NoVaccines4Me

Sun, Jan 16, 2011 : 10:34 a.m.

Intimidation & Retaliation to Force Vaccination Is Unethical "It is unscientific, irresponsible and a gross waste of health care dollars, especially in these hard economic times, for doctors and scientists in positions of authority to conduct an uncontrolled national medical experiment on the American people by threatening societal sanctions for those who refuse to get a flu shot every year. Firing health care workers, already hit by unemployment, for simply exercising their human right to informed consent to medical risk taking, is unnecessary and unethical. The National Vaccine Information Center, which has defended the informed consent ethic in medicine since 1982, joins with other responsible organizations and enlightened individuals, who oppose use of intimidation and retaliation to force all health care professionals to use influenza vaccine. NVIC continues to call for informed consent protections in all vaccine policies and laws in America, including liberal medical, religious and conscientious belief exemptions to vaccination." For more information go to: http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/September-2010/Forcing-Flu-Shots-on-Health-Care-Workers-Who-Is-N.aspx

Rork Kuick

Thu, Jan 13, 2011 : 12:24 p.m.

Responding to MGRNadvocate, but ignoring some straw men of the last paragraph. That cochrane review also has in main results, using the same studies: 1) "vaccination of healthcare workers reduced influenza-like illness" 2) "showed a reduction in resident all-cause mortality". I admit that the failure to show other differences is a bit distressing, and don't mean to trivialize that. I could question the biases of one of the authors, Tom Jefferson, too. The report may over-emphasize lab-proven flu as the main endpoint, since that may not be what kills you directly, and not everyone who catches flu declares themselves to be sick. All-cause mortality seems a fairly important endpoint, and all of the studies reviewed found differences there. Perhaps some of the causes for that are rather indirect is one possible reason for the apparent discrepancy. There might even be some placebo effects involving the workers - maybe they get more careful after the vaccination campaign. I admit all of the studies have some problems, and we could use better ones. Another weakness of the studies is that in the treated arms, there is not that much more vaccination than in the control arms, since vaxes weren't mandated. Often we don't know how many people got vax in the control arms at all. The power is often weak too, since the flu you vaxed for may not be very prevalent that year (somewhat by luck, but also assisted by lots of people in the area getting vaxed for it that year). We can hope for better data now. Mask wearing certainly is a stick to get you to be vaxed. And it works in that regard. I admit the possibility that it is not the evidence of benefit alone that is motivating heath care systems to adopt mandates, but that it also might be about the money - patients may prefer hospitals with mandates. Besides SHEA recommendations we also have endorsement of mandates from The Association of Professionals in Infection Control, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Physicians, the Infectious Diseases Association of America, the Department of Defense, the National Patient Safety Foundation, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That list from the honor roll at the Immunization Action Coalition, but I figure it is correct. The American Nursing Association has called annual influenza immunization an ethical duty of every nurse. Maybe they are just a bunch of big-pharma shills though.

BR

Wed, Jan 12, 2011 : 4:53 p.m.

The only way to fight a corporation is to organize. If we don't get a union at St. Joe nothing will change.The one thing I have learned from working there 24yrs is they don't care one iota about the worker drones.Now they are going HELP us by vaccinating us,no way.Every decision they make is motivated by money,they have forgotten about their roots.

MGRNadvocate

Wed, Jan 12, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.

As a registered nurse who has never received the flu vaccine and choose not to get one this year I started doing research to defend my decision. First I will start with a comment about Cochrane Reviews. "Cochrane Reviews are systematic reviews of primary research in human health care and health policy. They investigate the effects of interventions (literally meaning to intervene to modify an outcome) for prevention, treatment and rehabilitation. They also assess the accuracy of a diagnostic test for a given condition in a specific patient group and setting." Cochrane did a review titled - Inuenza vaccination for healthcare workers who work with the elderly (Review). Here is what was concluded, "We conclude that there is no evidence that only vaccinating healthcare workers prevents laboratory-proven inuenza, pneumonia, and death from pneumonia in elderly residents in long-term care facilities." Cochrane reviews are well respected in the medical community for their non-biased, evidence based analysis of research. Here is the link to the article for those interested in reading. http://www.thecochranelibrary.com/SpringboardWebApp/userfiles/ccoch/file/CD005187.pdf Another interesting article to consider is the Revised SHEA Position Paper: Influenza Vaccination of Healthcare Personnel. This paper "calls for annual influenza vaccination as a condition of initial and continued employment for healthcare workers (HCWs)." SHEA stands for Society for Healthcare Epidemiology of America. The research in this paper is extremely weak. Many bold statements are made in the introduction that go without citation. A friend of mine contacted SHEA in an attempt to determine how much of their funding came from drug companies. Needless to say, nobody got back to her. The Cochrane review that I previously discuss is mentioned and is not given the weight that it deserves. Mask wearing for those who chose to decline vaccination is discussed as well. Statements are made that support implementation of mask wearing as a scare tactic. "The requirement for mask use may prompt HCP to review more closely the risk-benefit ratio for vaccination and to choose to receive the vaccination." Finally, and most important. 5 of the 9 authors of this paper are consultants, have received research support or have received honoraria from multiple drug companies. It really is highly possible that the push for mandatory vaccination of healthcare workers is a Big Pharma driven endeavor. I just spoke with an infectious disease doctor at my hospital who stated we arent even experiencing an epidemic. Hype and fear created for the sake of profit? Are we sure there aren't going to be any adverse effects of these vaccinations 20 years down the road? Is it fair that I have to wear a mask when providing patient care and 6 family members can stand in a patients room with me unmasked? Not to mention, I have not been sick at all in the last year and I work next to others who have received the vaccine and are sick (with flu like symptoms), but they do not have to wear a mask. Could our healthcare dollars be spent more effectively, fighting actually epidemic medical problems like diabetes and cardiovascular disease? My nursing education taught me one very important thing. Nurses need to be concerned about evidenced-based practice and making and implementing policy based on that evidence. Why is the same standard not applied to our whole healthcare system, especially mandates that directly effect healthcare workers?

Ellen

Wed, Jan 12, 2011 : 1:45 p.m.

Um, "BR" - as a rape survivor, I'm asking you to please consider using a different word. Getting a shot in the arm is a tiny bit different than a violent crime. Mm-kay?

Rork Kuick

Wed, Jan 12, 2011 : 1:31 p.m.

1) This is not about the government. 2) Most places you don't get to choose about being immunized for mumps, measles, rubella, varicella, etc, either. That has not been controversial, and the arguments about flu or pertussis are not essentially different.

NoVaccines4Me

Wed, Jan 12, 2011 : 10:20 a.m.

Think about it, your right to coose complementary medicine is being removed! You no longer have the choice to maintain your health through exercise, optimal nutrition and a healthy weight. I am very healthy and haven't had the flu since I was a child. Why should I get injected with neurotoxins every year? If I get the flu, I'll stay home to protect the patients. Isn't it my right to CHOOSE what enters my body? If we no longer have the right to CHOOSE how to manage our own health, what's next? Will the government TAX our candy bars, pop, fast food and seats in a movie theater? Why not TAX our televisions since watching TV is a sedentary activity that could promote obesity and poor health? I should have the right to maintain my health and prevent illness by handwashing and universal precautions. Botton Line: If you're sick, stay home!

STEPONE

Wed, Jan 12, 2011 : 8:48 a.m.

They'll be coming for you next. May want to read a poem by Martin Niemoller "First They Came".

BR

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 10:02 p.m.

I have worked for St Joey for 24 years,never got a shot never got sick.So now they thrust this policy down my throat and you tell me to just quit dexmom. That is idiotic,there is no limit to what they can do to you NONE! This is like raping me and making me shut up about it. Keep your fluids to yourself and out of me.

dexterreader

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 6:23 p.m.

@dextermom.... agreed on all counts. Why would people choose NOT to protect themselves and others? I don't get it. If you don't like your employer's requirements for employment, look elsewhere.

tracyann

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 2:31 p.m.

@Rockytop: most things in a hospital are not sterile, but clean. There is a difference. There are procedures which require do set-up of a sterile field and sterilized equipment, but most units themselves are not sterile. I did my nursing clinicals at U-M and the reason they gave for staff (at least the nurses) wearing masks if they choose not to get the vaccine is not just to protect themselves but also to protect passing things on to others. However, I don't think it's right that St. Joe's fired that nurse. If others can refuse due to religious beliefs or whatnot, then are they reassigned or still allowed to perform patient care?

LilBoPeace

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 2:04 p.m.

Flu vaccines take over 6 months to make so manufacturers must guess in January what strains of flu virus will be active in October. Sometimes they do get a good match...other times, not so much. It's a guessing game...but no matter, whether the vaccine is effective or not, the drug companies get paid. Flu vaccines contain mercury and formaldehyde and have been linked to Alzheimer's and other neurological disorders.

Deborah

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 12:17 p.m.

Very 'Big Brother!'

Rork Kuick

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 11:59 a.m.

Here's a double-blind, randomized trial of flu vaccine for the person who claims they don't exist - PMID:20236548. I admit they are uncommon though, since they usually can't be approved as ethical. How about last year's paper where several Hutterite communities were randomized and kids got flu vaccine or placebo? PMID: 20215608. That was even covered in the press (search Hutterite vaccine). Oh, here's a pretty famous randomized study of vaccinating health care workers: PMID: 8985189. That was in long-term geriatric care sites. It worked. It worked better than vaxing the patients. It's not the only such study, and it makes it clear that not being vaxed means you can expect to help kill people. They may not like that. Doubting efficacy of polio vaccine is a new one for me. It's a good example of a trial that would be unethical to perform.

Jake C

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 11:35 a.m.

@Stepone: " Next I will be asked to give up a kidney because I have two for the reasoning of the afore mentioned." As all the right-wing proponents should argue, you have the choice of working for any specific company. If you don't want to get a vaccine, or participate in a union, or donate a kidney or whatever, go work for someone else and let the free-market sort it out. And if you have an immune system so weak that you get ill for a week from a flu vaccine, maybe you shouldn't be working at a hospital. @Ian: "How many patients have died from contracting a virus from healthcare worker? Not many. " And what's your source for that information? Huge numbers of people with compromised immune systems die from things like MRSA and the flu, which can easily be contracted at a hospital. You know that upwards of 50,000 people die each year from influenza, right? @mrhizel: "Instead, what we have with vaccination, despite "expert" rhetoric, is truly a FAITH BASED, INVASIVE MEDICAL ritual." I think you need to think a little harder about the difference between medical science and faith.

Rockytop

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 10:34 a.m.

A hospital is an environment in which the employees take great care in making sure things are clean and sterile. Using gloves, masks, and even gowns when in situations that could contaminate themselves or others. Cleaning rooms and tools when completed, changing linen between each patient, cleaning pens, doorknobs, lightswitches, clipboards, etc Workers that work in surgery are in a sterile environment. What people dont realize is that hospital workers tend to have stronger immune systems than most. The workers dont transport these illnesses anymore than the everyday Joe that comes into a hospital. In fact I would trust a hospital workers hands to be cleaner than the bank teller that is handing me my money, or the cashier at the grocery store handling my food. Think about when you put your mouth on a pop can. Do you know where that has been? Do you know the hands that have been on it? No, you pop the top and away you go. However because someone that works in a hospital and that has maybe come in contact with someone with the flu they are going to automatically give a patient the flu? Come on people think about it. Think about what you come in contact with everyday that is full of germs. Hospitals arent the only place with germs!

krc

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 10:27 a.m.

Lorrie G: I was hoping someone would mention that there are people out there who get sick from the flu vaccine. I am one of them. I got sick for a week three years in a row after receiving the flu shot, so I no longer get it. My Doctor's nurse poopooed the idea that the vaccine made me sick, said I proboably caught a bug. I got the same symptoms all three years, so, no...

STEPONE

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 9:39 a.m.

For company APPEARANCE the ability to dictate what you wear or act at a place of employment is one thing, but when corporations are able to dictate to you what you put in your body......well folks we are in big trouble. For the betterment of patient safety and community well being? Next I will be asked to give up a kidney because I have two for the reasoning of the afore mentioned.

tracyann

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 9:17 a.m.

@Ignatz: You are correct. If you get the vaccine you are given a sticker to put on your ID badge. If not, you have to wear a mask if you perform any patient care. To others who ask about why patients and visitors aren't required to get it: patients and visitors aren't going from room to room caring for various patients who have various health problems. Hospitals are germy places by nature which is why health professionals use standard precautions. The vaccines are just another line of defense towards the spread of infectious diseases and illness.

racerx

Tue, Jan 11, 2011 : 3:01 a.m.

As an African American, one word: Tuskegee.

Ian

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 11:15 p.m.

How many patients have died from contracting a virus from healthcare worker? Not many. How many patients have died from prescription drugs? 110,000 a year (per Columbia University). Add vaccines and you are probably looking at twice as many deaths with many more with long term health problems.

dianebee

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 10:16 p.m.

I would be interested in hearing from the nurse who chose to lose their job rather than to be vaccinated. Even in an environment loaded with germs and illness. Not even to protect themselves! I don't get the flu shot, and haven't had a pertussis vaccine since childhood. I am a healthy adult(58) and don't get any viruses or bacterial illnesses so I prefer to keep my immune system healthy. My husband, who has lung disease, does choose to get all the current vaccines-at the request of his doctors. Mine suggest that I don't. If I felt I were putting anyone at risk, believe me, I would be happy to get the vaccines. I have seen how often they don't work, and I don't want to risk my health at this point.

LiberalNIMBY

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 9:38 p.m.

There is irrefutable evidence that vaccinations cause the death of infants every year, while the science supporting them is weak. http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index Do you know how many "mandatory" vaccinations have been taken "off the list" over the past 20 years because they killed too many babies? And do you notice how they're always replaced by other "must have" shots? It's (almost) funny how people don't doubt what comes out of the mouths of doctors, as though they're somehow not influenced by big pharma money. You think the coal and oil industries have legislators in their pockets? Pharmas got legislators AND scientists! I'll bet vaccine manufacturers are creaming themselves over this hospital mandate, hopeful that this kind of unsubstantiated policy spreads nationwide. One the other hand, you've got to give them credit -- they're finally getting some money back from a state that's notorious for questioning the need for so much of their product.

jns131

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 9:02 p.m.

I just wanted to agree with a few points here. My spouse got the flu shot? Was out sick for 2 weeks. Gee I guess the flu shot really works doesn't it? Our 6 month old? Got the chicken pox vaccine? I told em dead not alive? They gave her the live virus and she came down with it 3 weeks later. I told everyone know what they did to my child. Lawsuit haven. Vaccines do not work on everyone. Get real and then get a lawyer. I did.

jns131

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 8:55 p.m.

Can we say "blink"? Man did these workers get the fear of god in em. Now, what about the other 4%? I always wondered what St Joe would do if they all got fired? Now that would be a show. Sad to see a day St Joe wins and workers loose. Good luck to the fired employee I hope she gets her day in court.

Sealed

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 8:49 p.m.

Ummm is this not America? Land of the Free? Oh yeah that's right...it's not really. They just want us to believe that it is. Things like this person being fired for refusing this flu shot is another example of forced regulations. When it comes to a persons own body they have the right to refuse and should not be penalized if they feel it is a danger to their health. Besides...if everyone is vaccinated what are they so afraid of? The vaccine is going to protect them from the wonderful flu after all! Good for whomever it was for standing up for their right to refuse tyranny. I don't have a problem with anyone that wants the vaccines but for those people that do not want it they should not be treated like a criminal. They did nothing wrong. They made a choice to opt out. If the hospital wanted to give them just a dose of arsenic because they say it's safe are you just going to happily believe everything they say? Absolutely not! Everyone has the right to refuse these shots and should not be put in a position to where they are forced to choose between their health and a job! Regardless of what the hospital believes is healthy,etc. People so happily give away their rights in this country and whomever this person is that lost their job...they need support for standing up for their right.

Townie

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 7:45 p.m.

mhirzel: the studies you cite (2) are really studies. If you don't want a flu or whooping cough shot then that's your right. But if you work in a hospital it's not your right to infect sick patients. Based on your logic we should just skip all vaccinations and see what happens. We all know what would happen. I'm old enough to remember polio and the polio vaccine was a modern medical miracle. I remember kids in iron lungs. Do you want to go back that age?

Ann English

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 7:20 p.m.

So there were 81 cases of pertussis in 2009 and 232 through December 20? I would have liked to know about the spreading pertussis in our area before getting a tdap vaccine myself last fall; when I called requesting a flu shot, they told me to get a tdap vaccine during the same visit without giving me any reasons why. As for the tetanus, I only got them before last fall in response to deep cuts.

Lorri G.

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 7:12 p.m.

For the people who say "just get another job", don't be ridiculous. In this economy, how easy do you think that would be? I was forced into these vaccines and am very bitter and angry about it but St Joe got their way. Also, there is no recourse if you get ill from these shots. They make you sign a piece of paper and if something happens to you it is your problem.

treetowncartel

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 5:49 p.m.

If they make accommodations for religious and medical reasons, e.g., allowing the employee to wear a mask, the policy is should be allright. A nursing union in WA fought a mandatory policy citing a failure to bargain over a mandatory subject of bargining. while it was determined to be a mandatory subject of bargaining, the end result is that and as long as the accommodations are given to those who request one properly, the employer can have this type of policy. If there is no union at the respective employer, it can be implemented without bargaining. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-09-16-flu-doctors_N.htm

dfossil

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 5:22 p.m.

I have worked in Hospitals and it was voluntary for Flu shots which I always got and it WAS ALWAYS PAID FOR BY MY EMPLOYER, without question. Same for TB testing, etc. These are just the cost of doing business. I'm now retired and I WISH I could get the shot for Whooping cough but I'm too old for the vaccine they say

CobraII

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 5:18 p.m.

Too bad, so sad; get a job somewhere else. If your employer wants you to wear pink slipper & a too too, that's what you do if you want to work there!

Bob Krzewinski

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 5:16 p.m.

Something to ponder though... If the medical staff has to vaccinations, shouldn't a hosptial also require that patients, and visitors, also have the same vaccinations?

dextermom

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 4:56 p.m.

I don't get it. People have choices - if you don't like your employer's regulations, quit. Find another job you are more comfortable with. I really appreciate health care staff who put my needs above their own. And I want them to be vaccinated.

A2transplant

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 4:41 p.m.

Okay, well, since the medical and drug industry is so dead certain on the effectiveness of this flu vaccine (never mind the various strains) to the extent that a clinical worker will be FIRED for refusal, then to all of you who took this vaccine, please be SURE to sue the hospital if you fall ill with the flu this season. After all, this isn't faith-based science. I LOVE guarantees in this world of medical PRACTICE. This isn't medical PRACTICE, this is medical FACT!

Rork Kuick

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 3:53 p.m.

Protects against "cellular pertussis" seems garbled. Perhaps "pertussis (a bacteria)" would do. The terminology about acellular or not comes from the fact that the current vaccine is not made from the whole bacteria, as it used to be. Now it's purified and possibly modified components of the bacteria. (It's tricky. CDC website has details.) It's not as good for creating immunity, but the old version had too many adverse events. Help others and get the little jab.

BobR

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 3:43 p.m.

While you always want to accomodate people's faiths, etc., maybe there should be a hospital that is strictly faith based. No blood transfusions for certain faiths, putting your hands on the head and saying "heal" when they have cancer. I really prefer if I need to get medicine that the provider is using the best available science and not giving me care based on what chapter they read in Scripture that morning.

Andrew

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 3:37 p.m.

I'm not a huge fan of getting shots either, but the argument for health care professionals to get it is pretty strong. What is the argument against it, and why would you loose your job over it? Or is this just a right argument, and has nothing specifically to do with the shot itself?

Ignatz

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 3:09 p.m.

From what I know, the employees of U-M's health system must wear masks if they don't opt for the paid-for for vaccine.

ummmm......

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 3:04 p.m.

"Did the hospital pay for the vaccinations?" Yep...didn't pay a penny.

lumberg48108

Mon, Jan 10, 2011 : 2:54 p.m.

Did the hospital pay for the vaccinations? I think that might be a key part of any union-based resistance, which I heard on WWJ radio was evolving...