C.

Wed, May 19, 2010 : 10:18 p.m.

Eh, I think that racism is pretty rampant. I'd save the closet metaphor for other issues.

mike from saline

Wed, May 19, 2010 : 12:42 p.m.

@C, Off course you wouldn't be surprised if racism were a factor in the playground assault in Saline. Judging by the rest of your comments, I'm sure you see racism lurking in every closet, and hid- ing under every leaf.

C.

Wed, May 19, 2010 : 12:07 p.m.

I wouldn't be surprised if racism was a factor in the playground assault. It's everywhere. This incident happened a day or two before one of my colleagues/friends learned that a white student in her daughter's kindergarten class told the daughter that he could be "mean to her because of her color." This did not happen in Saline. It is a sin that it happened. Now my friend's kid, through no fault of her own, has had a seed planted in her mind that the color of skin means she is a potential target of meanness. My point, really, is this -- children in Saline or in my friend's community are not being raised in a vacuum. There are some seriously angry people living in our communities. Given that anger is almost always connected to fear, I wonder what we are afraid of... and what we are teaching our children to fear? I'd bet some serious money that white people are afraid of losing their white privilege. It's a hornet's nest that's been stirred up by the election of Barack Obama and the economy and probably lots of other things that I can't even identify. I hate the idea that we are teaching our kids that when they are afraid, that they should lash out in violent actions or words (toward other people or toward themselves). To the parents and family of the kid who was assaulted -- I stand with you. Your kid has and had the right to an education free from violence. I make no excuses for the kids who assaulted your child (and will not attempt to rationalize/minimize their behavior) -- not the school's budget problems, not how "nice" and "friendly" the residents of Saline are, nor Saline's racial diversity as compared to Farmington Hills, nor racial intolerance of foreign-born residents, nor professional tribalists, or political correctness. The assault was wrong and I'm sorry that your family has had to deal with it.

Me Next

Wed, May 19, 2010 : 11:21 a.m.

Not knowing the facts, this is a blind opinion: Children conspiring & working together to "bother" another child is really part of life & no indication of "racial intolerance". I've read 2 factors (the headband & the word "slave"). The only abnormal behavior I read was the "mob mentality attack". The headband - what was it & what did it symbolize? The word "slave" seems to be connected to the headband "group". Seems that wasn't racial just competition. The gang assault shows a lack of identification with individual identity among the members of the "gang". For whatever reason they worked as one to harm for no good reason. This is seen in groups of the same race, same sex, & mixed as well. It's not really new, it's just practiced by more children for the past few years. Not excusable but my theory is it stemmed or received it's growth from the zero tolerance National Mandate. Examine cases that have gone to the Local School Board where some degree of violence have occurred. Along with no reduction in aggressors came "helpless victims" (self imposed because of law abiding character) & very cautious therefore silent uninvolved "Civil Society". Where is the racial division coming from? It certainly has nothing to do with ability to learn. There are some with physical limitations in all races & limits to compensation varies. It was the focus of this group to present "Superior Power" which in reality was Extreme weakness. This group needs an educational goal for natural competitive desire. "fails to...cultural...". Public Schools' only purpose is to make available the opportunity to take advantage of acquiring what is Individually, locally, State, & nationally needed to maintain strong & productive society. Culture is not a factor in learning. Discipline & applying one's natural ability to learn are the factors. Enforcing Our sovereign nation's Immigration Laws is Responsible Citizenship. Complaining & distorting AZ Facts does not show Respect for Law. I believe that the adults present where a child was hitting a penota with AZ Governor's face on it, was contributing to the delinquency of a minor & encouraging Lawlessness. Illegal means unlawful entry foreign citizen & technically is an invasive act. MX is NOT a poor country. Ann Arbor is at least making a good faith effort to report & openly discuss opinions & possible solutions. I respect aa.com"s ownership of the site & probable regulations they abide by but when I see a post removed it takes info from this community & silences a voice. Individuals engaging each other can be quite revealing. As Congress is protected from accountability for anything they say in session (their vote is an action & not protected unless listed/enumerated), productive debate/discussion by citizens must be able to speak freely without fear of retribution. You end with a pretty picture with underground & unrepresented society.

stunhsif

Wed, May 19, 2010 : 1:09 a.m.

Oh David and Tigger ( aka Mr. Murrow), Give us a break. You are above the fray, for any kind of off color joke whether it be a "polish Joke", a " Dutchman joke" or an "Italian joke". Heavan forbid us "white folks" can make fun of ourselves??? Why can black folks call themselves the "N" word but I cannot call myself a "crout" because I am half German??? No "code" there at all my friend, grow up!

Technojunkie

Tue, May 18, 2010 : 2:14 p.m.

Diversity, multiculturalism, etc as implemented are divide and rule strategies to keep people in separate warring groups, tribes writ large. Tribalism is unhealthy for representative government, as we've relearned over the past several years overseas. It's a great way to control large groups of people though. In America it's used to coerce major ethnic groups to vote a certain way, except for whites where it's considered racist to notice any of this. By focusing on race we sharpen divisions, making everyone recognize and modify their behavior in order to protect themselves. In my case we moved, as did many others. That's the rational response to a no-win situation. It would be better to simply treat everyone equally, meaning enforce discipline equally in this Saline case, and place greater emphasis on a common American culture rather than hype hyphenated American nonsense but that would mean many entrenched interests giving up a great deal of political power. It would make for a healthier democracy though.

David Briegel

Tue, May 18, 2010 : 2:06 p.m.

We love to disagree. We disagree all the time. You see, we grew up just like you with the same racist and bigotted behavior being exhibited by the "adults" in our lives. It used to be Polish jokes or Italian jokes or Dutchmen jokes and always the racial jokes and stereotyping. We know it when we see it. We know it when we hear. We know the code. We were there. We lived it! Some of us advanced past that and some of us had hoped that our society had progressed. It is quite obvious that hasn't occurred. The laments of the poor, downtrodden, discriminated against majority of white people is pretty hard to accept or justify. And now they are emboldened and demand that a civil society tolerate their intolerance. Whether it is a half White, half Black President, a minority in schools or illegals, the vocal minority of the majority will try to "return to the good old days of yesteryear" when the righteous were silent all too often. Life was so much simpler then. Just remember, we know the code!

mike from saline

Tue, May 18, 2010 : 12:28 p.m.

@ Tigger, all you've done is show how dishonest you are. You have created a couple of "straw man arguments" based on what you think we [TechnoJunkie and myself] mean, as opposed to what we actually said. This is typical "thought police" tactics. Note to TechnoJunkie: Always remember rule # 1, when dealing with Tigger and his playmate's. Definition of a Racist; Anyone who dis- sagrees with a liberal. Thank you for lettin me clear that up. Carry On, Mike

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Tue, May 18, 2010 : 9:43 a.m.

@Ram, My extended reply was removed for some reason, so I'll make this brief. My statement is based on what technojunkie wrote, nothing more. It expresses a disdain of diversity to the point that he moved to Saline to escape "tribalists". "Mike from Saline" appears to agree with technojunkie's post. As I do not live in Saline, I take their word for their description of Saline as not being diverse. If Saline truly is diverse, someone needs to tell these residents of Saline that it is so. Good Night and Good Luck

GRANDPABOB

Tue, May 18, 2010 : 8:10 a.m.

stunhsif you consider 1972 being and oldtimer, that is still a newcomer in my opinion. I've lived here all but 5 years of my entire life, that is and old time resident. That is from 1946.

Ram

Tue, May 18, 2010 : 7:56 a.m.

"Saline's lack of diversity--racial, intellectual, or otherwise." Can you please explain what is it that Saline is lacking, exactly?

David Briegel

Tue, May 18, 2010 : 6:46 a.m.

Many Technojunkie and/or AnnArbor.com can have a discussion about tribalism and tribalists? Seriously! Edward R is completely accurate in his description.

mike from saline

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 11:33 p.m.

Technojunkie, You hit the nail right on the head! Geat post!

David Briegel

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 8:44 p.m.

Technojunkie, tribalists? Seriously?

Lokalisierung

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 1:43 p.m.

Saline is more than a tinge backwoods so that's just how it goes.

Technojunkie

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 9:09 a.m.

Lucy Ann Lance on the subject of bullying: http://lucyannlance.com/?p=4697

Peacemaker

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 8:49 a.m.

Vicious children are a product of inadequate parenting. Don't blame the teachers who are saddled with the task of trying to teach academics to savages. Exposing the identity of their delinquent parent(s) is the natural remedy it and would promote the public good, if the media could develop the courage to do so.

Salinemary

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 8:47 a.m.

Only the children involved know for sure if this incident was racially motivated. Bullying will not be tolerated in Saline.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 8:15 a.m.

I think technojunkie has inadvertently confirmed Saline's lack of diversity--racial, intellectual, or otherwise. Good Night and Good Luck

Technojunkie

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 7:28 a.m.

I've lived in both Ann Arbor and Saline. We moved to Saline because the neighborhood A2 school was more interested in race than academics and we couldn't afford tuition at Emerson and Greenhills like the pious people who insist on "diversity" in public schools and at the time Saline real estate was relatively inexpensive. I learned to hate hypocrisy from the A2 school system. The sad thing is that if black and white students were treated equally there wouldn't have been a problem. Discipline is not a racist Western concept. How come no one calls for more diversity in Detroit? The last thing Saline needs is to bring in professional tribalists, er, diversity consultants and really screw things up. Treating the victim the same as everyone else would be the most productive thing to do.

walker101

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 7:11 a.m.

Unfortunately with the Immigration law that was passed in Arizona will it only encourage such behavior, not only among adults but children also. Children in most cases are a reflection of their parents and being that the majority of White American fully support this law and could care less about the impact this law has with a Mexican/American they all will be under suspicion of being here illegally. I fully agree that we do need an immigration reform, but this bill states that an officer has to have probable cause before he or she can pull you over? The way they get over this is that if you are by yourself and 2 officers happen to see you it is their word against yours, and you are at the mercy of whatever infraction they accuse of doing, no disputing. I had the pleasure living this nightmare just back in 2008 traveling through Iowa, both probable causes within 45 minutes while traveling on the interstate. I was only given warnings on both occasions, after checking out my record that I had no criminal record or outstanding warrants they then let me continue on my way. Needless to say my demeanor and outlook towards white police officers has since changed, I lost my rights that day only because I was not a White All American, I will always be suspicious of anyone who is in favor of adopting this immigration law, if you do consider yourself a racist, the only way to prevent hatred and racists children in our future is that everyone that treat all equally with respect and dignity. Unfortunately that day may never happen if laws like these are favorably among many states as it now stands, last count as many as 17 states are in favor of adopting this bull. Being born in the US, attending schools in the US, being a Combat Vietnam Veteran, retiring after 34+ years from one Company, and living my life in freedom, never as much having a parking ticket in over 40 years of driving and then loose my rights as an American citizen by being stereotyped as an illegal has only made me resentful towards any police officers. Now we wonder why are children do what they do, this will make all the more acceptable for children to think that by being hateful to any other ethnic race is acceptable.

Kristin Judge

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 6:55 a.m.

As a Saline parent, active volunteer and elected official representing many of the families who have children in the Saline schools, I believe strongly that many of the community members are concerned about the incident that happened. I caution those of you who want to say it was racially motivated without being there and knowing the facts. The incident was inexcusable on many levels, but from the information I have gathered, I do not believe it was racially motivated. We need to be careful with accusations prior to having all the facts. The Saline community cares about kids, all kids! The administration is working hard to make sure the incident is not swept under the rug and our community comes together to talk about it at a community discussion tonight. I moved to Saline for the schools, and I have never regretted that decision.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Mon, May 17, 2010 : 6:32 a.m.

"You folks who don't live in Saline don't have a clue and you need to keep your uneducated opinions to yourself." The same could be said for people who live in Saline and have all sorts of uneducated opinions about AAPS and Ann Arbor city government. Good Night and Good Luck

stunhsif

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 7 p.m.

@happypuppy, "saline has an outsider problem" Absolute rubish I say. Again, I've lived in the Saline School District since 1972 and guess that makes me an old timer. There are far more "new residents" whom you call outsider's than there are old timers like me so don't state that we old timers "run the town". You folks who don't live in Saline don't have a clue and you need to keep your uneducated opinions to yourself. Your comments here are simply rants lacking any factual basis.

Happy Puppy

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 6:13 p.m.

Saline doesn't have a race problem, they have an outsider problem. If you weren't born in Saline and attend Union School for K-12, they don't like you. It would be nice to think that the 'new' people have a say in what goes on, but they really don't. Old time Salinians want it all to go back the way it was in the 1980s before subdivisions poped up and wrecked their little hamlet, but unfortunately it can't be undone. A little acceptance and ability to move forward would go a long way to make all races, cultures and lifestyles be accepted. BTW - I blame the Heritage inceident on the students' parents, not on the school. The other 800 kids there didn't pile on did they? There are always troublemakers in schools and that will never change, no matter how many teachers are on the playground or counselors in the clasroom.

space cowboy

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 2:47 p.m.

Why do we immediately have to jump to the conclusion that any incident between different cultures is always race related? We read a couple brief remarks regarding this fight and assume that everything occurred becasue its a black vs. white issue. "Comments were made"... Stupid things are always said during fights. Its the nature of fighting... its stupid. It usually has nothing to do with race. While in no way am I trying to deny the existence or seriousness of racial injustice, condoning fighting or bullying, etc.. but to suggest that we all need to flock to this meeting to prove we are concerned about racism and inequality is nonsense. Let the administrators take the appropriate action necessary. If the parents of the children involved feel justice was not served, then I am sure they will take action and we as a community will hear more facts the incident and be able to make a better informed judgement.

TIGERS68

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 2:22 p.m.

What you have here is two-fold, parents that are no longer instilling value in their children and a school system the cries zero tolerance for physical abuse, but nothing for the mental abuse, that by the way, if had been addressed earlier, may have prevented this 7 on 1 attack. If the school system would open their eyes and realize that mental abuse is the precursor to physical abuse and address this problem most of your "school yard" fights would not occur. It seems that it's ok to mentally torture a kid without any punishment and this is where the problem lies. Parents need to tell their children that mentally abusing others is as wrong as phyically abusing them and the school system needs to start disciplining those that are guilty of it. Nobody seems to understand that these stories we hear of kids shootin' up schools, committing suicide, etc. are those same kids that were continueously verbally abused to the point that they snapped and decided enough was enough and went to the extreme of shooting their tormentors or killing themselves. You can have all the forums you want but it's just lip service. When you start holding parents responsible for the actions on their delinquent children, watch how fast "Johnny becomes a good boy" and when school systems start facing lawsuits for failure to protect the students, watch how fast verbal/mental abuse is added to their so-called zero tolerance package.

UWM

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 1:42 p.m.

Unless and until we can have an honest, open discussion re. race, where not only the politically correct point of view (POV), but also those of us who don't agree with the simplistic, PC status quo POV can speak openly and honestly without being censored, shouted-down, called "racist" and other epithets, no progress can be made. I grew up in Ann Arbor and am ashamed at the disgrace it has become: what I see now is that Ann Arbor and the surrounding communities are some of the most intolerant and closed-minded places I've ever been, and I've lived in Texas, California, New York and other more racially- and ethnically-diverse locales. I've made heartfelt, impassioned comments on other threads re. race that dare challenge the PC mindset and have had them deleted. I'm sick of this. There's no point in discussion when all that's allowed is one-sided pieties and platitudes extolling the virtues of the PC status quo. As long as PC-ness remains the unchallenged and unchallengabe orthodoxy, you people are doomed to simply go round and round with this sort of thing. Good luck to you all - frankly, you deserve the mess you have because you've let it get to this point, and frankly, I don't care anymore.

81wolverine

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 1:39 p.m.

The Saline playground incident may have simply been an isolated event and not related to the "racial insensitivity" of the community. Still, it's always a good idea to use this type of incident as an opportunity to evaluate if there ARE areas the community can improve in. One area to look at is the on-site supervision at the school, to see if teachers and volunteers are doing enough to identify potential problems before they get serious.

Macabre Sunset

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 1:26 p.m.

According to city-data.com, Saline is 31.4% German, 18.0% English, 15.4% Irish, 7.0% Polish, 6.0% French and 5.4% Italian. And that covers just over 4/5 of the population. Seems quite ethnically diverse to me. As someone with a completely different ethnic background, I find it offensive to be lumped in with those of other backgrounds simply because I happen to have lighter-colored skin. There are many reasons to live in Saline besides ethnic backgrounds: Low crime, solid schools, proximity to Ann Arbor. Why assume the worst of people? Especially since they are encouraging the prosecution of this criminal behavior, to the point of allowing the judicial system to process the case. They are taking a stand against violence. If only every district in the area treated every incidence of violence as seriously.

Basic Bob

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 12:46 p.m.

Even as highly educated not-exactly-white people move in, the intolerance is likely to continue. Racial diversity is not a value that is widely held in Saline, and it attracts people of like minds. In my experience, foreign-born residents are not any more racially tolerant than the natives.

a2citizen

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 12:21 p.m.

Ms. Hartman, you relocated from a town that is 95 percent white to a town (Farmington Hills) that is 83 percent white. So is 83 percent white providing you with the racial diversity experience you crave? Out of curiosity what's the magic number, if there is one, that triggers a racially diverse experience? I think the parents of Saline kids are doing just fine when it comes to instilling values in their children. I don't read about any drivebys (like my old neighborhood) and I do not see a lot of graffiti spray painted on buildings as I drive through town. The children involved will be appropriately punished and, hopefully, they will learn their lesson. And a field trip to Farmington Hills for some racial sensitivity training is definately in order.

DLRomero2

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 12:02 p.m.

Ms. Hartman has hit the nail on the head. As a former student of SAS, I too have witnessed school board meetings fill to capacity over extracurricular activities and other non-essential reasons. Saline and its residents sometimes have a way of placing blinders over their eyes when it comes to racially founded topics. They prefer to meet the minimum standards in order to make anything that may be perceived from the outside world look neat and orderly. It is true that enrollment of minorities over the years has increased, but it is also true that racial acceptance and understanding over the years has not kept pace. In my experience, many Saline residents balk at true minority inclusion in the community. Residents are quick to point out the 4.31% of the population who are not white. They wear the number as a badge signifying multi-cultural and ethnic diversity. At the end of the day, there fails to be any effort in teaching acceptance of this cultural diversity. I have heard far more racial epitaphs in Saline than I have heard excitement over a minority moving into the neighborhood. I can recite many negative conversations over-heard about Wal-Mart moving into town. These conversation did not center around the politics of the company, but instead focused on the skin color of the employees that would be contained within its walls. Does this sound like acceptance and understanding to you? Children are the best mirror of society. With this in mind, I sincerely hope that tomorrow's school board meeting will result in seminars and great efforts to properly equip residents with tools for acceptance and self-reflection. It is incredibly unfortunate that in a city with so many intelligent, capable and forward-thinking people that this conversation needs to occur.

SalineMom

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 11:07 a.m.

@Dr. I. Emsayin I've lived in Saline for 18 years and I never noticed that we weren't always eager to welcome those of diverse backgrounds into our community. Your comment is unfounded and insulting to the residents of this community.

whyohwhy

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 10:14 a.m.

The budget problems have taken counselors out of schools. While this doesn't reduce anyone's responsibility, it does explain why the problem might not have been addressed prior to the playground incident. As budget concerns increase class size and reduce support personnel, it will be increasingly important that we as parents listen to our children and be proactive.

stunhsif

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 10 a.m.

Saline has a lot of racial diversity right now. I have lived in Saline since 1972 and the diversity today is much higher than when I moved here. Look at any high school yearbook from the past 10 years and you will note that Saline has a lot of Asian, East Indian and other highly educated minorities. They moved to Saline for the same reasons that most others do and that is for the small town atmosphere,low crime rate, and good public schools. While there are not a lot of black children in the Saline Schools, I don't believe for a second that Saline is a "culturally intolerant" small community. We all agree that violence as happened recently cannot and will not be tolerated.

Michigan Frontiersman

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 9:47 a.m.

I'm not a resident of Saline, nor do I know the details about the playground attack, but I am very aware that cultural intolerance is very prevelant in our small communities. I grew up in a small town and was very sheltered from the racial diversity that's common in larger towns. In school it wasn't uncommon to hear very negative comments about non whites from my peers. I was exposed to family affairs where racist comments were often uttered by my elders. This certainly isn't just a small town problem, but the lack of exposure to others who are different makes it more difficult for young people to differentiate between the rhetoric and the reality. Small communities need to do a better job of recognizing all the different cultures that live within their boundries, and schools need to do a better job of recognizing racist undertones among their students. As a recently graduated teacher I have been in many classrooms across Washtenaw county as a substitute teacher. I have heard many more racist comments in the small communities than in the larger ones. I hope that the Saline community can come together to address whatever may have happened, and that small communites across the State of Michigan will hopefully follow their lead.

Dr. I. Emsayin

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 8:39 a.m.

I have heard that Saline residents are eager to bring more racial diversity into their community. I applaud their efforts to reach out and invite those of diverse backgrounds to become their neighbors. This will certainly help the children understand those who appear different through growing up with trusted friends and neighbors who are their friends.

seriously

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 7:34 a.m.

Thank you, Taryn, for clearly stating what we, here in Saline, all need to hear and think very seriously about. This is a community problem, and we need to quit the name calling and blaming, and stand together to fix it.

braggslaw

Sun, May 16, 2010 : 7 a.m.

It was a horrible incident. As a parent I would be outraged if my out-numbered child was repeatedly kicked while he was down. The kids who committed the act need to understand that there is no justification for committing that type of abuse. Ultimately this is a failure in supervision.