BHarding

Wed, Feb 23, 2011 : 12:33 a.m.

To ssbuilder: My point earlier, when including the Code of Ethics, was that psychologists need to report actual crimes such as child molestation, but homosexuality is not a crime in this country. Public Universities must follow our anti-discrimination laws, because it is the law. Not much wiggle room there. I agree with other posters that a Christian University or college would be a better place for this particular student.

Tony Livingston

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 5:19 p.m.

So your whole argument is based on the world's major religions? That is problem with religions. There is no thinking or rationality. If you want to propose an argument, I would love to hear it. But the bible thumping doesn't hold up.

MiSola

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 5:14 a.m.

But at the end of the day, perhaps it's best to be magnanimous, generous and easily forgiving of the lady and all people who have the right to their own personal belief systems. After all, we're only ordinary men.

ShadowManager

Mon, Feb 21, 2011 : 3:49 a.m.

EMU made one BIG mistake...they should have assisted Ms. Ward in transfering to a private religious university of her choice as fast as they were able. Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina would have been a good choice. She could practice her brand of "counseling" from a Biblical perspective, free from judgment, with lots of likeminded classmates and professors. Or perhaps Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. Anywhere but a public university.

jpgreen3

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 10:20 p.m.

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and to live their personal lives as they see fit. The act of opening your door to the public makes you a quasi-public entity. It obligates you set aside your personal beliefs and serve each person with respect, without regard to their personal choices. You need have only a little knowledge of the context both Christ and Mohammad taught from to see that the most prevalent conversations from those religions today do not represent the spirit of their founders. If your actions with respect to the personal choices of others don't reflect the accepting, supporting and inclusive context described by the phrase "Love One Another", you may call yourself a Christian, but you aren't living like one.

Top Cat

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:30 p.m.

Ms. Ward should end her lawsuit and admit she made an honest mistake in her choice of a profession. She should choose a new profession that will allow her to maintain her integrity, avoid harassment and work with a better class of people.

Halter

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:18 p.m.

As a licensed Psychologist, I strongly disagree with the opinion. Sure, there are religious beliefs that people hold. But the ethics and BYLAWS of almost all professional counseling organizations (including the ACA and the APA), along with the medical professions like the AMA REQUIRE that counselors are able to overlook age, race, sex, sexual orientation, religious belief, etc... Outside of a half-dozen religiously-based private colleges that do not believe in this credo (and hence, their students are not permitted to sit for licensure) all schools and students in the health professions are required to abide by the written credo and rules. I don't hold any disrespect toward the original opinion poster, but both EMU and the ACLU have supported the Law that governs professional counselors. It does not matter what degree of religious vitriol people choose to spew, the laws of the state of Michigan and the national organizations representing health professionals abide by that law. WIthout endorsing that law, the student would not be permitted to serve in the capacity of professional counselor.

bedrog

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 9:08 p.m.

Ward has no right , as a student, to tell her certifying institution what their standards shoud be. Even Josef Mengele and Radovan Karadjic, the hate doctors cited by " demistify" ---with whom i usually fully agree, but not here-- got their degrees before letting the bigotry hang out. Ward should transfer to schools more in keeping with her views...e.g the hobby institutions of jerry falwell or tom monaghan. Then she can get both a counseling degree and certificate of sainthood/martyrdom and her clients---if any-- will know exactly what they're in for. . Win win

Ali Thompson

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 8:03 p.m.

Wow, where do I even start? I guess I'll tear your editorial apart sentence by sentence. "The beliefs alluded to are not Ward's but those of all of the world's major religions and civilized governments throughout history." The beliefs alluded to are claimed by some of the world's religions, but those who follow the faith overall do not necessarily agree. I would also like to point out that many civilized governments have legalized same-sex marriages. Same-sex marriage is legal in Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain and Sweden. "Given the millennia of human wisdom and experience to support those beliefs..." The millennia of human wisdom and experience refer to is not the end all for human progress. Humanity advances by building on previous progress and changing previous rules. Furthermore, these changes are based on new insight into human relations and environment aw well as technological advances, With the recent boom in knowledge about ourselves as a species, I would hesitate to rely on any wisdom or experience that has not been updated over the past few decades. "...one might ask whether it is Ward or the ACLU that is attempting to impose an unsound set of beliefs on clients who come in good faith for counseling." One MIGHT ask that and find that sometimes there is such a thing as a stupid question. It is unlikely that therapists who are accepting of homosexuality will force those beliefs on to others who come in for counseling; unless of course, the client is someone who, while depending on the millennia of human wisdom and experience, becomes uncomfortable with their gay roommate. And in that case, they should get over it or find a new roommate.

demistify

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 6:42 p.m.

There is an excess of "holier than thou" in this discussion. Health professional are human, and they have prejudices. Whatever the oaths and standards, they have included war criminals, from the Nazi doctor Mengele to the Bosnian Serb psychiatrist Karadzic. While it can be considered malpractice to impose those prejudices on a patient, it is acceptable to decline to provide a service on ideological grounds, provided that a timely referral is made to another professional who will. For instance, there are anti-abortion obstetricians; they just do not work for Planned Parenthood. Clearly a counselor that refuses to see homosexuals would limit her employment opportunities, but she could function in an appropriate environment (a religiously affiliated agency where the issue is unlikely to occur).

sbbuilder

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 6:20 p.m.

Let's try again. The word bigot is one who is obstinately and irrationately, often intolerantly, devoted to his own church, party, belief or opinion. I'd say all those tossing around the word bigot are being intolerant in their belief or opinion that others believe that homosexuality is not OK. I would guess that Ms Ward believes that homosexuality is immoral, not simply unethical. You cannot simply separate yourself into different moral compartments.

denise1inaa

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 6:18 p.m.

If you think this is so offensive to god, then let him take care of it, he is certainly capable. In the mean time we have separation of church and state specifically so we do not have to live under some "taliban" like political system in this country. THANK YOU LORD.

sbbuilder

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 6:15 p.m.

The ACLU is totally incorrect in saying that Ms Ward is imposing her beliefs on another. She merely referred this individual to another councelor. How is that an imposition? Also, there are plenty of councelors that believe the same as her. How are they to go through school then? Are all potential councelors who believe that homosexuality is wrong to be excluded from school?

Truffledog

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 6:08 p.m.

Federbush parrots the Christian Right fraud factory fallacy about all religions and societies opposing homosexuality. Nonsense-the European church blessed same sex unions until about the tenth century. Tolerance of many flavors is the sign of a peak of civilization, not hate. She plainly does not know enough history to describe "all history" so she bears false witness. Making up factoids about past millenia is as weak a justification for homophobia as it is for restoring slavery. Hypocrites masquerading as clergy justified apartheid, crushing worker movements, Jim Crow, and other brutalities. Why should their hatefulness trump the gentle followers of a loving God? In a modern civil society we recognize that my idea of religion may conflict with yours so we use secular conventions to set standards of conduct. Licensed Professional Counselors are not required to bed someone of the same sex, just to counsel them. If you cannot do that you are not a professional. A gay teen faces horrific bullying and may present themselves on the verge of suicide. One can help others without "condoning" behavior, but you must validate their reality. Ward's smug refusal to assist them is an attack tantamount to murder. How would Ms. Federbush feel if an EMT decided he could not condone her "christian fascist hypocrisy" and let her bleed out after an accident?

loves_fall

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 6:01 p.m.

She was in a training program at EMU. If she wants to learn to become a counselor of only straight Christian folks, she can go to a private Christian school for that. She has a right, once fully trained and on her own, to counsel or not counsel anyone she wants. But while she's a trainee, I agree that she needs to follow the rules of the program she CHOSE to enroll in, just like everyone else. She should have done her due diligence before signing up with EMU if she had special needs in terms of the clients she was willing to serve. I think the same should go for all trainees in the program regardless of what their particular bias is. If it's out of line with EMU's policies and mission statement and as a result they don't expect to be able to complete the program, it's not a program they should be in.

stunhsif

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 5:19 p.m.

Julia Ward's civil rights most certainly HAVE been trampled upon. Good luck with your case Julea, many of us are cheering for you. If justice prevails, you will win your case. Good Night No Luck Needed

1bit

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.

"The beliefs alluded to are not Ward's but those of all of the world's major religions..." I thought she was going to EMU to get a degree to be a counselor, not a pastor. This topic has been argued ad nauseum on this site and it is beyond me why anyone would support Ms. Ward's dangerous sense of entitlement to dictate the terms of her degree program. Leave to the educators what is theirs and, for those who believe, give to God what is God's.

tim

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 5:08 p.m.

In the real world mental health workers refuses clients all the time - for whatever reason. They'll read a chart and decide thumbs up or down on a new client. I think Ward is wrong in that she singled out gays for judgement when her faith teaches that everyone is in the same boat (sinners). EMU is wrong for singling out Ward on this one issue (if a mental health worker thinks that they aren't able to help someone ). Both sides are hard headed, this thing has gotten way over blown.

a2phiggy

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 4:54 p.m.

I invite the writer to clarify one point: what should minority groups expect when they seek counseling? Admonishment? Racist ideologies? Blatant bigotry? Censure? Perhaps the author could consider the phrase 'There but by the Grace of God go I' and think about all of the circumstances in which her position as a woman should, or should not, affect the ways in which people treat her.

Karen St John

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.

The beliefs of today's civilized governments are in flux, as are the positions of many groups within the major world religions. As for the wisdom of thousands of years...human civilization has been bloody and brutal, often in the name if not the spirit of true faith, for virtually every moment of its existence. Good heavens, there is still blood being shed in the name of god all over the globe. I suspect God is disgusted. If Julea wants to be a pastoral counselor she should go to a pastoral counseling program. She should not kid herself that a profession will change itself just for her beliefs.

Silly Sally

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 4:10 p.m.

"...when you enter a profession, you have to follow the ethical standards of that profession..." Who is to say that the "ethical standards" of the profession are actually ethical? EMU as most homosexuals, does not only want discrimination against homosexuals to end, but for the rest of society to embrace them and accept them. What is next? While some sexual practices may seem extreme today, so was homosexuality a generation or two ago. EMU should allow Ms Ward to decline such a patient instead of pretending to want to serve that patient's interests. If Ms Ward were a Muslim and had refused to serve a homosexual patient or to work on a Friday, EMU would have bent over backwards to accommodate her. Why the duplicity

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 3:16 p.m.

Julia Ward's civil rights most certainly HAVE NOT been trampled upon. EMU, in its professional degree program, is enforcing the professional standards required by that profession. Ms. Ward had a choice: to adhere to the clearly stated standards of her chosen profession, or to adhere to her religious beliefs. She chose the latter. Fine. But she then is manifestly unqualified for the profession she has chosen, and EMU had little choice to do what it has done. Good Night and Good Luck

BobbyTarsus

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 2:43 p.m.

It's sad that the homosexual community preaches tolerance, but only to those who subscribe to their ideology. This is hypocrisy of the first magnitude. They should face the fact that they will never gain 100% compliance to their movement. They accuse Christians of pushing their beliefs upon others, but they do the same. Ms Ward was right to do what she did, in holding to her own principles. Christian bashing has become socially acceptable, while any opposition to "gay rights" is considered hate speech. Too bad the right wingers can't see the hate speech in their own rhetoric. Perhaps they should practice what they preach as well.

MiSola

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 2:29 p.m.

What if a candidate for a counseling degree at held the belief that God hates Christians and refused to counsel Christians for that reason? Since our society respects all individuals and their rights to religious beliefs, are we to reasonably support public educational institutions, with our tax dollars, to license professionals that engage in this type of discrimination?

snoopdog

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 2:24 p.m.

Julea Ward's civil rights have been trampled upon. I will never give another dime to my alma mater. Good Day

tim

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 2:22 p.m.

If you went to a dietician for advice and found out that they were Hindu and would not counsel you if you were not willing to give up meat would you be offended ?

BHarding

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 2:17 p.m.

To sbbuilder, this may answer your question about gray areas, (btw, the majority of pedophiles are not homosexual. Don't equate the two, please.) The American Psychological Associations Code of Ethics states: "In general, this means that communications between clients and therapists are confidential. However, there are exceptions to the rule of confidentiality. Below I have outlined the exceptions, which should be communicated to the client before beginning treatment. Child Abuse: Child abuse reporting laws require therapists to report any information obtained during the course of counseling that suggests a child is currently being abused or is in danger of being abused. Elder Abuse: Similar to the case of child abuse listed above, therapists are required by law to report any information that suggests an elderly person is being harmed or neglected. Dangerousness to Self or Others: Therapists are required under certain circumstances to break confidentiality when a client presents a serious threat to themselves or others. Court Order: Therapists are required at times to disclose confidential information by a court order. In these circumstances, the therapist is ethically bound to state his/her adherence to the ethical guidelines related to confidentiality as defined by the American Psychological Association. Even with a court order, therapists are compelled by the APA Code of Ethics to make every effort to keep information disclosed in the therapy confidential. However, a judge may acknowledge the therapist's commitment to the ethics code and still order the therapist to disclose the information in court. In this case, the therapist would limit the information diclosed only to material pertinent to the court order."

seldon

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 1:52 p.m.

(While we're at it, I think it's sort of appalling that Federbush is willing to dismiss most Western European governments, as well as the ancient Greeks and others she's probably never heard of, as "uncivilized.")

seldon

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 1:46 p.m.

The problem isn't with the ACLU and EMU, it's with the student - and with the author of this editorial, who doesn't understand that, when you enter a profession, you have to follow the ethical standards of that profession. One wonders if the author would also endorse the actions of the paramedic who refused to respond to the Giffords shooting, apparently because of his political beliefs. If she isn't willing to follow the professional standards of the job, she shouldn't be allowed to complete the training program. Bigotry, of the type espoused by Ward and Federbush, should have no place in the world today. Least of all in a profession dedicated to helping people. For shame!

Tom

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 1:45 p.m.

What makes this different from any other professional career? Lawyers can decide to decline a case for *any* reason. So can physicians (except in life-threatening emergencies). The proper course for a therapist who has conflict is to refer the potential patient out. This is what the young lady sought to do. Totally appropriate. EMU and the ACLU are wrong here.

braggslaw

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 1:40 p.m.

all around... what an incredible waste of time and resources.

bob knoska

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 1:09 p.m.

The headline editor sure has this wrong. This woman is absolutely wrong to even think of getting certified, when her beliefs won't allow her to work with people of all walks of life, including the gay community. She is certainly is in the wrong to even waste time applying at a non-religious university to get an education to be a caregiver for all. Sadly, all too many in our country would welcome her beliefs.

bedrog

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 12:56 p.m.

oy!! Sorry Laurel. For once in recent years the ACLU is right. I may even reinstate the membership I let lapse after the group started supporting the spewing "rights" of hate speechers in Skokie and closer to home -- the few whose "consciences" about what is "just" are very badly askew..

A2Dave

Sun, Feb 20, 2011 : 12:51 p.m.

Whether or not various religions hold with this bigot's beliefs is irrelevant--in the 19th century, in America, most Christian Churches held that Blacks were inferior, that racial inter-marriage was a sin, that churches should be segregated, etc., etc. So what? It is still morally wrong and discriminatory for a caregiver to deny service to a patient on the basis of the provider's personal religious beliefs. Period. If you cannot, get into another career--like staff writer for Fox News.