest tax rate in the country? My data source.."Property Tax on Owner-Occupied Housing, by County, Ranked by Property Taxes as a Percentage of Home Value*, 2005-2007 Average,".. http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/24051.html Why should we support a new tax when we already have one of the top 6% highest tax rates in the country? How can 94% of the rest of the country get along with a lower tax rate than we have today?

Alan Benard

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 11:10 p.m.

Tom Bower... I love the way you spam up these threads!! Please show me the data that indicates non-unionized charter schools do a better job of educating children. http://www.educationsector.org/research/research_show.htm?doc_id=414679 Education Sector: Maintenance Required - Charter Schooling in Michigan "Michigan's charter schools perform only marginally better than the state's urban school districts and well below statewide averages.... It is unlikely that there will be any successful move to increase the number of charter schools that universities can authorize until Michigan's existing charter schools deliver better student performance, authorizers can ensure adequate oversight, and EMOs are held publicly accountable.

Alan Benard

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:57 p.m.

GoBlueBeatOSU: There are cuts to state funding coming on the order of $500/pupil in 2010-11. That is "the cliff" that a good number of Michigan school districts will fall over into state receivership. If this happens, instead of having some minor control over our destinies, we will have none. Ann Arbor is not in danger of falling into receivership that year, or maybe even soon, but a number of the ten Washtenaw districts are. Ann Arbor will face the reduction of its $28 million current "rainy day" fund to zero within either three years or two, depending on how little money Lansing sends. If the millage fails, that gets spent faster. Sounds like a collapse to me, but don't take my word for it -- how about the center-right, anti-tax, pro-business, George-Bush-endorsing editorial board of the deceased Ann Arbor News?Why are schools seeking this millage? School funding is heading toward a crisis point The Ann Arbor News editorial May 31, 2009. Most districts are facing severe shortfalls in next years budgetsome in the millions of dollars. The Ann Arbor News editorial goes on to say that staff cuts and one-time stimulus money are part of the solution. But, more state cuts in the district's per-pupil fundingwhich makes up the bulk of the schools revenueare projected for next school year. And, by 2010-11, the stimulus money will be exhausted and further per-pupil budget cuts may loom.

Tom Bower

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:18 p.m.

The governor's recent veto adds a new twist to the funding issue: http://www.freep.com/article/20091019/NEWS06/310190003/1319/Veto-slashes-school-aid If the veto holds and the funding is not restored, Ann Arbor Public Schools will be hit hard. The other school districts in Washtenaw County will not be affected because they are not "hold-harmless" districts.

Tom Bower

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:06 p.m.

YpsiLivin, "charter schools were voted in because they said they could do more than the local public school districts could with less money." And, charter school do. Charter schools do not get a larger per-pupil allotment than the base per-pupil payment that most public schools get. Your source? Check out the per-pupil funding information by school district, including the Washtenaw County PSAs. It's listed at the WISD website. Ann Arbor gets more than any other school district in Washtenaw County. Charter schools are getting the base minimum per student. And, they are doing more. The charter school I work for graduates students who simultaneously earn their high school diplomas and an associate degree from Washtenaw Community College. All of this is done using only the base per pupil foundation grant. Name another high school in Michigan that had any of its graduates last year earn both a high school diploma and an associate degree from a community college. There are none. That's real value for students, their parents and the taxpayers of Washtenaw County and the state of Michigan.

a2huron

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 9:21 p.m.

So, now another truth comes out. The school districts and teachers in public schools want to use this millage as another way to drive a wedge between them and the charter schools so the charters will eventually have to close down due to an even greater funding disparity. Nice way to alienate and/or disenfranchise the thousands of county residents who made the personal choice to use charter schools. The students in the charter schools don't get a dime from the millage. The motives behind this greedy millage are getting even nastier the more I learn about it. I have had enough and I'm definitely voting NO.

dotdash

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 9:17 p.m.

Yikes! Governor Granholm just vetoed 3.7 million dollars that was headed toward Ann Arbor public schools. I believe that was totally unexpected, no? What now?

YpsiLivin

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 9:07 p.m.

Tom Bower, charter schools were voted in because they said they could do more than the local public school districts could with less money. As it is, charter schools get a larger per-pupil allotment than the base per-pupil payment that most public schools get. Charters said they could do more with less and now it's time for them to put their money where their mouth is. If it's no longer fiscally viable for charters to operate on the money they're given, they're welcome to close up shop...

Jimmy Olsen

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 8:50 p.m.

localyolk - the teachers union usually has one or more of the union officers who need to "work" handling union grievances, etc. part of their salary is usually covered by the union. The MEA does have "uniserve" directors all across the state. The are assigned to various school districts, about 4 or 5 each. The local guy here makes about $135,000 - all paid from union member dues I suppose. Just like the MEA president's 300K salary.

mytwocents

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 8:41 p.m.

Jhm- Well said!

Jim Mulchay

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 8:34 p.m.

A lot of comment, but the real sticky issue is that the basic funding of the public school systems in Michigan is collapsing. The millage requested is a local stopgap but is not a long-term answer. You need to vote (however you feel) but you also need to pressure the state lawmakers to develop a model that can fund the public school systems in the future.

GoblueBeatOSU

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 7:48 p.m.

Alan Benard - "The schools in Washtenaw Co. will collapse without this millage."...way to debate...make false statements designed to invoke fear...the schools will "NOT" collapse. Many have made intelligent arguments against the millage. Perhaps one reason so many people are against this millage is because they aren't interested in hearing the truth distorted just so a small minority can take their hard earned dollars and pocket the money for themselves. If you wish to speak in support of the millage that is fine. Present your thoughts using intelligent dialogue backed by facts. Provide references for your facts.

Alan Benard

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 7:03 p.m.

When people sound like conservatives and staunchly deny it, they are libertarians. This sociopathy is for the political right kinda like the Shining Path Maoist guerrilla movement in Peru for the leftists -- so far to the extreme as to be laughable. You folks spamming the board with this extreme indivdualism have a vote, just like the rest of us. I'm sorry you don't like the outcome of living in a democratic society. In ours, you are taxed by the representatives you elected. And this time, you get to vote for the tax directly. Nobody cares how aggrieved you feel because you have to pay taxes -- any taxes, from the way you're carrying on. The schools in Washtenaw Co. will collapse without this millage. That's the long and the short of it. If you don't mind that, vote accordingly.

OverTaxed

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 7:02 p.m.

It's easy, those voting YES can pay extra for their children to attend school! I am tired of having a higher tax rate in my neighborhood than those with children, no children of my own, and being told I will pay more. There is nothing in the Constitution that states others have the right to extort money from me. Voting on issues in this country is un-Constitutional. I say we do not pass anything without a registered voter majority, like Congress. I am tired of sneaky vote tactics, 100 people then showing up and raising my taxes. You lazy good for nothing cry babies with your comments posted on your lawns and piece signs on your cars never show up. Special interests get whatever they want here and it's never a tax decrease.

braggslaw

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 6:20 p.m.

Petry, I have a problem with self interest groups taking my tax money i.e. the teachers unions. Raise their co-pays slightly and you have accounted for all the $218 per student that is cut. BUT that will never happen due to the strength of the teachers unions. Again, let me choose with my money.

petry9

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 5:57 p.m.

First, governor Granholm believes the likelihood of educational cuts in the new state budget proposal is "very likely". This would amount to 218 dollars per student and cost the Ann Arbor Public schools District approximately four million dollars. One million dollars at both Saline and Ypsilanti school districts. In total the Washtenaw County Schools will have a 10 million dollar cut to local districts. This fails to mention the other special programs the district offers that will be cut. In Washtenaw County, with strong financial communities, an extra $200 a month in taxes, should be worth it considering the district will plummet without the millage. Education is essential for the next generation to succeed and eventually create reliable professionals to get us out of the economic hard times. Education is one of the last State Budget cuts you want to see. However, since Granholm was left in a predicament, it is washtenaw counties time to stand up for education. We will have the power and authority to do it ourselves. Republicans are oppose to tax increases in all areas of politics. In education where government plays such a monumental role, in a monetary and structural sense. It is unlike many other areas of the political agenda. Since there has always been a reliance on government funding (now stripped), there are no options. You (mainly republicans opposing) really think we should no longer rely on government spending or tax increases to help education??

braggslaw

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 5:45 p.m.

Throwing money at a problem never fixes anything. Look at the Detroit public schools 12000 per student and a 20% graduation rate thanks their teachers union. I see nothing better than allowing the consumers of a service choose the service. If funding is an issue make sure that every kid gets a certain dollar amount e.g. 8500. That is more than is funded per kid. I guarantee that there will be very good schools for less than that per student. Better than the average public school

dotdash

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 5:39 p.m.

I can't see the marketplace being such a wonderful cure for education. What will happen is that there will quickly be good expensive schools for those who can afford to supplement the government's contribution and really bad schools for those who can't. It'll be like Section 8 housing -- what you'll be able to get for your voucher will be such low quality you won't want it. The public schools you are complaining about do not actually cost much at all -- in AA, less than $8 an hour per kid. That is less than you would pay for a good babysitter. And for that you get trained teachers, sports and arts and music facilities, and a safe place for your kids to spend their time.

Tom Bower

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 5:13 p.m.

Many excellent comments. What I don't find however is anyone addressing another aspect of the proposed millage --- the fact that more than 3,500 students who attend public school academies (charter schools) in Washtenaw County will receive nothing from this millage. These are public school students. The Friends of Education and the WISD Board state the it takes a millage to education our children. I guess they are only interested in some children. During the two years this millage has been discussed what did WISD leaders do to change the law that prohibits distribution of enhancement millage funds to public school academy students? This inequitable situation could have been resolved with a legislative fix or even a letter opinion by the Michigan Department of Education. It is likely there could be a successful challenge to this Michigan law if the enhancement millage passes. In general, I am in favor of providing additional funding for public school students in Washtenaw County, but I am not in favor of denying public funds to public school students who happen to be attending the fastest growing segment of public education in Washtenaw County -- public school academies. It's a denial of equal protection, plain and simple and it's not right.

braggslaw

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 5:03 p.m.

sh1, How is eliminating MESSA right wing? Eliminating union interests is important to getting the most services out of your tax dollars. Unions are created to distribute money from those who earned it to those who did not. The religion/govt issue is antiquated. Let the best schools win in the market place. Let parents choose with the money that is slotted for the public schools. I guarantee the costs will drop and the quality will increase. I am a consumer let me choose.

Larry Kestenbaum

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 4:18 p.m.

Education is labor-intensive. Like it or not, payroll and benefits will ALWAYS be the large majority of school expenses. It's just as true of private schools as public schools.

sh1

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 3:35 p.m.

Braggslaw, I know you bristled at my earlier "right wing" label, but most of the things you are talking about (getting rid of teachers' unions, allowing public taxes to be spent on religious schools, and eliminating MESSA) are all right from their playbook. I don't even have any kids, but I don't resent my money supporting a public education system Thomas Jefferson dreamed of 200+ years ago. Let's not let a poor economy make us turn on each other.

Mumbambu, Esq.

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 3:22 p.m.

All Government employees and teachers should work for free. How dare they expect money in return for services? Who do they think they are? They are fooling no one! The only people who actually deserve money are Doctors and fire fighters! Maybe police officers too, but we all know that they are ALL corrupt anyway.

Laura Bien

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 2:32 p.m.

From a September 14 AnnArbor.com story here: http://www.annarbor.com/news/ypsilanti-schools-seals-deal-with-new-superintendent/ "Under the contract, Martins annual salary will be $140,000, plus benefits. His package includes a $300 monthly stipend for a car and a $75 monthly stipend for a cell phone, a laptop computer and a $2,500 annual bonus if he completes his doctoral dissertation. The district will also pay $800 a month for up to four months to cover temporary housing." I find this utterly ridiculous in this economic climate. With so many losing their jobs, making do on one income (unwillingly), giving up all luxuries and even some necessities, worrying about mounting debt, this package is in my opinion obscene.

dotdash

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 1:50 p.m.

All this anger against local teachers, school districts, and unions is weird. If you are middle class, don't be angry at public education -- that is a force working for you and your kids. Look at the big picture: be angry at corporations who work against your interests, be angry at lobbyists who enrich their clients at your expense, be angry at rich tax cheats -- in short, be angry at the people who really are working *against* you, not the schools that are working *for* you. Also -- $9600 to educate a child in AA? That's a great deal! Everyone is complaining about the cost, but that cost is very reasonable. It's just at the average for the country as a whole, and with that, AA schools deliver a very much above-average product.

Basic Bob

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 1:10 p.m.

Dear teachers, step increases ARE raises. Period. The rest of us stopped talking about effective pay cuts a long time ago, because we have experienced ACTUAL pay cuts: Making actually less dollars than before. Working more and getting paid less. Having our medical benefits decimated and retirement taken away. Seeing our coworkers walked out on Friday with a box of personal possessions. Tenured teachers and administrators have jobs for life or get buyouts. The rest of us are regularly replaced by younger workers making less money. So, what makes you different from any other skilled worker?

braggslaw

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 12:50 p.m.

sh1, Most people in Michigan took a pay cut and a substantial portion lost their jobs. I think boo-hooing a pay freeze when the cost of living increased zero percent is disingenuous. My problem with teachers unions is that they believe they are entitled to certain things and there is no market feedback or real alternative to public schools. Almos all the funding for public schools is pay and benefits. I am financing a defined compensation pension plan for teachers when almost no-one in the state gets defined pensions. The teachers are a guild that seeks to increase their wealth based on increased taxes. So get rid of MESSA commonize health care, elimnate the defined pension plan for new hires. Allow parents like me to take their state funding and apply it to parochial schools, charter schools, trade schools, for profit schools etc. I care more about my kid than any teachers union or school administrator so don't worry that the money will not be well spent. (it will).

Taycheedah

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 12:46 p.m.

Hey lisa I went to us inflation calculator dot com and according to that web site the inflation rate for 09 is - 1.3%. Will you be giving the taxpayer a rebate check? I'm so sorry that you didn't get your "step increase" however not getting an increase dosen't count as a pay cut.

sh1

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 12:43 p.m.

"So yes the teacher's unions are my enemy because they want to get better pay and benefits." You know they took a pay freeze in Ann Arbor this year, right? That's what I mean about lack of examples of the power of local teachers' unions.

braggslaw

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 12:38 p.m.

sh1, As a consumer, I want the best education for my children. I do not want a teacher's union or bureaucrat deciding what is best for my kids. When the super-majority of funding for a school system goes to pensions and pay, I am wary of any increase because it is a direct funnel to teachers. So yes the teacher's unions are my enemy because they want to get better pay and benefits. How is that right wing? Should I just say "oh the poor teachers let's give them more money" or should I demand accountability and performance. Times are tough, I see no reason to give money to well paid teachers at the expense of the taxpayers. If teachers think they can goto other states and make more dough... do it. They won't because they are invested in the pension plan and Michigan pays better than the super-majority of states. Nothing right wing about that.

sh1

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 12:29 p.m.

"The teachers unions are the biggest obstacles in educating our children." This is a big right wing talking point, but when it comes to specific local examples people are pretty mum.

braggslaw

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 12:17 p.m.

I don't want to pay teachers any more money, especially with the dismal economic opportunities in this state. Teachers are not a protected class of workers that should be shielded from the economic hardships of the masses. The teachers unions are the biggest obstacles in educating our children. Spare me "the don't pick on teachers" routine. This is all about channeling taxpayer money to teachers. As a taxpayer I do not want to do this, so I will vote No.

Lisa Starrfield

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 11:18 a.m.

EVERY teacher in this district has taken effective pay cuts. This year, my pay is identical to what it was last year despite the fact that I should have had a step increase. In the past, we've increased our duties to avoid laying off teachers, we've cut teacher positions through attrition and we've not had pay raises that meet inflation.

Taycheedah

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 11:16 a.m.

Mytwocents- If you have been working at the same job for 12 years then you have tenure and are NOT part of the real world in any way, shape or form. Also I would like to know how this millage is NOT about teacher pay? Just because noone mentions the elephant in the room doesn't mean it isn't there. I have yet to see where any spokesperson for the county has said that ALL salaries have been cut across the board or where benefit packages have been scaled back in any significant way. I'm pretty sure that the biggest part of every school budget is the payroll.They need to stop hitting the taxpayer with more tax hikes and tighten up their belts. Like I said before, it's time for them to let us know who is more important, the kids or the union.

mytwocents

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 11:05 a.m.

localyolk- I've never heard of a union rep making even close to the amount you mention. My understanding is that the amount they are/ might be paid comes directly from member dues and not the school districts.

DagnyJ

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:57 a.m.

David: I know the data on school building costs exists because I've seen it. Now...whether any school district wants to share is another issue. And I would like to know if part of this millage goes to fund whatever it is that WISD does.

David Jesse

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:55 a.m.

I'll look into how much each district is paying. Here's the chart of how much each district is getting: Ann Arbor 11,209,169 Chelsea 1,805,447 Dexter 2,477,564 Lincoln 3,261,427 Manchester 865,953 Milan 1,778,896 Saline 3,748,612 Whitmore Lake 831,030 Willow Run 1,358,160 Ypsilanti 2,663,743 Total 30,000,000

localyolk

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:53 a.m.

mytwocents: Is is true the local teacher's union rep makes 130K? If so, how is this justified relative to the other financial needs in the system? 130K to rally for bad teachers keeping their job rather than getting fired like the real world?

David Jesse

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:52 a.m.

DagnyJ: I can't tell - from districts audit reports - how much was spent on each school. I can tell you that in Ann Arbor, the district spent $38,064,630 on elementary instruction in the 2007-08 school year. Of that 68.7% went to salaries and 27.7% went to employee benefits. The same year, the district spent $18,621,457 on middle schools. Of that 68.5% went to salaries and 27.3% went to employee benefits. The same year, the district spent $27,897,286 on high schools. Of that, 66.5% went to salaries and 26.7% went to employee benefits. The district had audited expenses of $188,265,886 that year.

DagnyJ

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:50 a.m.

David: Can you also tell exactly what each district will pay into the millage and get from the millage? And what is WISD's cut? I'm sure they're taking some off the top...

DagnyJ

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:41 a.m.

FTR: According to the federal government, the cost of living has risen by 0% this year. So the appropriate raise would be $0. The feds recently announced there would be no COLA for folks on Social Security this year for this reason. David: can you provide or point to some information about spending per building across AAPS and Washtenaw county? I wonder if we are spending enormous amounts for pet schools, or if other districts spend different amounts. Please include teacher pay, admin pay, special transportation (think three buses per hour for students at CHS), operating costs. But not capital budget items. Thanks.

YpsiLivin

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:39 a.m.

In driving past the AA public schools of late, I've found myself admiring their "marquee" signs. I also wonder how much those cost to install and operate, and whether or not they were really necessary. I suspect the total bill for the signs - purchased and installed - runs into six figures. How many text books would that money have purchased? How many programs would that have funded and how were these silly signs justified? Where's the return on them? With ridiculous expenditures such as these, how can the administrators of these school districts really expect the public to believe that they're running out of cash?

mytwocents

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:38 a.m.

No. Not complaining at all. The State requires teachers to continue taking classes in order to renew our teaching certificates. Granted, I don't need to take as many as I do, but I feel my students benefit in the long run. The State of Michigan only requires 6 credit hours per renewal.

a2huron

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:35 a.m.

If people are concerned about this tax increase, they had better circle November 3rd on their calendar and VOTE that day. I can guarantee you that each and every school district employee throughout the county will be there to vote for it that day. If you don't vote, then don't complain.

localyolk

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:28 a.m.

mytwocents: Teachers are not required to take classes every year during the summer, so if you select that if is a personal choice for most of those summers. Personally I would be thrilled to have a job that let me take classes every year! Were you actually complaining about this?

mytwocents

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:21 a.m.

Taycheedah- I appreciated your perspective and have been an active member of the Real World for quite some time now. My point was absolutely NOT to "belly ache," but rather to point out that teacher raises are not the reason for this millage. I don't recall ever saying I was "overworked" and won't be catching up on my sleep over the summer months. I have always worked full time and have been taking classes every year. (Another one of those requirements I mentioned.) I love my job, work hard every day, and chose this career for a reason much greater than my paycheck.

63Townie

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:18 a.m.

The material mailed to the house led me to believe the millage would NOT be a general fund enhancement. Now I find out that's not the case. More of my tax dollars leave Ann Arbor than come back. I'm sorry, but with all the recent tax increases for completely unnecessary things (He-llo! Greenbelt!), my household budget can't tolerate another. Along with many I lost my job; those left are pulling double duty with no increase in pay. I've had to cut back my expenses, it's time local school districts did the same.

a2huron

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:08 a.m.

What non-school millages are up in the next couple years for voters? Any parks millages subject to voter renewal? What about the discussed county-wide Human Services millage? My guess is that if this expensive school millage goes through, voters will never approve another millage in the next few years after they get the shock of paying this tax bill increase. There will clearly be spill-over effects from this millage if it is approved. Winners and losers. First come, first served. The county is lucky it threw in the Act 88 tax increase this month before the vote on the school millage occurred.

Taycheedah

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 10:06 a.m.

Guess what mytwocents, welcome to the real world! People not on the government payroll have been working in a leaner meaner work place for years now.Most don't get raises unless their performance merits it. Not only that but most just got a big pay cut and/or benefit packages slashed or both taken away all together. Don't belly ache to the taxpayer about how over worked you feel. You can catch up on your sleep during the summer months. Immediately trying to raise taxes instead of making hard choices needs to end. These school systems are going to have to figure out how to make due with the money they have.The tax rolls are doing nothing but going down. They need to stand up to the union and make some changes internally.Instead of that, the first thing we taxpayers hear is "But, but it's for the children, you can't deny them can you??". Well I say put the ball in their court. Let's see if it's the children or the union members that are really the most important ones. I'm voting NO on this garbage.

aataxpayer

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 9:49 a.m.

Some simple facts. - Experienced teachers in AAPS get paid about 80K per year. Their pensions are very good when compared to the private sector, but generally not as bad as police and fire union pensions and benefits. Teachers are paid pretty well but certainly not getting rich though teaching. - Taxpayers in the AAPS district are ripped off by the state school tax. My calculation is that we get back on 35% of what we pay (other bloggers say 38%). That is what Prop A did. - Taxpayers in the AAPS district will get back 71% under the WISD millage, and the extra money will stay pretty local (Milan, Lincoln, Willow run will get back over $ 1.60 for every dollar paid, Yspi will get back about 1.30) I'm leaning toward voting YES while still trying to push our legislators to get moving on badly needed reforms.

localyolk

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 9:40 a.m.

I agree with a2huron below--how have school administrators felt the economic pinch like the rest of us? It might be true that teachers are taking on extra work with no extra compensation, but this is true of everyone who has a job in the region right now. Does the local teacher's union rep really make 130K as mentioned earlier? If so, it is time that teacher's unions got in line with the rest of us. I am voting no.

aataxpayer

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 9:28 a.m.

Taxpayers are tired of not being represented during the contract negotiation process with public employees. When I asked why there was not more communication I was given the following response: The Public Employment Relations Act (MCLA 423.210 (1)(e) provides that the labor organization is the sole and exclusive bargaining representative for its employees. It is unlawful for a public employer to refuse to bargain collectively with the representative of its public employees. In essence we cannot go to the employees directly (and by extension, the public) with our proposals because it can be seen to be cutting the bargaining representative out of the process. See, for example, Jackson County and POAM, 18 MPER 22 where Chairman Lynch said Determining whether direct dealing has taken place is a complex process involving balancing the rights of the workers, the union and the employer. A fundamental inquiry is whether the employer has chosen to deal with the union through the employees, rather than with the employees through the union. Note that taxpayers are not considered by arbitrators or the court. This must stop! Call your representative and demand legislative reforms!

mytwocents

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 9:21 a.m.

I've been teaching for 12 years and have never received a raise that even came close to the cost of living increase. In addition, we settled on a 0% increase this year. While the amount of money coming into districts decreases, the demands on our programs increase. Many of these are state and federal mandates and not funded. I, along with many other staff members, continue to take on additional tasks and responsibilities with no compensation. Our district continues to cut costs and reduce spending on a daily basis. This is a complex issue and not just a matter of how much teachers and administrators are being paid.

dotdash

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 8:57 a.m.

I would like to know more about the percent of the millage that comes back to AA. What I read says that 61 cents on the dollar will come back to AA (the rest to go to other school districts in the county), but I also read that.61 is higher than the regular millage amount that comes back to AA (.38). Can you explain this? Is this.38 the part of AA's property taxes that come back to AA schools or the part that goes to any school that comes back to AA?

a2huron

Mon, Oct 19, 2009 : 8:54 a.m.

I would like to know what school administrators or teachers have taken pay reductions like other public and private sector employees to deal with dimishing budget resources. Any furlough days for administrators? Conversely, over the past two years (while we were in the thick of this economic mess), have any administrators or teachers received pay increases? Or, is the primary solution to budget challenges simply to ask for a huge 2 mill tax increase?