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Posted on Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 2:41 p.m.

Governor explains rationale behind 'tough calls' he's made to address state budget deficit

By Ryan J. Stanton


Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder, speaking today at the annual Outlook luncheon at Washtenaw Community College.

Lon Horwedel |

Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder told an audience of 300 local business leaders today he's had to make some "tough calls" to close a $1.4 billion state deficit for next year.

"Personally, these calls are difficult calls because you are impacting people's lives, and you are causing issues with people," he said. "But one of the things I'm proud to say is we stopped thinking short-term and we stopped thinking just about today."

Snyder's comments came during the Business Review's Economic Outlook Luncheon at Washtenaw Community College.

The governor explained his rationale behind proposing deep cuts that would impact schools, universities, cities, townships, counties, senior citizens and low-income wage earners, among other groups. He said there's no doubt going to be some short-term pain, but the result is a state budget that is fiscally sound, and that's going to be attractive to businesses.

"Not only is 2012 fiscally sound and balanced — with no accounting gimmicks, no monkey business, a solid budget — but I can look (state lawmakers) in the eye and say, 'With 2012 happening this way, 2013 is also balanced that same way,'" Snyder said. "I don't know of anytime in our lifetime we've had a governor that was able to say that."

Businesses would see a $1.8 billion tax break under Snyder's plan, though many will be impacted by the elimination of specific tax credits.

2011-13 Washtenaw County economic outlook

You can download the University of Michigan's 2011-13 Washtenaw County economic forecast report here.

Read our report about more than 8,000 new jobs forecast for Washtenaw County over the next 3 years.

Follow's Business Review for more coverage of the forecast over the next few days.

Snyder said Michigan needs to change its culture and look at itself through a new lens, one less focused on "me" — "about how I got affected by some budget provision or tax provision or what's in it for me" — and one more focused on a collective "we."

"It's easy to change a law; it's tough to change a culture," Snyder said. "And that's what we need to stay focused on."

During a question and answer session, Snyder addressed proposed cuts to state tax credits, such as the film incentives, saying the dollars could be better spent elsewhere — on items like roads and education. He also spoke generally about why he's so opposed to tax credits, saying they most often go to special interest groups with political clout.

"My view is have them walk in front of the appropriations committee, raise their hand, let democracy work, say why they're special and say why they should be written a check, and let's all know what those dollars are and where they're going," he said. "That's the way we should be running our government — not hiding things."

Snyder discussed his thoughts on a new study by Ernst & Young that showed for every $1 the state spends on film incentives it generates $6 in economic activity.

"If you look at it from the state level, we get back about 28 cents on the dollar from the checks we write to the film industry, so there's a significant loss to the state in terms of revenue from doing that," Snyder said, looking through a state budget lens. "It's not just a tax credit — it's literally writing checks for those amounts in a very difficult budget environment."

Snyder said he doesn't think the state has been fiscally responsible, given the amount of tax credits it has been doling out. Despite the cuts he aims to make, he said the state already has billions of dollars in tax credits it must honor over the next two decades.

"I don't think the average person understood how much money that is," he said. "Just the tax credits we've already issued for the next four fiscal years, 2012 through 2015, is $2 billion. And we have credits that are several billion dollars more that go through 2032."

Snyder talked about his plan to increase state revenues by $900 million by taxing the pensions of senior citizens. Michigan currently is one of only four states in the country with an income tax that doesn't tax pensions. Snyder said senior citizens make up about 13 percent of the state's population today, and that figure grows close to 20 percent over the next 20 years.

"So you have a situation where you have a significant portion of your population not paying tax today and having that grow to a much larger percentage," he said. "So who's going to bear the burden of that? It gets shifted to younger people and everyone else."

Continuing along those lines, Snyder framed the tax increase on seniors as a way to keep young people in the state and ensure that everyone is paying their fair share.

Snyder was asked if a Wisconsin-like struggle is in Michigan's future. He said it shouldn't be, but there is a need for employee concessions.

"Our goal is to work through collective bargaining in a positive, constructive way to achieve those goals, and I believe we should be able to do that," he said.

Snyder pointed out the state still has about $47 billion in debt it needs to address. He said his proposed budget for the next two fiscal years includes slightly more than the minimum payment on the state's post-retiree health care obligations.

"Just the post-retiree medical obligation in our state is $14.5 billion," he said. "By including that payment, finally making a minimum payment on our credit card, it drops that number by $5 billion if we consistently make that payment. That's planning for the future."

Snyder said he plans to take a hard look at the personal property taxes that businesses pay on equipment later this fall. His executive budget proposes an elimination of the Michigan Business Tax to be replaced by a flat 6 percent corporate income tax.

"If you look at business taxes, the MBT was the No. 1 target, but the No. 2 target is the personal property tax because it causes capital misallocations and it's not a fair tax, so we do need to address that," he said. "The reason we didn't do it specifically (in the governor's budget proposal) is because it's more a local tax, and so our goal is we're not going to tell the locals what to do, but we want to partner with them on coming up with a better long-term solution."

Speaking before Snyder today was economist George Fulton, a research professor at the University of Michigan and director of U-M's Center for Labor Market Research. Fulton offered an upbeat forecast for job growth in Washtenaw County in the coming years.

"It's now apparent we're facing a slow climb out of a deep hole," Fulton said, pointing to expected growth in the economy over the next few years.

Ryan J. Stanton covers government and politics for Reach him at or 734-623-2529. You also can follow him on Twitter or subscribe to's e-mail newsletters.



Mon, Mar 14, 2011 : 12:29 a.m.

If rick is cutting .so why is the raise of 15% to public building given? check out the budget. The department of Human Services is HIRING 500 Student ....


Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 10:02 p.m.

So Mr. Snyder believes that cutting tax rates for businesses will lead to more economic growth. But will it lead to more jobs? or just more profit for the owners? I'm afraid I don't have the same faith in this formula that he does. - K.

Fred Steadman

Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 10:56 p.m.

Rick Snyder is the king of special interest! How on earth can you look at your self in the mirror after saying that. To tax the people that are hardly able to hold onto their mortgages is horrific. You can not spin this….. When are people going to wise up and realize that you don't have to complicate economics with a bunch of Hyperbole? The simple fact of the matter is that Far right wing corporate fascism is bad. Far left wing pure socialism is bad as well. The answer lies in the mid ground where balance is king. If you look at history you will clearly see that the republican party consistently strives to create policies that shovel the lions share of the available money into FEW pockets. Every time this happens as we have seen over the past ten or so years the economic balance of disposable income is destroyed We stop having a viable tax base and consuming goes in the crapper. REAL small business (NOT the small business of the fantastic imaginations of republican politicians) fold up… Again as we see on every street corner. In comes a depression - economy so bad that it takes socialist style public works projects to put money back in the hands of the people; the real driving for of our local economies. Supply side economics works ONLY on paper. It assumes that corporations are going to invest in the US economy and work force. More times then not they do nothing of the kind. More times then not they stuff their hefty tax brakes into their own pockets or invest in third word projects. Not to long ago the average CEO was overjoyed to make approximately 11 times what its average blue collar worker makes. They were rich. And grateful! Now its hundreds of times what its average blue collar worker is taking in. Companies used to be loyal to our nation and to the local areas that made them great and prosperous. Now its all about the bottom line with no other considerations what so ever.


Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 1:21 p.m.

Fred: Nice rant - I'm not sure how lets you create such a long post but kudos. The problem is that the MBT reform that Snyder is proposing will help the small businesses you are for and hurt the large corporations that you are against.

Basic Bob

Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 4:02 a.m.

There were plenty of good public works projects that resulted from the government stimulus during the depression. But what really revived the economy was austerity at home (think rationing) and massive production of manufactured goods to support the war effort. Don't forget that Henry Ford's workers didn't spend their money on Chinese garments, Korean DVD players, Japanese luxury cars, and Arab oil. We won't Walmart-shop our way out of the recession.


Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 2:40 a.m.

Ok Fred, but where did the money come from for public works projects during and after the GReat Depression? They came from taxes and the government pumping that money into the economy.

Fred Steadman

Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 10:56 p.m.

And to the bozo's that still say idiotic nonsense about how much the top 5%ers pay need to realize that our tax codes were set up knowing that people that make a gluttonous amount of money tend to be able to grow that money with little to know effort if they possess a brain the size of a pea. They pay a higher % for the privilege and good fortune to live and prosper in the greatest country on the planet. Talk about Me Me ME! Henry Ford paid his line workers the rough equivalent of what would be $62 dollars an hour. People called him a socialist. That so called socialist kick-started the American Industrial Revolution and don't you forget it! Public works projects dug us out of the great depression and every economic slump since. Wake up! TAXES do not generally make a rich man poor. They make poor men homless.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 4:57 p.m.

Keep an eye out for Snyder's newest hit man, Roger Fraser. I expect that Fraser will be the behind the scenes advising other city managers on how to get rid of those pesky unions. He will also recommend his buddy, Kerry Laycock, City of Ann Arbor reorg consultant, be hired to advise the Emergency Managers on how to restructure the municipalities to get rid of unions, lay off employees and privatize municipal services with low pay, low wage workers. He will also advise municipality how to cost shift retiree costs to underfunded retirement programs in order to cut pensions and health care when those funds can no longer support all the new retirees.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 9:29 p.m.

Golden Rules! He who have all the Gold, make all the Rules! Never changes.

Rork Kuick

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 9:28 p.m.

I can live with alteration of MBT, and taxing pensions as income, if increased taxes on the richer folks are proposed at the same time, and I don't mean loss of a few tax credits. Like a few others, I do think graduated state income tax is good, and have always wanted that, but that will be difficult. The rich are best able to cough up a bit more is the simple logic that some people willfully ignore. We do it at the national level, right? We could drop the rates on the lowest bracket and raise it at the top. I think it far past time that we had a little class warfare, waged by less wealthy folks who actually can follow the money. We far outnumber the rich, but it is they who have been fighting and winning that war. The question some people ask is if enough people can still think straight. I sure hope so. If not, let's pack our bags.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 7:29 p.m.

God bless Michigan and Rick Snyder!


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 8:33 p.m.

Practicing your acceptance speech?

Wolf's Bane

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 6:36 p.m.

The savings of 1.8 billion dollars will be used as business incentives for his friends at the expense of Seniors and the Working Poor. Thanks Ricky for making my choice about leaving this state so much easier. The State of Amway


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 1:39 p.m.

Goodbye. Please come back when you realize that Rachel Maddow doesn't always have all the answers. Those "business incentives" are the elimination of double taxation on small business owners. If you don't understand it, and Rachel clearly didn't do her homework, then maybe - just maybe - you should try and understand it before commenting.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 5:18 p.m.

Please consider this: <a href="" rel='nofollow'></a>


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:23 p.m.

Ryan: There is a serious misunderstanding of the MBT as evidenced by repeated false comments/arguments in these sections. Maybe it would be helpful to have someone at explain how it works because it seems that, as much as some of us try, our explanations are ignored.

Jim Rogers

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:21 p.m.

I can't help but think that these cuts are the old &quot;Hit 'em where it hurts,&quot; the politician's prelude to tax increases. Obama promised &quot;to go line-by-line&quot; where he knew he could make cuts but turns out he can't cut where it hurts politicians.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 2:51 p.m.

Here is another perspective on how much the new Guv does or doesn't really care about business in Michigan. He gave a speech at the meeting, yet he couldn't be bothered to walk 20 feet down the hallway (literally in the next room) and visit the dozens of Michigan small businesses that were assembled for the Ann Arbor B2B Expo. In troubled times the rich get richer, and only the rich can get elected. Has it ever been any other way?


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 5:15 a.m.

union teachers, public servants, listen up..... this is what rick calls, &quot;Greasing the Skids&quot;!!!!!!!


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:26 a.m.

Here's another &quot;tough choice&quot; from the Millionaire Gov., According to the Detroit Free Press Gov. Rick Snyder's plan to cut business taxes and increase taxes on individuals – including a new state tax on pensions – may be unpopular with many, but it could not be repealed by voters. The 183-page tax overhaul bill, introduced by House Republicans, includes a $100 appropriation that makes it legally immune to a citizens' referendum. "If you and your neighbors feel these income taxes and tax increase are too much, which I believe is true, you will have no right to get together and repeal this law," said House Minority Leader Richard Hammel, D-Flushing. Still think all of this is tough for the Gov? This is yet another effort to destroy your democratic rights just like the Emergency Manager. When will someone start talking recall of the supporters of these tough choices?


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 1:42 p.m.

His &quot;big business buddies&quot; are actually taxed MORE under the proposal. It is small business owners who are already paying tax on their business profits who will see tax relief by not being doubly taxed.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 10:49 a.m.

I'm all for a recall, at this point. He's taking bread off of my table to provide cream &amp; butter for his big business buddies. And puts in a $100 provision to make it voter proof? Can we say &quot;weasel&quot;? Is that acceptable? Because only a weasel would do something that underhanded.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 3:36 a.m.

I could not be more ecstatic and happy for what the Gov is doing. He has far exceeded any trust I had in him previously. When I shook his hand two years ago I saw the twinkle in his eye, you could see he was an honest man, a man of his word and not beholden to anyone. Keep up the good work Rick, the more people you make mad, the better the job you are doing ! Good Day


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 8:31 p.m.

And Bush saw that Putin was a good man when he looked into his eyes.

Wolf's Bane

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 6:38 p.m.

How is the water in the Nile?


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 10:53 a.m.

snoop, I like your choice in beers, but your political ignorance is appalling. Raising taxes on the lower income people to pay for business tax cuts? really? Cutting programs that are showing a return to our beleaguered economy and promoting economic diversity? Really? When I shook his hand a year ago, I saw someone with a sparkle of dishonesty in his eyes. I knew if he became governor, we would all be in trouble. You apparently will never see the hammer that hits you in the back of the head.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:14 a.m.

Yes, that is great policy, divide and conquer! I am wondering, when the dems make you mad, are they doing a good job? Not beholden to anyone? Really?


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 3:08 a.m.

Snyder's so call &quot;tough calls&quot; to close a $1.4 billion state deficit is all smoke and mirrors fueled by a great desire to give a 1.8 billion tax cut to the wealthy which pushes our state debt over 3 billion. This millionaire Gov., who sent Gateway jobs to China created this mess and is betting on the support by the ignorant &amp; haters of public employees, public schools, unions, pass this on the back of the many to benefit the few. The irony is that the folks supporting these efforts will lose their democratic rights to elect officials to run their cities, schools and towns because it's been taken over by an unelected Emergency Financial Manager paid an outrageous fee even though their is some budget crisis. Your public services will be fee-based even though you pay taxes and your public schools are decimated because the qualified teachers have retired, quit or moved and class sizes are big. Police &amp; fire will probably be shared &amp; charged because personnel either retired, quit or moved out-of-state. Your parents living on a pension have asked you for financial support because their pension is now taxed but you can't help much because your contract was dissolved by that Emergency Financial Manager and your tax refund was next to nothing because the tax credits used in previous years have disappeared to pay for tax cuts. You won't care because your Millionaire Gov. richer because those tax cuts have benefited him &amp; his friends and they will use that money to pay for the private school their children attend with a low class size....Then they'll remind you that public schools are wasteful, unions are bad, low-paying jobs are good and they got rid of the unions that you hated so much. ..&quot;one of the things I'm proud to say is we stopped thinking short-term and we stopped thinking just about today.&quot; Yep! Really powerful thinking! How do you like your Gov. now and when your democratic rights are gone?


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 1:43 p.m.

Thank you, Rachel Maddow, for thinking for me.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 2:35 a.m.

What we need is less government not more taxes, the government is too large and too inefficienct. How come we don't hear that?

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 1:41 p.m.

Don't hold your breath, bugjuice. Good Night and Good Luck


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 8:30 p.m.

Please be specific about &quot;too large and too inefficient&quot; instead of repeating mindless and unsubstantiated Republican talking points.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:52 a.m.

<a href="" rel='nofollow'>;feature=youtube_gdata_player</a> Don't know if you will be able to click on this or not, but MSNBC Raquel Maddow has a report on Michigan worth looking at. You might want to throw up after watching it but it really shows the terrible situation this state is in with our gov. proposed &quot;budget&quot;. So much for democracy... (you tube - Michigan is screwed).


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:43 a.m.

I've told you in other posts,corporations rule the world.Resistance is futile.You will be assimilated..


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:07 a.m.

Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder told an audience of 300 local business leaders Notice, he didn't talk to an audience of the working poor or retirees.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:40 p.m.

TC we need jobs, and the working poor cant help with that.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1 a.m.

Let's review: Snyder gives giant corporate tax cut --&gt; Snyder slashes funds to schools --&gt; School districts fall into financial emergency --&gt; Snyder appoints corporate boards as Emergency Financial Managers --&gt; Corporate boards dissolve democratically elected school boards --&gt; Corporate boards run schools. Who needs democracy when you have banks and corporations to run things?


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:08 a.m.

You got it, Floyd.

Will Warner

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 12:46 a.m.

DonBee, its time to reprise your beer-taxes allegory...

John B.

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 11:38 p.m.

Unless you are a white male and make at least $200K per year, you should never, ever vote Republican at the State or National level. It's really that simple. Nothing new there.

Basic Bob

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 12:20 a.m.

I agree, unless the Dems put Virg Bernero or Kwame Kilpatrick on the ballot. Then it's a bit more complicated.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 11:29 p.m.

The top 25% have 3x the wealth of the lower 75%. it makes great sense to squeeze the bottom 50% for more. By the way, the pension tax stops at $45k. That really made sense to me. Canada is looking better every day for retirement.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:10 a.m.

The pension tax stops at $45k? Are you saying that an $80k pension is exempt above 45k?


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:31 p.m.

Guess I need some help understanding something. Under the U.S. Constitution, how can the state give the power to anyone to &quot;dissolve all existing contracts?&quot; I refer specifically to: Article 1 - The Legislative Branch Section 10 - Powers Prohibited of States No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Edward R Murrow's Ghost

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:27 a.m.

Macjoint is dead on; Basic bob has no idea what he's talking about. The Constitution very clearly says states cannot nullify contracts. Chapter 9 is FEDERAL bankruptcy law. Good Night and Good Luck


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:54 a.m.

Found an interesting site re Chapter 9 proceedings: <a href="" rel='nofollow'></a> Looks to me as if R. Snyder may be creating a real can of worms, should he proceed under this approach. Anyone aware of any cases showing how this plays out?


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:23 a.m.

Thanks Basic Bob, but is the procedure you are talking about one in bankruptcy under the federal bankruptcy code pursued in federal bankruptcy court? If so, isn't Michigan's attempt to use its own procedure something different? I'm really asking, not challenging.

Basic Bob

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:53 p.m.

According to federal law, collective bargaining agreements can be altered during a Chapter 9 municipal bankruptcy. The US Bankruptcy law predates the union contract, so bankruptcy does not impair the obligation of the contract.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:38 p.m.

Great point, Macjont. What Snyder has done is illegal. Nevertheless, that has to be proven in court, and someone has to fund the lengthy lawsuits against this corporate power grab. This also why unions are not bad - in fact, they are protectors of civil liberties. In this case, they are the ones who will fund these lawsuits.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:19 p.m.

This power grab is even scarier than the union busting going on in Wisconsin. Since yesterday, not only does Snyder have the power to declare a financial emergency for civic entities like school districts and cities, his appointed emergency financial managers can act without regard to legal contracts and they can even dismiss democratically elected entities like school boards and mayors. On top of this, an emergency financial manager doesn't even need to be a human being - it can be a corporate entity. Imagine the irony - in several months we're going to see school districts declaring bankruptcy after their budgets are slashed by Snyder, and control of them will fall into the hands of banks. The fact that the local official you voted for actually won an election doesn't mean anything anymore. This is not about finances, folks. This is about loss of civil liberty.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 1:50 p.m.

The problem isn't with powers given to an Emergency Financial Manager - the problem is what constitutes an &quot;emergency&quot;. Oh, and what's going on in Wisconsin is far worse than what's going on here. Gov. Snyder is allowing debate on this and has not railroaded the process.

Stephen Landes

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 3:45 a.m.

Maybe if you don't want an emergency manager in your town you should work harder to make sure your city council manages YOUR money better. If you think this is a loss of your liberty maybe you should invest your time to make sure there is no reason to declare an emergency in your town. If you write back that there is nothing you can do because times are tough then you need someone to manage your town for you.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 11:39 p.m.

I did not forget how to take it to the streets. First thing the right wing Nazi's did in Germany was to burn the Reichstag and suspend most civil liberties with an emergeccy order. It's already hard enough to vote that large blocs of poor don't try, I know the right likes that.

Ryan J. Stanton

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:15 p.m.

In related news, Snyder said today he doesn't want any sympathy for being Michigan's governor. <a href=""></a>

David Briegel

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:46 p.m.

Trust me, he won't get any here!


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:13 p.m.

Gov. Snyder is off to a fast start. Where are all the other people in Lansing? Let us remember that everyone pays taxes ,e.g.,cell phone taxes, social security withholding ( pay roll ) tax, fuel tax, license plate tax fees, and all manner of license fees associated with our occupations. Then, of course, there is income tax, federal and state. So all us us have a heavy load. He would be wise to rethink some of what he plans to do. Businesses lost a lot of your money and mine when they were moving fast and free and now they need more and they think they should be free of regulations.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:10 p.m.

I do have to give Gov Snyder credit for approaching our budget woes with reason. The MBT is a horrible way to raise revenue and the personal property tax on business equipment is just weird and causes pain to business. However, removing the earned income tax credit is cruel. Why put more tax on the working poor? Because some people think some other people are taking advantage of the system? What stats prove this? Is it just mean spirit that causes people to want to punish whole groups for the acts of a small percentage? What about those people that can afford high priced accountants and tax attorneys to fiddle with their due? Last year I sat at a wedding table with a multi-millionaire (inherited) and he bragged about how little tax he paid. Using one anecdote I should attack every millionaire for being a cheat, right? Tax investment income if we are gong to tax labor and remove the EITC. I have yet to see ANY proof that lower taxes on investment increases employment.

Jeff Westbrooks

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:06 p.m.

The dead have a perfectly balanced budget. Please don't kill Michigan's future with your luddite mentality, gov'ner.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:53 p.m.

Mr. Snyder -- answer this one! If YOUR kids were in Michigan PUBLIC schools, how ready would you be to decimate their budgets even further???? How can you sit there in your governor's seat, with your kids in private schools, and take away from OUR kids, whose schools have already been cut to the bone? I suggest a mandate that governors and lawmakers who decide on school funding should have THEIR skin in the game. Don't tell me there isn't money -- there IS! If you quit with this business tax cut nonsense, or create a graduated tax rate!


Mon, Mar 14, 2011 : 12:28 a.m.

But apparently Snyder is :( He needs to go. He's not doing his job in a morally responsible way.


Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 7:14 p.m.

I agree with you and would rather pay more in taxes for the services we need. I'm not against a progressive income tax either.


Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 1:42 p.m.

We are doing quite fine in my household. I would like very much to pay a little extra.... what good does it do me to have increased homelessness, poverty and poor education in my community?? For what?? So I can hold onto my little bit-o-extra? Tax me a little more, and those wealthier than me, and let's live in a place we all want to live in. But don't cut the MBT and then cut fundamental services, saying we don't have enough money! How much money we have is a choice. It's one he's too cowardly to make


Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 1:41 p.m.

OK then, I see what you are saying. But in my opinion, the governor has one primary job to do. He must arrange to collect sufficient taxes to pay for the fundamental services that we need in this state. If you want to get rid of the MBT, fine with me. But it needs to be replaced by an increase in taxes somewhere else -- namely, those who won't become homeless by increasing it. Ever since the income tax was instituted in 1862, it was progressive, as it should be. Every study worth it's salt has shown that the working poor put their &quot;extra&quot; money back into the economy, and the wealthy hold onto theirs.


Sun, Mar 13, 2011 : 1:25 a.m.

No, you don't disagree with me 100%, you just don't understand the MBT. Here's how the MBT goes: Jenny Z owns a small business. She employees 10 people. They pay taxes. She gives them health insurance &amp; benefits. She pays use and sales taxes to the State and Personal Property taxes locally. The leftover is net profit and it is taxed at State &amp; Federal levels. The MBT then looks at the gross receipts (not the profit) and taxes her again. It makes no sense as the profit is already taxed! Everyone knows it has to be fixed but it is easier to hide this as a partisan argument. This is NOT a business tax cut, it is ending double taxation. Please look into the MBT before trying to defend it.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 9:41 p.m.

I disagree with you 100%. I am actively involved in the PTO, I volunteer consistantly in the school, I donated to the AAEA. None of this makes one squat of difference in class sizes, funding the arts, adequate funding for supplies, instruction, etc. Cutting business taxes MEANS Snyder can't fund K-12 education. The tax cuts equal the cuts to school funding. That's his choice, and it's morally wrong, wrong for our society. Just wrong.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.

Even had the millage passed, funding Washtenaw County schools does little for the rest of the State. You actually are allowed to pay more and can donate time and money to your children's school. You can help with fundraisers with the PTA. The State doesn't have enough money so we have to improvise. It doesn't matter if it's Snyder or Bernero or Granholm, there just isn't enough for every worthy priority. Snyder has prioritized Medicaid rather than continuing to cut it as was done previously. This is tough medicine - our best hope is that unemployment decreases and with a larger tax base we will be able to restore funding in a couple years. In the meantime, we've all got to tighten our belts.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 7:29 p.m.

YES, I'm willing to pay more! But I'm not allowed to. So, did you vote yes on the millage that failed? It is a prime role of the govenor to fund the schools, a major priority. It's his job to figure out how to do so with taxes.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 7:03 p.m.

Look, I want to fund everything too. Are schools underfunded? Sure. I am willing to pay more taxes to fund things by increasing the current tax rate, are you? What I am tired of seeing is X group saying that I shouldn't have to pay taxes and why can't Y group pay for my services.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 5:29 p.m.

In other words, what is the difference between un-funding something, and eliminating it?


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 5:15 p.m.

while he may not be proposing elimination of public schooling, he IS proposing slashing their already decimated budgets to the point of serious compromise of quality! The detroit schools are looking at class sizes of 60 kids??? Our new superintendent is coming from a great school district in PA, where the state funds the schools at something like 11.5K per kid, if I'm remembering correctly. And MI is somewhere around 7K I believe? And now Snyder wants to effectively decrease that by $700 per kid??? I PROMISE you, if Snyder's kids went to our public schools, and he could SEE up close and personal how strapped they already are, there is no way he'd be doing this. He doesn't care, cuz it's not HIS kids.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 4:51 p.m.

The partisanship of the left is just as bad as the right. The pension tax could be described as a way to prevent further cuts to schools, rather than a giveaway to businesses. The MBT must be fixed because we need small businesses to employ more people to have a larger tax base to pay for public education. The budget proposal addresses the problem and asks legislators (including Republicans who have stymied the process) to solve it..


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 4:49 p.m.

A2anon: I completely agree with you, but Gov. Snyder is not proposing that public education be eliminated or that those who send their kids to private school (why is this even an issue?) should not pay taxes to support publication.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 2:29 p.m.

1bit -- answer this: Do you believe it is in the best interest of our society to have all kids well educated? Or just the rich ones? Is having a well-educated workforce of the future worth our collective buy-in? No?


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 1:52 p.m.

Answer this: do you realize that Gov. Snyder pays for his kids to go to private school and yet he still pays taxes to send your kids to public school?


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:23 p.m.

It is a fact that Snyder pays $17,000 a year for his daughter to attend high school at Greenhills in Ann Arbor. He continues to live in Ann Arbor so that she can continue to go to school there. I hope someone is keeping track of the travel expenses being spent - a Michigan state police officer is making two trips a day! - so this girl can receive such a great education.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:13 p.m.

I think the yearly cost for Greenhills is something in the neighborhood of 14k. Obviously if we reduce the annual spending on public schools per pupil to below 7k we will get similar results as those at Greenhills. This is a simple economic lesson I learned from some conservative friends, if business isn't allowed to pay high salaries to CEO's,CFO's and managers they will get less qualified people, but, if the public sector is paid less we will get better people. Got it?


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:19 p.m.

Where does he think the retred people of Michigan shop when he says we don't pay our fair share. I guess I will start doing my shopping in Ohio so I don't have to pay Michigans sales tax. Ohio would love to have our business.Funny property values going down but our peoperty taxes going up. If our officials in Lansing would take a pay cut the state would save plenty.


Sat, Mar 12, 2011 : 1:53 p.m.

Why should 401(k) income be taxed and not pension income?


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:36 p.m.

Do you not think the working folks are NOT paying sales tax too? And, your property taxes are going up because of the catch up with inflation as it affects values under the Headlee amendment rules. Look at you property tax valuation statement you just received. As long as the taxable value is under the SEV, your taxes will go up because of inflation until they are equal with the SEV. WE ALL do the same.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:29 p.m.

I'm a senior and very willing to pay my share of taxes to the state. When I retired I could never figure out why I didn't have to pay state taxes to begin with. When Snyder puts Michigan on the road to recovery I hope he runs for President oF the United States. We need a real leader there.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:10 p.m.

As to pensions, why should IRA and 401(k) incomes -- which employees fund out of their paychecks -- be taxed when those lucky enough to receive employer-paid pensions are exempt from tax? Many pension recipients have more annual income than those who work . The nature of the way you receive your income is irrelevant; it all spends the same and should be taxed the same. We are smarter than this. Let's look at the facts and then make some rational policies. I applaud Governor Snyder's courage.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:34 p.m.

&quot;Electric chair&quot;? Now the Governor is a Murderer?


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:22 p.m.

Courage? Bwahhaaaa....the man who turns the switch on the electric chair doesn't need COURAGE...he needs to be thoughtless and without any morals.

Bob Martel

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:27 p.m.

FYI, anonymous, for purposes of state income taxes, IRA and 401(k) withdrawals are treated the same as &quot;pension payments&quot; meaning that they are currently exempt from state income taxes up to a limit.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:25 p.m.

Wait until you have to pay income tax on 85% of your SS when 50% is yours to start with.With the wife working and my pension we don't gross in a year what you most likely make in 6 months.Give business a big break and tax the little guys.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:10 p.m.

Everybody needs a little skin in the game. The people you call poor don't pay dime in taxes, in fact most get money back they never paid in. It's about time they get in the game. Delete


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:09 p.m.

The &quot;rich&quot; already pay their fair share. The top 50% of taxpayers in our country pay nearly 100% of the taxes and and most have huge student loans, large child care bills, and long hours to show for it. The top 5% (which is now $150K and over -- not billionaires) pay 53.8% of taxes while earning 30.6% of total income. The bottom 50% of earners pay nearly no taxes -- and many receive credits (i.e. &quot;cash&quot;) at tax time -- &quot;refunds&quot; for taxes they did not pay. The current disproprtionate tax burden is why Governer Snyder's proposal can be falsely cast as a &quot;huge increase&quot; on some while a &quot;smaller&quot; increase on others -- because there is almost nowhere left to go for those at the top and for those in the bottom, anything more than a payment from the state (i.e. a &quot;credit&quot;) is a 100% increase.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 11:17 a.m.

Why don't you stop cherry picking your information. I found where your info comes from and here's something you forgot to add. &quot;8. Do the rich pay more taxes because they are earning more of the income in America? Yes. There's no doubt that the share of total income earned by the wealthy has increased steadily over the past 25 years. Since 1980, the share of income earned by the richest 1 percent has more than doubled, from 9 percent to 19 percent. The share of the income going to the poorest income quintile has declined. Income disparities, in absolute dollars, have grown substantially.&quot; So put away the crocodile tears and stop being deceptive.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:08 p.m.

Snyder is far more sophisticated than his Wisconsin counterpart, Scott Walker. Walker went after middle and working class public employees with a sledgehammer and has sparked a national backlash. Snyder deftly employs a scalpel, using budget problems as an excuse to take over cities. Sounds reasonable but the end will be the same. Cities can threaten unions with the 'emergency managment' takeover, resulting in substantial wage and benefit concessions. Those in the private sector who are bitter about their own wage/benefit losses will cheer seeing the same happen to public sector employees (plenty of that is seen on this site). It becomes a race to the bottom for most of us, leaving Snyder, Walker, &amp; Co. even more entrenched and wealthy at the top.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:07 p.m.

A graduated tax is specifically prohibited by Article IX, Section 7 of the Michigan Constitution.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:34 a.m.

Solution: amend the Michigan Constitution.

John Q

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:06 p.m.

&quot;And to the argument that the rich should pay their fair share, lets discuss accurate information, not emotional statementn. In 2010 the top 5% of taxpayers in the US paid 53.8% of the taxes while they earned only 30.6% of the income. Taxpayers in the top 50% of earners pay nearly all of our taxes, while those in the lower brackets actually receive cash as a &quot;refund&quot; when they paid no tax and collected public benefits. The top 5% is $150K and over, not the ultra-rich -- and most have steep student loans and child care, and long work hours to show for it.&quot; Accurate information? Hardly. People in the lower brackets pay payroll taxes and for Medicare, not &quot;paid no tax&quot; and it deliberately ignores the fact that sales and property taxes fall more heavily on those individuals. If you're an individual and you are making $150,000 a year in income, you're making more money than 95+% of the total population. If you're not rich by that standard, no one is &quot;rich&quot;.

John Q

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 2:19 a.m.

How do people who don't work earn the &quot;Earned Income Tax Credit&quot;? They don't! How many more lies are you going to tell?

John B.

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:37 p.m.

UI is taxable.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:35 p.m.

People only pay payroll taxes and Medicare if they are working. If they are not working and collecting Food Stamps, Cash Assistance, Unemployment payments, or other benefits, they pay no tax and then at tax time they receive the Earned Income Credit and other credits, resulting in more money received at tax time.

John B.

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:59 p.m.

It's now very clear. We need to stop thinking about &quot;I&quot; (the bottom 98% of us) and instead think about &quot;we&quot; (the top 2%). What else can we give to them? Let's see - more taxcuts, maybe? Yeah, that sounds good. How about $1.8 Billion in Michigan, for starters? Sounds reasonable to me. What the heck. The richest 400 people in this country now have as much combined wealth as all of the 150 million citizens that comprise the 'lower-half.' This is a direct result of decades of taxcuts for the rich and business that began with Reagan in the 1980s, and have caused a huge National debt. Is this the country we want for our children (or ourselves)? The best voter is an informed voter....


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:56 p.m.

Thank you Guv for being open and decisive.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 8:25 p.m.

Snyder is promoting class warfare. He's a divider, not a uniter.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 11:24 a.m.

You mean openly divisive.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:36 a.m.

Shame on you Guv for being secretive or at best ambiguous in your campaign and divisive thereafter! You are tearing this state apart.

Go Blue

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:48 p.m.

Doesn't seem that both sides of the equation are being visited with this game plan. Robin Hood in reverse. Steal from the poor and give to those that already have. Why is it that those that have very little to nothing need help and that help is always in contention. And those that have and do not need the help, always fight to get it.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:47 p.m.

It's not a &quot;balanced budget&quot; it's simply a transfer of assets from those who can least defend themselves directly to Mr. Snyder's corporate owners. It's not a &quot;tough call&quot;, it's outright larceny, and the powers granted to &quot;Emergency Financial Managers&quot; who can now depose your elected officials -and dissolve all existing contracts and agreements that your elected officials have made- is nothing less than a revolting subversion of the Democratic process. Contempt!


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:15 p.m.

All is not what Rachel Maddow would have you believe...


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:27 p.m.

Remember that Mussolini's promise was to make the trains run on time - people just needed to sacrifice some civil liberties to help make that happen. He succeeded in making the trains run on time.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:55 p.m.

The Emergency Financial Managers piece is seriously scary. I like to think people just aren't aware and that's why there hasn't been a major outcry about it. Read about it and envision that future...


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:39 p.m.

Let's see, we have a $1.4 billion deficit and Snyder just gave businesses a $1.8 billion break. Hmmmm. Now the working class has to pay for this. The austerity measures (use of emergency managers) that just passed in the Senate yesterday was a pure power grab. Read the bill folks. Scary.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 4:14 p.m.

Actually, DonBee, it's even worse - your friend pays corporate tax on his gross receipts from the business. If the business receives $1,000,000 in revenue but overhead expenses total $999,999 ($1 in profit) then that business is taxed on the $1,000,000 not the $1 actually made in profit. And that $1 in profit is passed, as you noted, to your friend's personal taxes where it is taxed at the Federal and State levels.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 3:14 a.m.

Most of the people who benefit from the changes in the business taxes are folks like my neighbor who owns and truck fixes plumbing. Right now the way the rules work, he has to pay corporate tax on any profit in his business and anything he pays himself is considered profit, so before he can cut himself a check he has to pay taxes. Then he has to pay taxes again on his income. He would like to expand and hire some folks, but right now he is trying to get the capital (read savings) together to replace his 12 year old van and then potentially buy a second and tools for the second truck.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:58 p.m.

Job killing my ass. No income tax in Florida and Nevada. Tell me how their unemployment rates are. If low taxes drive business why isn't South Dakota (rated the best business tax state) the place where all businesses relocate to? Taxes do not change employee needs. Demand changes the need of employees. What intelligent person believes a business will go out and hire new people with the same DEMAND for their product currently just because they lowered the taxes? It just means added profit for the business.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:29 p.m.

He didn't give business a break in the terms you put it in. He changed the way business is taxed . The MBT was a ridiculous unfare and job killing tax. Now we have a simple business income tax. eliminating stupid credits to certain business is good for the rest of us who DON'T get them. And senior , retired people need to pay their fair share so that the rest of us WORKING class people don't have to pay their way. Sounds like WHY I voted for him.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:24 p.m.

Great job Mr Snyder, thank you so much for serving your state! This guy has some real talent, and he has no special intrests just the intrests of the state of MICHIGAN. It is about time some special intrests realize they are not the majority. The majority have spoken, if I was Rick I would not be so kind to those that did not vote for me., a real gentleman he is. God Bless your Rick, you are Awesome, we are turning Michigan around, things are a rolling forward.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 3:13 a.m.

$1 salary, paying for upgrades to his house to meet security levels, and not making the state pay to clean the Governor's house in Lansing, but rather living in his own house. Sounds like benefiting, yes it does. Can you live on a $1 dollar Salary?


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:37 a.m.

No special interest? The guy is among the richest people in this state and is being directly benefited by his policies.

Top Cat

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:22 p.m.

One thing Mr. Snyder has not done is engage in the whiny and juvenile &quot;it's all the fault of my predecessor&quot; litany of our President. It is nice to see an adult in charge.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:39 a.m.

Yes, &quot;kicking the can down the road&quot; is code for Granholm screwed things up.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 10:01 p.m.

Gov Snyder has said repeatedly that the fault lies with with those that came before him, for &quot;kicking the can down the road&quot;. Gov Granholm did not start two wars, leaving them both unfinished and unpaid for.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:20 p.m.

I agree about Snyder, but baffled at your delusion with Obama.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:56 p.m.

Give him time.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:44 p.m.

He doesn't need to. He's got the vast choir of Granholm haters singing that tune for the past 8 years.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:26 p.m.

I agree totally.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:18 p.m.

Thank you Rick for making the tough decisions no one has wanted to make in the past. Yes, this will be painful for many. So would raising taxes to cover the deficit. However, these changes create a better opportunity for businesses to grow and new businesses to start. Without business growth, we can continue to raise taxes and dig ourselves into an ever deeper hole if we want government to provide all things. Economic growth is what we need. I hope all you &quot;tax me more and more&quot; people will maybe one day see the light.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:14 p.m.

Why not a graduated income tax, Rick instead of your grab at the wallet of the Walmart greeter...the working poor? The rich should pay their fair share...oh wait, that's YOU, Snyder. Never mind.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 8:15 p.m.

Seems as though most just want to take from anyone and any business that has become successful. Do well in your business or employment, lose. What's the use in trying to be successful? Just sit back and let everyone else pay your way. Bunch of lazy bums.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 3:03 a.m.

Macjont - Sounds good, on the first dollar of taxable income the tax rate would be 20 percent. By $100,000 the tax rate at the federal level would be 45%. Add in Social Security, Medicaid, and other payroll taxes, and single folks making $12,000 a year would see half of every dollar they make over that level going to the Federal Government. At $100,000 it would be closer to 60%. By $1 million a year each additional dollar would go straight to taxes. No problem with CEOs making over $1 million anymore, the company could pay it straight to the Government. Yes, lets bring back the Eisenhower Level Tax Rates.


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 2:46 a.m.

anonymous Your figures are from 2002 and a little out of date. Much has changed since then.

John Q

Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 2:22 a.m.

&quot;Sorry John I know 2 people who get money back that don't pay a dime, one being my babys mama. The other is self employed and makes plenty.&quot; Please tell me where these people shop where they don't pay sales tax, where they buy gas and don't pay a gas tax and how they live anywhere without paying rent or property taxes. The only people who fit that definition are in prison? Are those your friends?


Fri, Mar 11, 2011 : 1:40 a.m.

grye, fair share? The same graduated rates we had under Eisenhower. Seems fair to me.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:54 p.m.

Anonymous, you really need to learn the state budget versus federal. Quoting statistics on federal taxes is just dumb. It also only talks about income tax. You do realize there are taxes on alochol, sales taxes on clothing, gas taxes, property taxes which are paid int he form of RENT, which are deductible for property owners and not for renters. If Rick is about losing tax credits, then why not talk about that credit for having babies. Why does he get that tax break because he made the CHOICE to have a child? Why does he get a credit for his mortgage? Why does he get a credit for using his cell phone in his business? Why does he get credit for donating to a charity of HIS choice?


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:13 p.m.

To those that believe people that make more money, work harder, is not necessarily true. Majority of blue collar workers, work much harder for their income.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:12 p.m.

Sorry John I know 2 people who get money back that don't pay a dime, one being my babys mama. The other is self employed and makes plenty.

John Q

Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:09 p.m.

&quot;Everybody needs a little skin in the game. The people you call poor don't pay dime in taxes, in fact most get money make they never paid in. It's about time they get in the game.&quot; Still passing off that lie? It wasn't true the last time you said it and it isn't true today. You can't find me one poor person who doesn't pay a dime in taxes. Come on, you said it, now prove it. Even a homeless person with no job has to pay sales taxes. That's not skin in the game? What do they need to give up? The clothes off their back?


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 9:06 p.m.

Everybody needs a little skin in the game. The people you call poor don't pay dime in taxes, in fact most get money make they never paid in. It's about time they get in the game.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:53 p.m.

And a graduated tax is specifically prohibted by the Michigan Constitution, Article IX Sec. 7.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:52 p.m.

And to the argument that the rich should pay their fair share, lets discuss accurate information, not emotional statementn. In 2010 the top 5% of taxpayers in the US paid 53.8% of the taxes while they earned only 30.6% of the income. Taxpayers in the top 50% of earners pay nearly all of our taxes, while those in the lower brackets actually receive cash as a &quot;refund&quot; when they paid no tax and collected public benefits. The top 5% is $150K and over, not the ultra-rich -- and most have steep student loans and child care, and long work hours to show for it.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:47 p.m.

grye, nope. Shared sacrifice. Lets not leave the rich out of the fun. It wouldn't be fair.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:47 p.m.

I don't understand the uproar about taxing pensions; people receiving pension income can be rich or poor. Age is an irrelevant variable as to income and ability to pay. Why should money from a 401(k) or an IRA (which the employee had to take money out of their paycheck to fund) be taxed while money from a pension (which the employer funded for the employee) be exempt from tax? It is a special interest for those lucky few who have pensions and it makes no sense. Money is money and should be similarly taxed.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:46 p.m.

new form of Nazism to be for one person and the &quot;governor &quot; general takes that person out of power and HE appoints his choice for your representative. It no longer matters if you vote. I think that is quite Hitler-esque, myself.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:36 p.m.

Is that a new form of Socialism, why should someone who works harder pay a greater percentage in taxes? They already pay more if they make more I do not feel like that is a regressive tax. Why not raise the tax on Cigarettes again.


Thu, Mar 10, 2011 : 8:21 p.m.

What would you consider fair share? The same percentage for everyone? 5% for everyone under $100k and 50% for everyone over $1M with a graduated increase inbetween? Punish those who work hard? Then why try to suceed?